So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[Stubby]

Boy, you guys are the life of the party! Gives a guy really something to look forward to. At least Christmas is almost over for another year.

I don't know how much longer I can keep up this war on cigarettes. If I can't win I might not want to keep fighting.

Naw, just a few grumpy scrooges letting off a bit of steam in this damn cheerful holiday season. The reality (speaking for myself) is that snus is very satisfying 95+% of the time. It's just that 5% that has to be worked through.

Even if it's not 100% its good enough. And what are the other choices? Quitting nicotine is not even on the list. A great majority of the time snus is doing everything I could ask for.

 

[a2dcovert]

Naw, just a few grumpy scrooges letting off a bit of steam in this damn cheerful holiday season. The reality (speaking for myself) is that snus is very satisfying 95+% of the time. It's just that 5% that has to be worked through.

Even if it's not 100% its good enough. And what are the other choices? Quitting nicotine is not even on the list. A great majority of the time snus is doing everything I could ask for.

That is what I am hoping for. My getsnus order should be in tomorrow.

Christmas is a depressing time for a lot of people. I, like others have said, don't like all the commercialization that has dominated that holiday.

 

[Mister]

I do believe snus has all that I need to live a normal life, however, some of the baggage of an addiction always tries to grab some attention. ... Sometimes the line's hazy, but when self-analysis kicks in it becomes much clearer when a want has fought a deperate battle to disguise itself as a need.

Very well said TV!

Since my last smoke a few weeks ago my want has tried a few disguises. Its favorite one is "You're done with them now, let's have just one to show that it doesn't make any difference and tastes bad now."

It is a somewhat strong want at times but I think that I'm getting what I need from vaping + snus. There is at least one Y-factor we don't understand yet. It is either less strong than the X-factor for me or it is something with a really long half-life. (I pray it isn't the latter.)

At the risk of causing confusion, maybe the unknown stuff should always be called the X-factor? And what snus and WTA provide might perhaps now be called the A-factor? (alkaloids)

 

[Stubby]

TropicalBob,
I'm pretty sure mine has nothing to do with Holidays. But, I am looking at the last couple of days where I started taking more snus, almost doubling because it felt like the right thing. I have to wonder after today, could I be readdicting myself to higher WTA...hmmm - just wondering so I'm watching that, if that is even possible and maybe it is.

I go along with DVap's idea that we reach a set point with nicotine/WTA and it doesn't change. Stress can be a strange beast. I often don't even know I'm in a stressful period until I'm out of it. I always used more nicotine when I was under stress, or a bit tired, and that hasn't changed with snus. Once I am out of it my nicotine use goes back to normal.

For me I think I can get caught up in a type of loop. I definitely function better with Nicotine/WTA then without. So if I'm a bit stressed I'll do a bit more then normal and it may help some, so I do more, and then.... It's not helping. It has it's limitations. Much better for me to find a way of reducing the stress levels and then the cravings fall away. I really don't think it's changed from my smoking days as the same type of thing happened with cigarettes. I just wasn't monitoring my intake as closely.

 

[DVap]

Been a bit busy.

TB, no intent to have a go at you on the whole nicotine placebo issue. Just exceedingly skeptical of any such claim that someone might make.

 

[whimzkool]

Well, all I can say for certain, is that the 24 mg. placebo is way too strong for my faux light-weight self, what with all the faux nausea I was getting. I much prefer the 8-12 mg. placebo. Now, where can I get my hands on some faux alkaloids?

 

[Vaporer]

That would best be found in faux snus.

The holidays are the most stressful time of the year, depressing, for most. Many start right after Thanksgiving and dont end till New Years.
Stress is a demon you may not even see coming.
Let's face it, nothing will ever replace a cigarette, period. It delivers faster than anything we have and after a big dinner we could have that quick double. We are talking here abt many yrs of the same ritual/habit/addiction. Not an easy thing to over come so quickly. It took me 38yrs to get here, I don't expect to be out in 6 months. I'd like it to be a comfortable as possible though and we've come a long way.

