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Likely you will need to test your water while you are at it. I guess it is in a lot of drinking water.
I appreciate the investigation. I just didn't like the post about enemies without tellin your friends details of what you found!
I do suspect based on the digging I have done, that the temps necessary to get Cr(VI) are much higher than the normal service temperatures of stainless steel, i.e. it isn't mentioned anywhere because at the temps required to create Cr(VI) the stainless fails for other reasons and is not usable.
Of course, the service temps are below melting, and we know that Cr(VI) forms when stainless is melted. Therefore, my suspicion is that as long as we stay below the service temps for stainless, we are OK. That number appears to be north of 1700F, maybe significantly north.
But, we do want to be safe, so just keep in mind that there appears to be evidence that 1700F is tolerable. At the same time, there is no need to hit the wick with a butane or propane torch. For me, I will continue to use it but will only do juice burns and work a little harder to get a working coil.
It also forms when brazing is performed, the temperature range for that is 1000°F to 1700°F depending on filler material. For NI brazing of SS the temp is 1225-1500degF.
http://www.boydmetals.com/Cr-Ni-Mo Alloyed Stainless Grades.pdf
Page 28 http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/...sted Resources/GuidetoBrazingandSoldering.pdf
Ok This is really confusing. The Hanna test is not that sensitive to detect minute amount of CRVI. Can you post specifically what results you obtained with your test on each one of your samples?
Not really but you could make a Aluminum mesh wick and anodize it. It would be chemically inert and non conductive.
From what I've read, the heat released hexavalent chromium is in vapor form. Flame heating stainless would also vaporize the majority of chromium oxides, except for the micron thin protective layer thats bonded to the surface. Since no one has specifically tested stainless in the way we prepare it, its a coin toss at this point.
so if our years of smoking dont still kill us of lung cancer 20 years after quitting we're all going to either develop demensia or develop tumor growth from the chromium in our wicks? Or the lung deteriorating properties of our custard and butter flavored juices? I need to read through this thread. interesting stuff 1st 3 pages.
Boden
Everyone just wants answers, and unfortunately, it sucks being you right now.
Your initial post, as it appeared to me, was a simple request for information from anyone else who had seen the same crumblings. It seems to have snowballed on you, and you are scrambling for answers now.
This thread has been good for everyone, because it brought to light a Potential Problem. So it seems that what needs to be taken from all of this is, just don't Torch Burn your Mesh to the extent you may have in the past, until more is known. Safer ways have been suggested for the meantime.
The question of our Kanthal (or NiChrome) has been brought up, in relation to your initial question, and seems to have been answered, at least to MY satisfaction, and you are still looking for your definitive answer on SS Mesh.
If I could help you financially, I would, as I know this is getting expensive for you - financially, emotionally, and psychologically.
So people, don't PANIC, and do things a little differently than you may have in the past. From the responses to this thread, I see no need to abandon SS Mesh altogether - at least not yet.
Do we want (and need) more answers? - Yes.
Do we need to run scared and turn to things that are not tried and true, and could be even may be even more hazardous? - I don't think so.
Has anyone thought to offer Financial Aid? ...As I'm sure Boden would likely Never Ask.
I'm still waiting for the second batch of lab results to come in. I fear that a sample size that would be conclusive and comprehensive under all the possible variations of alloy and temperature treatments is too large for me to afford. At 200$ american per sample this is getting pricy. What I do know is that the chemical composition of the oxides on the outside of the mesh is primarily composed of CRIV CRV and CRVI.
Understand that I am heating each wick then rolling it in my fingers like you would to tighten it up a bit, this provides enough friction to loosen some of the oxide in powder form into the liquid. Try it, torch a wick then over a piece of clean paper roll it a bit and see what comes off. (Do not inhale any of the powder that comes off, I am wearing a mask for this experiment)
View attachment 175653
Here I took the same piece of mesh and re-torched it, rolled it in my fingers for about 2 seconds and put some distilled water on it, the pics speak for themselves.
View attachment 175652
View attachment 175651
You couldn't pay me enough to vape that liquid.
The temperature to which the mesh is heated is directly proportional to the amount of each oxide that shows up in each sample. I've found no CRVI in samples that I heated in a oven at 600degF for 20 min. That seems to work the best and is the safest bet so far. Samples I heated to glowing red (+1300degF)... I wouldn't give to my enemies.
Another thing I'm testing is after oxidizing the wick, soaking the wick in vinegar for a few days then rinsing in distilled water. This should reduce any CRVI to one of the lower oxide states.
Honestly, I'm done with SS mesh, It's just not worth it and some of the ceramic and glass fiber options are just as good and without a doubt safer.
If anyone has any ideas please post them. I'm actually thinking of getting some aluminum mesh rolling it up and anodizing it. Theoretically it should be almost perfect non conductive mesh.
A.Jay,
Aluminum is only reactive in the presence of a relatively strong acid or base, weak organic acids such as those found in foods generally have little or no effect on aluminum. E liquid is pretty PH neutral so no worries there. Think of all the aluminum beer cans out there. Ever used aluminum foil? Alloys 1200, 3003 and 5005 Aluminum are food safe.
I have a question based upon the last statement in the first paragraph in the above quote. You state that you know, that the chemical composition of the oxides on the outside of the mesh consists primarily of CRlV, CRV, and CRVI. Was this statement based upon an actual submitted sample, and that sample's returned lab result, or literature about stainless steel? I'm a bit confused on what's known from your testing, and what's being quoted from literature.
