Slow Cooker Extraction of Tobacco and Tea

[billherbst]

There is some confusion for me here, as steep can mean the tobacco steeping in the solvent, or, after the tobacco is removed and you just have a tobacco extract, the tobacco extract can be steeping with added nic/pg/vg. So there are 2 steeps. The first one finishes when the tobacco plant material is seperated from the solvent. The second one begins when nic/pg/vg is added and it will usually be pretty rough for the first couple of weeks, reasonable after a month, and even better after 2 months or more IME.

Ian,

Actually, there are three steeps, each of which affects the amount and balance of flavors in the profile:

Steep #1---during the maceration
Steep #2---after the extract is filtered and bottled
Steep #3---after the juice is mixed

Obviously, the first steep is critical, going from an unflavored solvent to a flavored extract. Much of the essential character of the extract is determined by the maceration process, where the flavor components of the tobacco gradually seep into the solvent. How long the tobacco should steep in the maceration is affected by numerous variables: type of tobacco or blend (single-leaf, cigarette/RYO, pipe blend, or cigar), freshness, moisture content, cut, type of solvent or solvents used, temperature of the maceration (room-temperature or heat-assisted), etc.

The second steep, however, is also very important. Letting the filtered extract "age" in the bottle alters its flavor profile, sometimes dramatically. Extracts made from simple-soak macerations start out emphasizing flavors other than the tobaccos themselves, especially sweet flavors applied to the tobacco. These other flavors come in three categories: first, as water-based sprayed-on "casings" (that seep into the tobacco) which can be applied to the growing leaves before harvest, after harvest, or during processing/curing; second, alcohol-based dipped "toppings" (that remain on the surface of the tobacco), applied either during or after curing; and third, additional flavorings added during the final blending of the tobacco.

Virtually all retail tobacco is cased---not necessarily as flavoring, but to minimize unwanted characteristics of the tobacco when smoked, such as harshness or excess bite. Some tobaccos are then topped with other flavors. When the extract is freshly filtered, these other flavors are at their strongest. Over time, however, sweeter flavors diminish in the extracts and the pure tobacco flavor tends to strengthen and move forward in the flavor profile.

That same process occurs in the mixed juices with the third steep, especially in complex mixes that add others flavorings. Typically, the third steep produces the least dramatic results when the juice is mixed only with the natural tobacco extract, but somewhat more obvious when the mixed juice is a "hybrid" of the tobacco extract and other natural or synthetic non-tobacco flavorings.

 

[Bunnykiller]

I always considered a steep the action of soaking the solids in a liquid, once the solids are removed it ages...

 

[Ian444]

Bunny, yes I agree, but it could be argued what size solids are still inside the supposedly solid-free juice? Yesterday I did find on one of my older juice samples a small dark spot near the bottom of the small sample bottle, after trying to scratch it off the outside, I shook the bottle, and realized it was sediment. It was an early extraction, filtered through cotton wool.

Aaahhh, thanks Bill. You give me renewed faith in the DIY forum, thank you!

For the last month I have been pre-mixing PG/VG/nic and letting that steep too, since I vape unflavored nic some of the time, and I also use it to mix with extracts, the nic content comes out lower but close enough doing it this way.

Also mixing the steeped PG/VG/nic with the "Steep #2" has worked well recently, but it was only the first result, which was good, it tasted like at least 2 weeks head start.

 

[regal55]

I had such good luck with my first extraction hot plat with a pan of water at 110F for 48 hours, it just keep getting better as it steeps, it is Newminster Superior, Cavendish center with Virginia. It may become my all day vape.

I'm also trying to make something close to ether vapes Eclipse Cavendish, I think it has sweetener added but I have no idea the base. I ordered several samples of Cavendish tobacco and nothing seems close. Any clues?

 

[DSmooch]

So quick update...
The extracts have been sitting for a week. They are really dark.
got a few samples and it looks like a 5% mix with these gives me something very similar to a 20% mix using MVJ extract.
I got this Dunhill morning pipe to compare (I loved this one from MVJ). Sure, the juice need a few weeks, but Its there.
I wonder if they cut it really... and I'm also wondering if cutting my extracts already with 3/4 VG would be any good.
I mean If 20% of you juice is already steeped, it may seem logical you'd get a faster end product than with a 5% mix ?! but I'm not a chemist. Any thoughts?

NB: I got in average 90ml of extract, I'd get 360ml after cutting! insane...