It's something we need to learn to deal with, establish new habits to replace the old. Day by day situations and seasons change. Very easy to get blindsided.
This is the worst time of the year for me too. Time to learn what is needed to stay ahead, not get down because we fell behind for a bit. Wasn't fun, but it passes and like most things lessens with time. Or, at least it should as most things do.

I took my Discreet, all flavors, and put them in one tin so I didnt know what I was getting. Made it interesting. Yes, I vaped/snused more and just wrote it off. At least I'm not smoking! I got out 3 diff tobacco flavors I like and wandered through them all. Anything to break the routine. I went online and treated myself to some new tobacco flavors for my flavorless from Flavorart. Happy Vaper - Canadian Quality Electronic Cigarette/Personal Vaporizers and DIY Smoke Liquid

Just don't give in. As time passes we'll slide over the little bumps and get more used to it which will make the big ones easier the next time. We're on new ground here. Gonna take a little time to get our feet planted but it will come and I'm sure new things will come along and be developed that will help even more.

 

[Madame Psychosis]

Boy, you guys are the life of the party! Gives a guy really something to look forward to. At least Christmas is almost over for another year.

I don't know how much longer I can keep up this war on cigarettes. If I can't win I might not want to keep fighting.

Gives a young person so much to look forward to, to boot...

I can't wait to try snus....C'mon, Swedish postal service....

OTD, glad it's your favorite day of the year. I'll be happy now that all the stores are open and I can get some Noalox for my HV mod to make it run smoother. I just about busted my finger and overdid the nicotine trying to stay away from the cigarettes yesterday (family hates the smell and my habit, but usually I still smoke ~5 cigarettes a week to take the sharpest edges off).

On the plus side... my new endocrinologist (who's also the medical director of the whole health plan) turns out to be pro-e-cigs. ("There's no way they are worse than cigarettes. ... Keep doing what you're doing...just stay off the cigarettes.")
Bottom line, I think doctors could be some of our best (and most respected) advocates in this fight. They're at least capable of reason and of looking at the scientific literature. They're not culture warriors by trade, like the legislators.

Happy Boxing Day.

 

[sunset]

I go along with DVap's idea that we reach a set point with nicotine/WTA and it doesn't change. Stress can be a strange beast. I often don't even know I'm in a stressful period until I'm out of it. I always used more nicotine when I was under stress, or a bit tired, and that hasn't changed with snus. Once I am out of it my nicotine use goes back to normal.

Thanks Stubby and DVAp, That is good to know that those that have gone before me already have insight into this. I really was wondering if I might have undone something by adding more snus, then creating a whip lash of intense cravings the next day- whew, guess not.

I got going a different direction this morning, because I swear it wasn't until I ate dinner that the intensity of the cravings disappear, whereas vaping and snus didn't help. But, I'm sure it was something new I had or at least I think so...now I need to find out what it was.

So I don't thread drift anymore, I'm going to start a new thread around Foods that help with Cravings...it's got my curiosity.

 

[a2dcovert]

I think that the key to our success is to have the medical community involved. Problem is that BP & BT have so much money to lose if the e-cig or another type of smoking cessation product succeeds. Everytime I go to my GP it's very hard not to notice that while I am in the waiting room, usually 30 to 45 minutes, that 3 to 4 BP sales reps visit with loads of samples. That's what is competing with a search for a real solution. I need to find a doctor who is dedicated to healing. My search will begin shortly after the first of the year. I'm going to also look for a new cardiologist who doesn't drive a Ferrari.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Vaporer made a good point, for me it's a 31 year addiction that started in my formative years. I'm sure that's the case with most of us. Some of us needed the maoi action from birth, some through later trauma, or simply disabled our bodies own abilities through abuse of nicotine, but I think it's safe to say the majority got hooked at an early age. It could take a very long time to turn that around if it's possible at all. As Mister says, we get the "A" factor with snus, maybe there's still a missing "X" factor. I'm not sure if it's in the "wants" or "needs" column, yet, but I feel it can remain under my control. Sometimes it may be a screaming savage gnawing at its shackles, but the snus with a 36mg vape will keep it restrained. Even if it becomes painful, I know it'll pass. I am in control now, unlike before WTA liquid and snus. I was never mentally rock solid to start with (the "Twisted" moniker was given me at the age of 19 and I spent a large part of my life re-earning it....damned dirty bikers) and the lack of cigarettes threw a wrench in my self-improvement program. Snus puts me back where I need to be. Sometimes it takes a little more self-discipline, but it does work. Cigarettes managed my concentration and emotions in 15 minute time frames, sometimes less. I'll never have that with snus and e-liquid and it's hard for me to not desire that intensely at times. Through TBob and the like, I've learned much, so I still have the upper hand that my dad didn't, nor his dad .

