Stainless Steel mesh, Oxide discussion.

[Projectguy]

The "Oh the memories" original Zen~ thread.

Okay boys and Girls I'm coming up for air. Thanks to the good people on the Zen~ - Family Reunion thread I was able to did this up that's page 8,481 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ds-featuring-zenesis-pv-8481.html#post5442909

Originally responded to by Zen~ 02-28-2012, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by BadThad
Stainless steel mesh contains chromium and nickel. Has anyone discussed that here yet? I've been thinking about an alternative wicking material. What are the other options?

What guage of kanthol wire is recommended?

Thanks

You can use silica or Nextel ceramic. The correct ga is 32 and it too, contains nickel and chromium, as does every carto ever made, and atty as well.

Not much but a start and obviously it was an issue that people were thinking about one year ago at least.

 

[pmos69]

I just wish he would provide more detail as to what he found.

He found loose particles that would easily detach from the wick. A sort of 'dust'. He showed it.
What is it? He doesn't know. Apparently, nobody does.
Be it Iron oxide, carbon, chromium oxide, plutonium or peanut butter, everybody would be better off just knowing what it is.
It's just that.

 

[Boden]

Hi Boden,
Thanks for putting the time and thought into this. The question I have is whether hexavalent chromium would result from some light torching of a wick. From what you've posted I would have a concern about torching a wick to red hot, but I'm thinking a light flame pass over wouldn't be an issue. Will the lab tests have a comparison gradient to check that out? I'm thinking it may allay some concerns about the wicks in general.

It would cost a small fortune to test all the possible variations. I am working with a new lab as of today (the other one was jerking me around and the samples I had sent previously were too old) I am going to make up new samples and send them in a few days.
The new lab sample rate is only 50$ per sample (so that is good) and the turnaround should be much faster. I will submit 3 samples first, One heated to 600degF one heated to 1200degF and one to 1800degF to mirror my first crude test.

I am thinking about making this a group project and anyone who wants to submit a sample to the lab can do so. PM me and I will give you the contact information at the lab and a project name. I won't be able to do this until tomorrow so please be patient.

 

[gdeal]

Is it possible to somehow put the layer of aluminum oxide to work at insulating from SS mesh?

Cool...see my earlier post #56 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...teel-mesh-oxide-discussion-2.html#post8597138

Cyrus thinks its glucose, Boden say its diol. lol.... What ever it is, its non-conductive.

 

[Nicotinologist]

LOL!

I guess you missed my post about being proactive and trying to find an alternative wicking material

I'll give it a look.

Good point.. I believe the best alternative wicking material is a high porosity ceramic material. I tried searching for it in China via Alibaba. The ones I found are much too large. They use them in some electronic room deodorizers. It cost so much money for me to have them custom built because the minimum order si in the thousands of pieces. They can manufacture them to fit the genesis such as the DID and also whatever shape or form you need.
What I had in mind is a tube that is threaded on the outside so that the wire will be wound right into the grooves neatly.

 

[Cyrus Vap]

Cool...see my earlier post #56 http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...teel-mesh-oxide-discussion-2.html#post8597138

Cyrus thinks its glucose, Boden say its diol. lol.... What ever it is, its non-conductive.

The horse never said it was gloocoze!

 

[Bmays]

What about a bamboo diffuser? Kinda crazy but hey its natural.

 

[junkman]

Yes, but the test was crude, that is why I have sent and am sending new samples to a independent lab for a refined test.

So what did you test find specifically?

 

[junkman]

If it is likely to form Cr(IV) at these temperatures I wonder why many sources such as SSINA: Stainless Steel: Composition/Properties

Say things like this :

HIGH TEMPERATURE PROPERTIES

Stainless steels have good strength and good resistance to corrosion and oxidation at elevated temperatures. Stainless steels are used at temperatures up to 1700° F for 304 and 316 and up to 2000 F for the high temperature stainless grade 309(S) and up to 2100° F for 310(S). Stainless steel is used extensively in heat exchangers, super-heaters, boilers, feed water heaters, valves and main steam lines as well as aircraft and aerospace applications.

Without even a mention of Cr(IV) formation?

 

[Boden]

I wonder about industrial ovens? Are there limits on their temperature because of the danger of Cr(VI)? Or are the temps required actually at or near the melting point?

The OP has made a provocative statement about not giving a wick to his enemies, but has not provided any details from testing to support that attitude.

I am not saying he doesn't have evidence somewhere, but to make these statements and run off without further comment is not acceptable in my view.

Hey Junkman,

You are absolutely correct. I do have evidence and information but not enough, that is why I started this thread and why I am sending more samples to a lab. What I do know is enough to make me cautious and I would not recommend to anyone, even my enemy, the use of a heavily oxidized SS wick at this time.

I am sorry that people are getting so jumpy but there is nothing I can do about that.

