FDA So what might really happen with regulations/bans? Should we be stocking up?

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

I tend to be one that believes that hardware, specifically mods, will be difficult to regulate. A mechanical mod is just a tube with a switch that can be used for anything... First, I think it could fall under the "accessory" definition that is excluded from regulation in the docs anyway. Second, a vendor need simply add a flashlight with a 510 threaded connector on it, and now its a flashlight... yeah, skirting, but how do you prove it? Mod batteries (e.g. 18650s) are used for all kinds of things, including Tesla cars and high-powered flashlights, so no risk of those going away.

Its more hazy on the VV/VW mod and atomizer front. Can you regulate a RBA/rda? Until the user builds it themselves (with hundreds of build options available to that user), it does nothing. So, how would that approval process work exactly?

The crux of all of this, for certain, is the eliquid and nicotine. Nicotine is what is driving the deeming regs anyway, as its derived from tobacco. So, no doubt that it will be regulated if the deeming regs are approved.

Well since the paper and filler material on a cigarette is considered a tobacco product, I would assume that RBA/RDA's will as well.

I agree with you on eliquids -specifically those not tobacco or menthol flavored, They've got a big bullseye on them since they've already been prohibited in for use in cigarettes. (Cause only kids like blueberries)

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

My sentiments exactly!

If they wanted to kill e cigarettes they should have done it years ago. It's now grown into a huge market that's both creating jobs and keeping money flowing. E cigarettes aren't going anywhere in the USA. There's just too much at stake.

Where we really need to focus is in keeping it possible for any "average Joe" to take a few thousand bucks and turning it into a decent business that supports his/herself, his/her family and the local community. Every American should have the opportunity to improve their lot in life and right now e cigarettes make it very possible for most anyone to do that.
Here's to helping keep it that way!

I hope you're right however another genie that was out of the bottle was online poker--and the guv corked that right up at the height of it's popularity and revenue.

And that was only poker and not (shudder) "tobacco".

Edit: BTW the FDA did try to kill ecigs years ago before they were given "tobacco authority" and before most people had even heard of an ecig.
They sued NJOY for trying to sell personal vaporizers (i.e. a medical device).
NJOY beat them by saying ecigs weren't a medical device or a nicotine replacement therapy but....a tobacco product.
Which they now have authority over.

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

Step 10

US DISTRICT COURT

Is there any legal means or grounds to prevent these rules from going into effect once they are published?

Or did you just spell it out?
District
Appellate
Supreme

and done.

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

So if there is a Real Possibility that e-Liquids would be Restricted to Only Face-to-Face Sales. Why is No One (but Me) talking about it?

Seems like there are 10,000 Posts about SE and Grandfather Dates for Hardware. But Very Few Regarding e-Liquid Face-to-Face Sales and or Nicotine Limits.

Isn't e-Liquid Regulations the Immediate and Most Dramatic Threat?

And Can't e-Liquid Regulations/Restrictions be Enacted hours after the FDA Rules have Been Finalized?

I agree dude.....BT already lost the battle to put flavors in cigs and it's organized and got bucks. Flavors entice kids to smoke and develop a nicotine addiction ya know.

That's why I wonder where BIG FLAVOR is in this whole debate.
They've just been handed an enormous potential market that never existed before.
BIG FLAVOR is like the Holy Ghost....everywhere.

If I recall, they seem conspicuously absent in the FDA proposal.
Is this because they got themselves excluded or already know that future ecigs will only be tobacco & menthol?

 

[Kent C]

Is there any legal means or grounds to prevent these rules from going into effect once they are published?

Or did you just spell it out?
District
Appellate
Supreme

and done.

US District court has been their biggest hurdle so far. The case against them was so tight, they decided not to go higher. I expect more of the same.

 

[zoiDman]

Is there any legal means or grounds to prevent these rules from going into effect once they are published?

...

Isn't that the First Question that has to be Asked? Are there any Legal Grounds to pursue a Legal Acton?

Seeing that we Don't know what the FDA is going to do. Seems like we have a Cart before a Horse.

 

[dragonpuff]

Isn't that the First Question that has to be Asked? Are there any Legal Grounds to pursue a Legal Acton?

Seeing that we Don't know what the FDA is going to do. Seems like we have a Cart before a Horse.

I agree. I am about 99% certain that the deeming regulations will be revised at least once more before they take effect, given all the punctuations throughout it with "FDA seeks comment on blah blah blah..." I doubt that the revisions will be major or favorable to us in any way, but when they are revised they may open new means for the e-cig industry to challenge them in court.

 

[Kent C]

Isn't that the First Question that has to be Asked? Are there any Legal Grounds to pursue a Legal Acton?

Seeing that we Don't know what the FDA is going to do. Seems like we have a Cart before a Horse.

That's like saying one is putting the cart before the horse, when someone says 'the Sun will rise tomorrow'. He did say 'once they are published' but of course, to you, that's an opening to argue the point

 

[zoiDman]

That's like saying one is putting the cart before the horse, when someone says 'the Sun will rise tomorrow'. He did say 'once they are published' but of course, to you, that's an opening to argue the point

Not sure how we would know if there is a Legal Basis to do something until the FDA Publishes what they want to do?

