Should ALL reviews be compared to the Provari?

[generic mutant]

Resistance isn't fixed. That's the point. It's different for different devices / builds, and it changes over time in any given build.

I don't know by how much how quickly, so the latter may not be a significant factor, but the former definitely is.

 

[MorpheusPA]

I don't know how to make this more clear, and there really is nothing complicated about it. Ohms law is ohms law. All portions of the pie chart are equal. That's how he proved his law. When resistance is static, to change power, you change volts. When resistance is fixed, if you change volts, you change power. They are equal. It is the exact same thing. Marketing does not disprove ohms law.

We're aware that they're related via the equation, but that does not make them equal.

Y = X^2 for example. Y is always directly related to X, but X and Y are not equal (except at zero, of course, but even so they're being measured on different axes that just happen to share the same point right there).

It's a matter of design, not of any electrical difference. If I let you set Y and adjust my X accordingly, you can double Y and be assured that Y actually does double. That's handy if what you're doing relies on output-Y to perform a function.

If you're relying on output-Y but adjusting X, doubling Y becomes a more difficult proposition. You have to remember to adjust X upward by the square root of 2 to double Y. That's inconvenient and makes the user think.

Over time, it's not hard to adjust to VV and most of us have done so. For new users, VW is much easier as the reaction at the atty is linear and the little chip in there does the square root of two thing for me to the voltage. They don't have to think about it.

Marketing does not disprove ohms law. Ohms law is proven and can not be disproven. - Further, I'm baffled how it is those who are convinced that VW is different than VV also seem to forget the important part is the first V = variable. Variable is the important part. Otherwise, fixed regulators would have won the day and we wouldn't have all of these wonderfully functional and fancy devices.

Well, actually, I could adjust the equation appropriately and make anything I want the variable to solve for.

Interestingly, I built emergency lights for Christmas from some high-powered LEDs and a multi-input capable source. The amperage is regulated. The voltage can vary anywhere across a reasonable range it wants to (6 to 15 volts input). Light output remains the same, there's no difference in power consumed at the LED.

Another set of gifts involved powering a chip using a voltage far too low for it (in other words, it wouldn't work).

Same with a mod. Ohm's Law may be consistent and predictable for all linear resistors, but our mods don't strictly-speaking work by Ohm's Law. There are microchips in there that are fully capable of being as non-linear as they want, just like the one on my desk. It's clamping its output to 10 milliamps on pin 3 even though the (non-linear) device located there will happily pull down all the amps it can get at the voltage at which it's running (which would destroy it in microseconds). The microchip does not care and is efficiently doing its job, and making my little device do its job without bursting into flame.

So really, I can build you something that varies any part of the equation you want, and produces whatever answer you want.

 

[MorpheusPA]

Resistance isn't fixed. That's the point. It's different for different devices / builds, and it changes over time in any given build.

I don't know by how much how quickly, so the latter may not be a significant factor, but the former definitely is.

It does change over time, but not quickly at all. At least not on mine. My bases start at 2.4 ohms and slowly rise to 3.0 over the course of 2 months or so, after which I drop 'em in the rebuild pile 'cause they taste nasty. My daily go-to device is not VV or VW, I just accept the lower output and it doesn't bother me.

Changing bases could be a problem on VV devices if I accidentally (for instance, not that I do it) pop a very low ohm coil onto my VV set at 6.0 volts because I just finished off an old head. Pop, in this case, goes the weasel. Potentially, anyway.

 

[generic mutant]

It does change over time, but not quickly at all. At least not on mine. My bases start at 2.4 ohms and slowly rise to 3.0 over the course of 2 months or so, after which I drop 'em in the rebuild pile 'cause they taste nasty. My daily go-to device is not VV or VW, I just accept the lower output and it doesn't bother me.
...

I realise that, but long term changes are easy enough to compensate for.

I'm talking about changing as it heats or cools, or even (tenuously) if it gets dislodged, but is still able to fire. No idea whether it's significant at all, I wouldn't like to guess...

 

[MorpheusPA]

I realise that, but long term changes are easy enough to compensate for.

I'm talking about changing as it heats or cools, or even (tenuously) if it gets dislodged, but is still able to fire. No idea whether it's significant at all, I wouldn't like to guess...

Looking at the spec sheet, Kanthal (and Nichrome) don't alter resistance all that much in our working range. Also from the spec sheet, letting things get Out of Hand would be a really Bad Idea (strange capitalization is called for when melting metal may result).