I think that the key to our success is to have the medical community involved. Problem is that BP & BT have so much money to lose if the e-cig or another type of smoking cessation product succeeds. Everytime I go to my GP it's very hard not to notice that while I am in the waiting room, usually 30 to 45 minutes, that 3 to 4 BP sales reps visit with loads of samples. That's what is competing with a search for a real solution. I need to find a doctor who is dedicated to healing. My search will begin shortly after the first of the year. I'm going to also look for a new cardiologist who doesn't drive a Ferrari.

Good luck, a2d. They're out there, and enough of them on our side could go far in tipping the scales. BP and BT are probably our biggest nemeses, I feel the FDA has many "string pullers" that truly care about what they do for the general public and are only concerned about the facts. I also feel majority of the "decision makers" are bought by industry lobbyist. Take it as you will .

 

[Vaporer]

I doubt we ever really get rid of it all, but I do think the road will smooth out a lot with time.

a2d, I showed my cardiologist my PV and told him I quit smoking. He asked to see it in action , in the exam room, and wanted to see all the functional parts. He knew of them and had never seen one. Then he wrote me a script for a Nicotrol Inhaler "just in case" since I mentioned then possible ban. He was aware of it too. So, those Dr's are out there. If you knew this Dr, its the last reaction I'd expected from him. He hates cigarettes and I just figured he'd feel the same abt e ones. Not so!

 

[DVap]

Vaporer, et al..

The whole tobacco issue is certainly a complex one, and there is a point to which the whole "tobacco control" movement serves a useful purpose. Trouble is that for every individual who is doing good work on tobacco control, there seem to be 10 tiresome busybodies hard at work doing what tiresome busybodies do. It's to the point where open-minded researchers and doctors can't do the things they would normally do to help for fear of being labeled tobacco puppets, and that label really doesn't need any proof behind it to be applied to someone, the mere accusation is all it takes.

What sets one person apart from another? Why can I choose to quit smoking for a decade and not think about cigarettes the whole time? We've been discussing this for some time here and fitting a few of the pieces in place. There are a lot more pieces out there. Fruitful research/discovery will have to happen in spite of the powers arrayed to keep us in the dark...

 

[a2dcovert]

I just hope I can find a doctor who understands the WTA effect on my brain.
With that along with the other ingredenience that make me "me" so that I can find myself without tobacco. I don't think this should be rocket science considering how long mankind has been smoking tobacco.

I'm shocked at what I have learned from you guys, shocked to realize that what you are doing was not done long ago by the scientists who should have given this a much higher priority. Money is only part of the equation. The attitude that we are participating in a lifestyle that causes diseases which could be prevented by simply giving up that lifestyle. Kind of like the opinion originally adopted about AIDS. A lifestyle induced disease which can simply be elminated by changing one's lifestyle.

The windfall that could be generated by simply developing a system to successfully allow someone to break the tobacco addiction. It could be worth billions. But what do they give us? NRT's that don't work at all and Chantix which doesn't work very well if at all. Their TV adds state that Chantix has a high success rate at 60 days. I don't doubt that, I would like to see their figures for 6 months or 1 year. I bet they have them, their just keeping that info to themselves. They make more money pushing pills to cure illness which in most cases simply treat symptoms. There is a lot more money to be made by treating symptoms. A cure would kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

 

[DVap]

Very well said TV!

Since my last smoke a few weeks ago my want has tried a few disguises. Its favorite one is "You're done with them now, let's have just one to show that it doesn't make any difference and tastes bad now."

It is a somewhat strong want at times but I think that I'm getting what I need from vaping + snus. There is at least one Y-factor we don't understand yet. It is either less strong than the X-factor for me or it is something with a really long half-life. (I pray it isn't the latter.)