 

[regal55]

So quick update...
The extracts have been sitting for a week. They are really dark.
got a few samples and it looks like a 5% mix with these gives me something very similar to a 20% mix using MVJ extract.
I got this Dunhill morning pipe to compare (I loved this one from MVJ). Sure, the juice need a few weeks, but Its there.
I wonder if they cut it really... and I'm also wondering if cutting my extracts already with 3/4 VG would be any good.
I mean If 20% of you juice is already steeped, it may seem logical you'd get a faster end product than with a 5% mix ?! but I'm not a chemist. Any thoughts?
NB: I got in average 90ml of extract, I'd get 360ml after cutting! insane...

Well I'm a Chemical Engineer that had a few years of life as a chemist. My thought is MJV extracts are light in color because of extremely good filtering, not a lesser extraction. Probably with pumps at around 160 psi and bag filters, I honestly have the opinion that a French press has a lot of juice slip by the filter and that the big turkey basters do a better job. MVJ's light flavor is because they don't use much, you can select extra along with sweetener and get a pretty strong net. Again this is only speculation as I haven't seen their operation.


On a separate note what are thoughts of turning the water bath off at night, slightly dangerous (at least to the wife) to leave it plugged in at night, what are the thoughts on this?

 

[DSmooch]

You're probably right but not sure how "extreme" the filtering is though. I'm using the kind of setup that can usually go over a month with no intervention. Nextel on ss rope is pretty solid. With their NETs, 2 tanks tops and the gunk is twice the one I usually get after a month. So I'd say it's still pretty messy.
Filter bags, pumps... googling "liquid filtering" has got me nowhere really. So what kind of machinery are we talking about here, could you put a name on it or the system used in your opinion?

 

[Bunnykiller]

Well I'm a Chemical Engineer that had a few years of life as a chemist. My thought is MJV extracts are light in color because of extremely good filtering, not a lesser extraction. Probably with pumps at around 160 psi and bag filters, I honestly have the opinion that a French press has a lot of juice slip by the filter and that the big turkey basters do a better job. MVJ's light flavor is because they don't use much, you can select extra along with sweetener and get a pretty strong net. Again this is only speculation as I haven't seen their operation.


On a separate note what are thoughts of turning the water bath off at night, slightly dangerous (at least to the wife) to leave it plugged in at night, what are the thoughts on this?

Since I was using a crockpot and was more worried about evaporation of the bath water, I would turn off the crockpot and then wrap the CP in a couple of bath towels... made for some nice insulation... kept the water well above room temp for over 6 hours... ( 130F to 90F drop in 6 hours, about 6 degrees drop per hour)

 

[regal55]

You're probably right but not sure how "extreme" the filtering is though. I'm using the kind of setup that can usually go over a month with no intervention. Nextel on ss rope is pretty solid. With their NETs, 2 tanks tops and the gunk is twice the one I usually get after a month. So I'd say it's still pretty messy.
Filter bags, pumps... googling "liquid filtering" has got me nowhere really. So what kind of machinery are we talking about here, could you put a name on it or the system used in your opinion?

Binkings pseumatic pump, FSI SS filter vessel, Graco back pressure regulator, SS piping with swept lines. About $25k investment.

 

[regal55]

I had such good luck with my first extraction hot plat with a pan of water at 110F for 48 hours, it just keep getting better as it steeps, it is Newminster Superior, Cavendish center with Virginia. It may become my all day vape.

I'm also trying to make something close to ether vapes Eclipse Cavendish, I think it has sweetener added but I have no idea the base. I ordered several samples of Cavendish tobacco and nothing seems close. Any clues?

The more this H&H berry nice steeps the more it becomes like Eclipse, similar enough but different.

 

[regal55]

I've found this H&H berry nice that it burns easily. I have to keep the power down around 8 watts, same for the elclipse other was there is a burnt flavor with the aerotank.

 

[MikeNice81]

Binkings pseumatic pump, FSI SS filter vessel, Graco back pressure regulator, SS piping with swept lines. About $25k investment.

I have never asked her, but after talking to Diane I would be amazingly surprised if she ever invested $25,000 in her filtering system. I would more likely believe 2.5 micron or lower filter media and a buchner funnel with a vacuum flask and small pump. Johni in the big tobacco thread uses 2.5 micron (I believe) and lets gravity do the work. His stuff is only a couple of shades darker than MVJ and nearly as easy on coils. I went through 2ml and the wicks had hardly changed colors. I could have ran another 1ml - 1.5ml through the setup easily.

She mixes at 20%, so I know it isn't a lack of extract being added.

ETA:
Another thing about MVJ is, the extractions are simple "cold" soaks. So, she doesn't have to worry about casings and toppings caramelizing and darkening the juice.