However, being bathed in liquid, the functional range is only to about sixty C. Resistance simply doesn't change that much from room temperature, or even freezing weather.

Dislodging could be interesting. That could range between a partial short to completely detaching itself. Wires tend to do strange things in the latter case, including working intermittently and making strange scents as power arcs between the wire and the contact (if they're close enough). Fortunately, in our case the battery's voltage starts to droop if the amperage drives too high, and I wouldn't expect that an arc could sustain itself.

Partial short is the failure mode with the most potential for issues. Smart mods would pick up the lower than acceptable resistance and stop working...but things could get very interesting on a mechanical.

Fortunately, for purposes of this discussion, I'd expect either a partial short where the resistance is still high enough to work (VW would automatically adjust for that, VV wouldn't), or one where resistance is too low (neither would work, which is a good thing, and both would report it as a short).

 

[six]

but our mods don't strictly-speaking work by Ohm's Law. .

.... *sigh* . Yes, strictly speaking - they do. Electricity is electricity. Ohms law is ohms law. There is no way around that - there is nothing else for it - It's just true. You can say it is not true if you want... but that doesn't make it so. I can say the sky is chartreuse, but it quite obviously is not.

 

[generic mutant]

Looking at the spec sheet, Kanthal (and Nichrome) don't alter resistance all that much in our working range. Also from the spec sheet, letting things get Out of Hand would be a really Bad Idea (strange capitalization is called for when melting metal may result).

Where's zoiDman when you need him?



Thanks for clearing that up.

...
Fortunately, for purposes of this discussion, I'd expect either a partial short where the resistance is still high enough to work (VW would automatically adjust for that, VV wouldn't), or one where resistance is too low (neither would work, which is a good thing, and both would report it as a short).

That's one advantage of VV, I suppose - you're more likely to notice a partial short.

 

[generic mutant]

six:

If you have an audio amplifier, is it more useful to have a volume knob labelled 'amps' or 'dB'.

Why? (assuming it's properly calibrated to the speakers, anyway...)

 

[MorpheusPA]

.... *sigh* . Yes, strictly speaking - they do. Electricity is electricity. Ohms law is ohms law. There is no way around that - there is nothing else for it - It's just true. You can say it is not true if you want... but that doesn't make it so. I can say the sky is chartreuse, but it quite obviously is not.

I would love to hear your explanation of non-linear response in diodes. Please explain why amperage will be 0 at 0 to 0.7 volts, non-zero above that, and on a non-linear curve.

While your atty will always be linear, you have this neato thing called a microchip in between the atty and the battery. Said microchip can moderate power to the atty (which will follow Ohm's Law), but the entire circuit taken as a whole will not exhibit linear response and will not follow the (linear) Ohm's Law. The microchip can clamp power if it wants to, just as a Zener diode can be used to do the same.

Said circuit now follows a non-linear response curve, neatly violating Ohm's Law. The reason it's called a law is that, within its domain, it's a neatly written, handy little equation. That doesn't make it a universal law.

 

[zoiDman]

Where's zoiDman when you need him?

....

Can't Type... Eating Waffles... And watching the Playoffs.

 

[six]

six:

If you have an audio amplifier, is it more useful to have a volume knob labelled 'amps' or 'dB'.

Why?

I don't actually care if the knob is unlabeled. That's been my point the whole time.

But, that said since I just feel like making you think today: My amp volume labels are pre and post. ... and my other amp has drive and master

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - A Provari is Better than French Toast.

 

[MorpheusPA]

BTW - A Provari is Better than French Toast.

Is it? What if you were starving but had sufficient nicotine in your system? Do you still choose the Provari?

What are you, a French Toast hater? You just hate anybody who has French toast when you don't.

 

[generic mutant]

I don't actually care if the knob is unlabeled. That's been my point the whole time.

But, that said since I just feel like making you think today: My amp volume labels are pre and post. ... and my other amp has drive and master

If you were changing your speakers for others with different outputs relatively frequently, would it not be an advantage if your amp could set and maintain volume between them? To calibrate itself to each set of speakers, and accurately report output in dB? (hypothetically - I know it doesn't work like that )

Would that be marketing, or a useful advance?

 

[MorpheusPA]

I don't actually care if the knob is unlabeled. That's been my point the whole time.