Perhaps you can Answer Krashman Von Stinkputin Question?

We would All Love to hear it Kent.

 

[Kent C]

Not sure how we would know if there is a Legal Basis to do something until the FDA Publishes what they want to do?

Perhaps you can Answer Krashman Von Stinkputin Question?

We would All Love to hear it Kent.

I've already laid out the course, elsewhere. It has to do with the RFA and the Executive order 12866. FDA thinks they complied with them and all indications say otherwise.

 

[dragonpuff]

I've already laid out the course, elsewhere. It has to do with the RFA and the Executive order 12866. FDA thinks they complied with them and all indications say otherwise.

I'm glad you mentioned this. As I've stated in a few other threads, I've recently returned from a 4 year hiatus and thus missed a lot of the earlier discussion on the regulations (I have asked in a few other threads about this going to court but no one responded - presumably because it had already been discussed before I returned in July). I looked up both of these and it looks like you've got something going here thanks Kent.

 

[SmokinRabbit]

There's a lot of this I haven't wrapped my head completely around, but I have a simple question.

Is it possible that ejuice will still be available in flavors, only without nicotine? Is nicotine the big-bad-wolf in the FDA's mind?

Is it possible we could still get all our favorite flavors, just with 0mg nicotine?

Would it then be possible for us to buy the nicotine separately and add it ourselves to our favorite flavors?

 

[bigdancehawk]

I've already laid out the course, elsewhere. It has to do with the RFA and the Executive order 12866. FDA thinks they complied with them and all indications say otherwise.

RFA = Regulatory Flexibility Act. HERE is a good summary.

There is no simply no way the FDA has complied with the RFA.

 

[bigdancehawk]

There's a lot of this I haven't wrapped my head completely around, but I have a simple question.

Is it possible that ejuice will still be available in flavors, only without nicotine? Is nicotine the big-bad-wolf in the FDA's mind?

Is it possible we could still get all our favorite flavors, just with 0mg nicotine?

Would it then be possible for us to buy the nicotine separately and add it ourselves to our favorite flavors?

I don't think anybody can give you a definite answer to those questions. It's not so much a "big bad wolf" question, but rather what Congress has authorized the FDA to regulate. The FDA only has authority to regulate "tobacco products," defined in the enabling statute as follows:

"any product made or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption, including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product (except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product)."

This includes nicotine from tobacco plants, and all nicotine used to make e-juice is derived from the tobacco plant. I understand that it's probably not economically feasible to extract it from other plants or to synthesize it.

There is a difference of opinion as to what the phrase "component, part or accessory of a tobacco product" means. The statute doesn't make that clear. Unfortunately, an argument can be made that by excluding "raw materials other than tobacco" from "component, part or accessory," Congress effectively included finished products that do not contain tobacco, providing they can be fairly characterized as components, parts or accessories.

I think it's fairly certain that you will have no problem buying PG, VG and various food flavorings separately, as those products have much more widespread use than in e-juice and would probably be regarded as raw materials other than tobacco. I think the FDA would have a very hard time preventing people from mixing them together and selling the mixture. You might have more difficulty getting suitable nicotine. Time will tell.

 

[bigdancehawk]

So, how much longer will small manufacturers continue to spend time and money developing new products and perfecting existing ones when they may not be able to sell them legally in the USA and in a number of other countries a few years from now?

 

[wv2win]

..........................

Would it then be possible for us to buy the nicotine separately and add it ourselves to our favorite flavors?

The FDA is not that stupid. They know that nicotine is the "choke point".

 

[SmokinRabbit]

The FDA is not that stupid. They know that nicotine is the "choke point".

So nicotine would become unavailable completely? I mean how can they ban pg/vg + flavor when the stuff is so widely available. Seems to me ejuice without nicotine would be pretty hard to restrict.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[wv2win]

So nicotine would become unavailable completely? I mean how can they ban pg/vg + flavor when the stuff is so widely available. Seems to me ejuice without nicotine would be pretty hard to restrict.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Did I say anything about "0" nic eliquid? If you are part of the miniscule group that vapes "0" nic eliquid, you might survive without a problem. For the vast majority of current vapers and all of the current smokers looking for a means to stop smoking, "0" nic eliquid is not the answer to the problem.

 

[zoiDman]

I've already laid out the course, elsewhere. It has to do with the RFA and the Executive order 12866. FDA thinks they complied with them and all indications say otherwise.

Maybe you could give a Brief Overview of what you have Posted elsewhere.

Just for those who may Not be as Enlighten. Or may have Missed It.

 

[zoiDman]

There's a lot of this I haven't wrapped my head completely around, but I have a simple question.

Is it possible that ejuice will still be available in flavors, only without nicotine? Is nicotine the big-bad-wolf in the FDA's mind?

...

Mr. Zeller has been asked Numerous Times about e-Liquids that are 0mg. Or the Possibility of a e-Liquid that contains Nicotine that was Derived from some Other Sources besides Tobacco Plants. And his answers have been Consistent.

If an e-Liquid contains No Nicotine from Tobacco Plants, the FDA does Not Have the Authority to Regulate it.