Thank you for your help.
Thanks you for bringing this to our attention. Subscribed, but will read future posts with my hands covering my eyes, only being able to read through the small cracks between my fingers. Like when I went to see horror movies as a youngin! haha
When I dry burn my coil, I leave the wick in place, and it glows orangeAfter googling a bit, my take is that I'm only creating the safer chromium oxides by heating the mesh. I'm looking forward to the test results!
If my mesh tests positive for hexavalent chromium, I'll just have to switch to platinum mesh
Yet another unknown - Platinum Mesh. ..Platinum... ..Would you please share what you know about Platinum Mesh?... as related to a Torch Burn for Oxidation, anyone else ever using it for a Wick, and any other Knowns or UnKnowns for this Potential Wick Material?
I just get the Willies every time someone talks about (or mentions) yet another possible material to use as a Wick.
I can't send you a PM. ..I can't post a Visitor Message to your Profile Page. ..Hmmmm.
So I have to do it here (since you mentioned it here). ...I hate the thought of Derailing this thread, but you opened that door. You'd be welcome to PM Me, but I wouln't be able to PM back, and since my request might make others curious also, you can answer as you will... if you will.
If you have experience with Platinum Mesh, especially as applied to E-Cigs as a Wick, then maybe you should start a New Thread.
Carbon Platinum Mesh, Titanium Tungsten Mesh, Chrome Mesh... did I miss anything? This is pretty Meshed Up.
Good point and thread Boden.
I noticed that "material" coming off my wicks when I first started gennys and doing a full oxidation process (torch,quench, torch quench, burn juice, rinse...repeat, etc.). I stop that practice when I saw degradation of the wick material. I now do not really oxide my wicks at all. I do torch lightly, (more for removing any residual oils after washing), but based upon your chart it seems to only be around the purple level. My wick color left me scratching my head until I saw your chart. lol
Unfortunately there is "consensus" that you need to oxidize the @#$ out of the wick in order to eliminate shorts. This is really just a band-aid that can be eliminated with good technique and practice.
Here is recent setup I put together about a month ago The second picture is after 75mls and full clean (dry burn and quick brush off), still dry. I just did another clean tonight after another 50 mls on top of that 75 but started vaping on it as a read this thread. After each cleaning, my wick still looks the same and shows no signs of kicking off that material you showed earlier. I think you can click on them to see a higher resolution version.
Looking forward to seeing addition lab results.
Initial:
After 75 mls:
After 125 mls:
That's what my wicks look like. I wouldn't use a wick that is covered in that black crap YUK. BTW,my juice doesn't change color any at all. I guess I'm just dumb enough to not understand one has to turn their wick black in order to use it.
When I dry burn my coil, I leave the wick in place, and it glows orange
That is definitely a possibility. I also saw something about quenching resulting in more stable composition as well
(although I always skipped the quenching).
However, the need for your safer chromium oxides is probably suspect based on the studies I read regarding inhalation of stainless steel, which as I read it, basically safe.
This article may be pertinent to anyone that has a better science background than I do - An Overview of Sensitization Dynamics in Ferritic Stainless Steel Welds
Couple of areas that caught my eye -
The property of stainless steels particularly the ferritic grade is compromised when thermally treated in the temperature range greater than 900°C, and as such it becomes readily prone to corrosive attack. This characteristic is generally referred to as sensitization. Thus, sensitization is describe as the susceptibility of Fe-Cr-C steels to intergranular corrosion when the chromium content of the surrounding matrix becomes depleted beyond the concentration necessary to maintain passivity of the steel. The depletion of the chromium content is indicated by the precipitation of chromium carbides on the grain boundaries as M23C6 or M7C3, producing a continuous depleted zone which is more susceptible to corrosion attack.
As weld heat input during welding increases, the regions in the HAZ experiences temperature in the region of 1300°C and higher at which the steel is fully ferritic with the interstitial elements in solid solution, fast cooling produces significant Cr23C6 or Cr2N precipitation [48].
Note the temps here are 900C and 1300C (1600-2300f).
Couple of areas that caught my eye -
The property of stainless steels particularly the ferritic grade is compromised when thermally treated in the temperature range greater than 900°C, and as such it becomes readily prone to corrosive attack. This characteristic is generally referred to as sensitization. Thus, sensitization is describe as the susceptibility of Fe-Cr-C steels to intergranular corrosion when the chromium content of the surrounding matrix becomes depleted beyond the concentration necessary to maintain passivity of the steel. The depletion of the chromium content is indicated by the precipitation of chromium carbides on the grain boundaries as M23C6 or M7C3, producing a continuous depleted zone which is more susceptible to corrosion attack.
As weld heat input during welding increases, the regions in the HAZ experiences temperature in the region of 1300°C and higher at which the steel is fully ferritic with the interstitial elements in solid solution, fast cooling produces significant Cr23C6 or Cr2N precipitation [48].
Note the temps here are 900C and 1300C (1600-2300f).
A couple of points on platinum mesh:
1. I doubt most of us could afford it 25 mm X 25 mm "sheet" is $205.00; and
2. The "mesh" is in fact "gauze" 65% open I guess we'd be vaping yogourt.
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