At the risk of causing confusion, maybe the unknown stuff should always be called the X-factor? And what snus and WTA provide might perhaps now be called the A-factor? (alkaloids)

Good points, Mister.

As TBob has pointed out, the active ingredient in smoke is smoke.

Be it nicotine liquid, snus, WTA liquid, or whatever, none of these things create the chemical soup that combustion does.

The production of WTA takes advantage of alkaloid chemistry, and thus effectively isolates the alkaloids present in tobacco to the exclusion of all else. Just because tobacco alkaloids are known to be psychoactive, it doesn't follow that alkaloids are the ONLY things in tobacco (or in tobacco's combustion profile) that are psychoactive.

We've gotten past the popular (and clearly wrong) notion that it's all about the nicotine, and we need to be careful not to fall into similarly myopic thinking about tobacco alkaloids.

I'm currently envisioning (but not seriously considering) a test where tobacco is exhaustively extracted with both polar and nonpolar solvents to leave the tobacco stripped of anything seemingly interesting. Then the stripped tobacco would be thoroughly dried and smoked. It would probably taste like ..., but I have to wonder if it would retain some effect... any effect.

Part two of this hypothetical experiment would involve re-introducing WTA into the stripped tobacco at 2 grams WTA per 100 grams of stripped tobacco (via a WTA/solvent soak with later stripping of the solvent).

One can imagine that this might reveal some interesting empirical data, but this is one hit I'm not willing to take for the team... I don't want to smoke, period.

 

[sunset]

I also feel majority of the "decision makers" are bought by industry lobbyist. Take it as you will .

TV, I totally agree with that statement. I heard over the weekend on a talk show how it was the lobbyist from big tobacco companies were behind the tax increase on 'roll your own' tobacco. It use to cost a $1 , now it's $25.

They want to see the little guy fail and it wasn't the government wanting/thinking to increase tax (which is what I thought), but the lobbyist behind it.

 

[TropicalBob]

Their argument, Sunset, is that government regulations need to "level the playing field." It's their preferred argument.

"If you tax us at some incredibly excessive rate, then tax our competitors at the same rate." RYO was a competitor to commercial cigarettes and didn't have the profit margins, so it got hit with a tax to level the resulting cigarettes with commercial packs.

The same arguments are used against e-cigs. Why is okay to let these nicotine delivery devices (which is precisely what the FDA called real tobacco cigarettes) go untaxed while penalizing users of real cigarettes? Big Pharma argues the same: Why were we required to do extensive and expensive testing for our NRT products that deliver nicotine, yet these e-cigs have no such testing submitted and approved?

Even the wearer of the thickest rose-colored glasses can see some fairness in those arguments. The playing field today is not level. My bet it is ... it will be leveled.

 

[a2dcovert]

TV, I totally agree with that statement. I heard over the weekend on a talk show how it was the lobbyist from big tobacco companies were behind the tax increase on 'roll your own' tobacco. It use to cost a $1 , now it's $25.

They want to see the little guy fail and it wasn't the government wanting/thinking to increase tax (which is what I thought), but the lobbyist behind it.

I had been big into ryo for several years. It was very obvious that this new tobacco tax was engineered directly at the ryo market. I'm almost sure that the BT lobbiest were rewarded for some unknown plot against this industry. A few merchants have survived but who knows how long it will take for congress to tighten the loop hole they are now using. The new law aimed to making it illegal to ship tobacco by USPS will likely take another toll on this industry.

Even the wearer of the thickest rose-colored glasses can see some fairness in those arguments. The playing field today is not level. My bet it is ... it will be leveled.

TB I think you are right.

 

[a2dcovert]

As TBob has pointed out, the active ingredient in smoke is smoke.

Be it nicotine liquid, snus, WTA liquid, or whatever, none of these things create the chemical soup that combustion does.

I'm afraid that this is the bottom line.

 

[Vaporer]

I'm afraid that this is the bottom line.

That may be the bottom line for the delivery side.
As with most things, there are 2 sides.
What we are looking for is the needs side.

One doesnt have to equal the other and will be diff for each person.