I do not like being the bearer of possible bad news... Quite frankly this sucks. The problem is that I can't do this alone. So here I am sticking my head out on the chopping block. I will be very happy if the results come back negative and I am wrong or if someone can prove me wrong. I actively seek that.

 

[junkman]

Hey Junkman,

You are absolutely correct. I do have evidence and information but not enough, that is why I started this thread and why I am sending more samples to a lab. What I do know is enough to make me cautious and I would not recommend to anyone, even my enemy, the use of a heavily oxidized SS wick at this time.

I am sorry that people are getting so jumpy but there is nothing I can do about that.

I do not like being the bearer of possible bad news... Quite frankly this sucks. The problem is that I can't do this alone. So here I am sticking my head out on the chopping block. I will be very happy if the results come back negative and I am wrong or if someone can prove me wrong. I actively seek that.

I appreciate the investigation. I just didn't like the post about enemies without tellin your friends details of what you found!

I do suspect based on the digging I have done, that the temps necessary to get Cr(VI) are much higher than the normal service temperatures of stainless steel, i.e. it isn't mentioned anywhere because at the temps required to create Cr(VI) the stainless fails for other reasons and is not usable.

Of course, the service temps are below melting, and we know that Cr(VI) forms when stainless is melted. Therefore, my suspicion is that as long as we stay below the service temps for stainless, we are OK. That number appears to be north of 1700F, maybe significantly north.

But, we do want to be safe, so just keep in mind that there appears to be evidence that 1700F is tolerable. At the same time, there is no need to hit the wick with a butane or propane torch. For me, I will continue to use it but will only do juice burns and work a little harder to get a working coil.

 

[Starik]

I just bought a ZAP and an AGA T2. I haven't received them yet. Should I return them when they arrive?

 

[Boden]

So what did you test find specifically?

I used a Diphenylcarbohydrazide chemical method test for trace amounts of CRVI. The problem is that the test doesn't tell me if it's 1 µg/L or a million.

If you want to try it yourself: Hanna Instruments HI3846 Chromium VI Test Kit for 100 Tests: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

 

[Bmays]

I just bought a ZAP and an AGA T2. I haven't received them yet. Should I return them when they arrive?

Not at all. You can oxidize if needed with just a few simple juice burns. No need to worry.

 

[Envithyx]

Hey Junkman,

You are absolutely correct. I do have evidence and information but not enough, that is why I started this thread and why I am sending more samples to a lab. What I do know is enough to make me cautious and I would not recommend to anyone, even my enemy, the use of a heavily oxidized SS wick at this time.

I am sorry that people are getting so jumpy but there is nothing I can do about that.

I do not like being the bearer of possible bad news... Quite frankly this sucks. The problem is that I can't do this alone. So here I am sticking my head out on the chopping block. I will be very happy if the results come back negative and I am wrong or if someone can prove me wrong. I actively seek that.

I think that it's great you are actively seeking answers and I give you for taking the risk associated with being the OP and investing $ into the research.

 

[Boden]

I just bought a ZAP and an AGA T2. I haven't received them yet. Should I return them when they arrive?

Why, they will work with all kinds of other wicks in the meantime. Wait until we figure this out before doing anything rash.

 

[CASEACE79]

No arguing about that, but maybe it's an answer to the wrong question.
Would you be vaping if it was just as dangerous as smoking? My take is most people didn't turn to vaping looking for a different way of killing themselves.
Looking into these issues is much different than running around and yelling fire. If there's something dangerous in this, it should be known. If there's not, it should be known also.
If it's in any way dangerous, we'll look into alternatives. Simple as that.
No need to panic: It's not like we're out of coffee or something like that.

I agree. Being out of coffee would be cause for panic. I agree we need to know either way. I think we really need to test the vapor going into our lungs more than anything else though. Testing the powder or even the juice won't prove anything. I just found it funny that the same people who didn't care for years are now doing private research to find out if something may cause us even the smallest long term damage. And all of this is also making the assumption that vaping is healthier than smoking in the 1st place. We all believe it is and logic and science are pointing toward us being right, but not a single one of us has vaped long enough for us to actually know exactly how dangerous or healthy it really is. We as pioneers are the guinea pigs for future generations. Plain and simple. I'm ok with that because it's something I believe in.

 

[rotohammer]

If you want to try it yourself: Hanna Instruments HI3846 Chromium VI Test Kit for 100 Tests: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

I just bought it. I'll try it on pieces of mesh flame heated and coil heated. Looks like the kit should give an approximate concentration depending on how the sample is tested. I'll have to put some thought into the sample preparation.

 

[Bmays]

Deleted.....

 

[rotohammer]

When I dry burn my coil, I leave the wick in place, and it glows orange After googling a bit, my take is that I'm only creating the safer chromium oxides by heating the mesh. I'm looking forward to the test results!

If my mesh tests positive for hexavalent chromium, I'll just have to switch to platinum mesh