 

[DSmooch]

Mike I don't know what setup you use. But I mainly use TNSs with ekowool on ss rope.
I mean with this kind of setup, I took a 2 weeks vacation and back, kept on vaping another 2 weeks until I noticed a slight drop in performance. That's a month, just filling up, changing batteries, without ever looking at the inside of an atty.
But THIS is with regular juice of course. 50/50 10% nic and ~5% VZ or capella flavoring. That's the comfort I'm used to after 3 years of vaping.

I have several MVJ juices, ranging from cigar to pipe, all shades. The atty hardly lasts a day! I'm saying this same setup that lasts a month with a regular juice. At first I thought I'd be ok with the maintenance (tobacco flavors and all, there's got to be a price right?) but wow... didn't expect daily torching. I bought a s*t load of tobaccos, made 3 NETs and haven't touched them yet. I figured if MVJ juices do that to my attys, what will my cooked (not soaked) coffee filtered extract will do to them?

I was remembering chemistry classes, and this is addressed to the chemists here... isn't there some kind of simple osmosis setup one can think of for this? or Would a 2.5 micron filter give a better result than MVJ?
If I can't get my setup to last at least a week, unfortunately I'm gonna have to cut my losses here...

 

[Scotsman6783]

I actually have been eyeing a vacuum filtration kit for filtering my extracts. Can pick one up for about $60

 

[Bunnykiller]

I actually have been eyeing a vacuum filtration kit for filtering my extracts. Can pick one up for about $60

where?? all the ones Ive seen are in the 500-1000$ range ( unless you are using he hand pump)
Ive been looking at electric powered ones...

 

[Scotsman6783]

Hand pump version they have them on ebay

 

[Bunnykiller]

ahhh okay... the sytems Ive been looking at have the electric pump and that alone runs nearly 200-350$

 

[Scotsman6783]

ahhh okay... the sytems Ive been looking at have the electric pump and that alone runs nearly 200-350$

Sorry, i realized i should have specified.
The pump, funnel, and flask are $48 and they want almost $15 to ship. They have bigger units of course, but for my current purposes, the $48 set up is suffecient.
I figure 1 filter through a fine mesh. Second filter would be standard issue coffee filters. 3rd would be under vacuum through the lab filters that come with the kit. This should take quite a bit of particulates out of the finished product.
I currently have three extractions steeping now: Black and Mild Jazz cigar( for a friend) Berres Brothers Highlander Grogg coffee, and Celstial Seasonings Chai Tea.

 

[billherbst]

Sorry, i realized i should have specified.
The pump, funnel, and flask are $48 and they want almost $15 to ship. They have bigger units of course, but for my current purposes, the $48 set up is suffecient.
I figure 1 filter through a fine mesh. Second filter would be standard issue coffee filters. 3rd would be under vacuum through the lab filters that come with the kit. This should take quite a bit of particulates out of the finished product.
I currently have three extractions steeping now: Black and Mild Jazz cigar( for a friend) Berres Brothers Highlander Grogg coffee, and Celstial Seasonings Chai Tea.

I considered the lab filtering kits on eBay/Amazon---the kind with the hand pump vacuums, flask, and funnel. They seemed the perfect solution. Then I read the customer reviews on Amazon, and sentiment was equally divided between loved it and hated it. Like 50 five-star reviews and 50 one-star reviews. The superlatives were as expected---works, easy, inexpensive, efficient, etc. The rejections were equally telling---either the hand vacuum didn't seal, pulled insufficient vacuum, or the pump broke soon after purchase, with many accompanying criticisms about shoddy manufacturing quality, with the usual amount of China-bashing.

I decided that a plastic hand pump was not a crap shoot I wanted to risk. At the very least, I thought, a metal pump was a good investment. The favorite seemed to be the Mityvac MV8000/8010, which is made for bleeding automotive brake systems. I'd have needed to build my own kit with an additional flask and funnel. And then there was filter paper. Yes, many of the eBay kits come with 10 filter rounds or something like that, but most didn't specify the pore size. When I looked into the cost of 2.5 micron filter paper, I was taken aback. That stuff ain't cheap.

So, since I already had my 12oz. French Press, I went with what was for me a less expensive solution of buying the 18 sq. ft. of polyester felt filter pad for $20 from McMaster-Carr. I made that decision with considerable trepidation, but it's worked out well.

If you get one of the vacuum-filter kits, I hope it works perfectly for you! It's a cool idea. I just didn't want to risk $60 on something that might or might not work, where dependability was also unknown.

 

[Scotsman6783]

How well does that polyester filter work out?