But, that said since I just feel like making you think today: My amp volume labels are pre and post. ... and my other amp has drive and master

Gotcha. You don't care, I do, although I personally relabeled my volume control so it goes to 11. Just for kicks.

It's not a problem, we're allowed to have different opinions on what we prefer. As to which is simpler...I'll introduce a new user with the lower learning curve device first. We can get to the advanced stuff later. Unless they're an electrician or electronics whiz, in which case it really won't matter and they can handle either easily.

 

[MorpheusPA]

If you were changing your speakers for others with different outputs relatively frequently, would it not be an advantage if your amp could set and maintain volume between them? To calibrate itself to each set of speakers, and accurately report output in dB? (hypothetically - I know it doesn't work like that )

Would that be marketing, or a useful advance?

Both. Just because it's marketing doesn't mean it isn't also useful. Look at Swiffers. Heavily marketed--and the best advance in dusting technology since the microfiber cloth.

Strangely, on that front, I still use Guardsman occasionally and a cloth. It was good enough for Grandma and it does make the wood look nice.

 

[six]

Said circuit now follows a non-linear response curve, neatly violating Ohm's Law. The reason it's called a law is that, within its domain, it's a neatly written, handy little equation. That doesn't make it a universal law.

If you are seriously implying operation of a PV at zero Kelvin or you are implying the use of vacuum tubes to convert high current in PVs, then I think I'm just going to add you to my ignored users list right now. You've crossed the rubicon.

 

[Funk Dracula]

VV vs VW. Well, since they are the exact same thing, I think they should be directly compared. I'm still not really sure what convinced people that VV and VW are different. Math proves they are not.

Dude. The difference is having to adjust the voltage when putting a new topper on, and not having to. COME ON!!!! Stop arguing that the output is the same, of course it is. DUH!!!

PROVARI = I put on a carto-tank. Okay. I check the resistance, and adjust the voltage to an optimum setting where I want my desired output "power" to be. It's a pain in the ... to check the resistance and change the voltage with the Provari's wonky one button menu and system compared to, I don't know, EVERY OTHER VV/VW device out there. Even the VAMO craps all over the Provari's interface. NO COMPETITiON.

VW DEVICE = I put on a caro-tank. I have the Variable Wattage set to the "power" I like my vape to be. The device checks the resistance for me, automatically, and adjusts the voltage for me, automatically, in order to output my desired "power". Ohms law and everything.

Yes, varying your voltage is varying your wattage. You clearly not comprehending what the feature "Variable Wattage" means on a PV. In the case of a Provari, it literally means 20 something clicks and up to 12 seconds of waiting and wonky menu/system fiddling before a vape that yes, results in the same power output.

 

[MorpheusPA]

If you are seriously implying operation of a PV at zero Kelvin or you are implying the use of vacuum tubes to convert high current in PVs, then I think I'm just going to add you to my ignored users list right now. You've crossed the rubicon.

Uh, no, although I'm sure it'd be fascinating to see why you think that. Tubes got replaced by transistors for the most part (except in some radio stations) because transistors are solid state and switch a lot faster. They're also perfect examples of non-linear response as they're essentially back to back diodes. Voltage across the collector and emitter doesn't matter, voltage at the base (or lack thereof) does, and power flow is non-linear in that case as well, hence the concept of "gain." Or, why your audio system works and why you get distortion when you don't respect those limits.

All the neat charts and graphs posted about mods and devices also show non-linear response, most notably when they top out the wattage regardless of your voltage setting. That nice little microchip clamps the power output to avoid blowing the MOSFET that's providing power to the atty (or to protect the battery). Lower the resistance, raise the voltage, it doesn't matter--wattage will not change.

PVs also do voltage pump as well, a very common thing to do. So in that sense, yes, since the only way to go higher than 4.2 volts from even a fully-charged lithium battery is to boost the voltage. Voltage pumps are quite commonly used to protect the user from high voltage or to enable the use of a higher-voltage device (such as a nixie tube or PV running at 6 volts) from a lower voltage source, such as AA batteries.

 

[MorpheusPA]

Dude. The difference is having to adjust the voltage when putting a new topper on, and not having to. COME ON!!!! Stop arguing that the output is the same, of course it is. DUH!!!

This, and better said than I did it. You can check me out of the conversation, said conversation just got capped.

I can't speak to the Provari menus--my cousin took care of it for me--but can say that my VAMO's very easy to use. The Provari, from observation, seemed more involved. I'm sure you get used to it...but I choose not to have to get used to it.