TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

[Trexwyo]

hey man. That was not directed at you, it was a general observation! Look, nobody can know for sure how good or bad these wires are, including kanthal. From my viewpoint, and having looked at it carefully, I think we are at worst, in a far better position than smoking! Ni is ok. The big deal with nickle is nickel carbonyl which is very hard to make even in a lab so thats not an issue. Ti is great as long as we dont make boat loads of flaky Ti O2, which, if we are even moderately careful, we wont. There is no problem as long as we take care to use these devices with just a bit of thought!
best

steve

edit: Ni sucks because it is just a rubbish TC wire! there are now better things to use, Ti being one of them! In my very humble opinion of course...

Damned If I know about vape wire safety other than the info found here, there and everywhere else that seems to contradict. One of the varied sources may be most correct and I don't think anyone knows really who is most correct either. An there is a bunch on them that say they are right and everyone else is wrong. I just DON'T KNOW! <GRIN> and the more I read about it the less I know.

But I do know this, vaping with mostly Kanthal along with Titanium and Stainless under TC has improved my health a whole lot over what it was when I smoked 2 packs of cigarettes per day.

I Apologize to everyone if i started any arguments or raised unjust concerns

 

[Shawn Hoefer]

I'm seeing a disturbing trend. People - I can only assume that they are inexperienced, novices, or plain foolish - have started creating mixed TC coils. I wrote a post suggesting that they not do it, and the very next post was an individual bragging on a dual 24 Ti Claptoned (fused) with 32 gauge Ni200. This, to me, is a recipe for disaster... Perhaps someone here could provide me with a more persuasive argument to educate some people?

 

[cigatron]

I'm seeing a disturbing trend. People - I can only assume that they are inexperienced, novices, or plain foolish - have started creating mixed TC coils. I wrote a post suggesting that they not do it, and the very next post was an individual bragging on a dual 24 Ti Claptoned (fused) with 32 gauge Ni200. This, to me, is a recipe for disaster... Perhaps someone here could provide me with a more persuasive argument to educate some people?

I don't see anything wrong with using wires with different tcr or res for tc. Ohms law states the the total circuit res of two resistors in parallel is never greater than the lesser res resistor. The same rule applies to tcr ie tfr imo.

The higher tcr wire has some effect on tfr but due to the fact that most peeps really only care about the tfr at their selected vaping temp it becomes moot with temp offset or with adjustable tcr mods.

It's safe enough if the builder starts out with low temp settings and/or low tcr settings when first setting things up imo.

That said, I see absolutely no advantage to using coils wound with wires of differing tcr values unless one of those wires helps to attain a higher target res or higher tcr value for greater tc accuracy

 

[TrollDragon]

That said, I see absolutely no advantage to using coils wound with wires of differing tcr values unless one of those wires helps to attain a higher target res or higher tcr value for greater tc accuracy

If all you have is 30g Ni200, twisting it with a piece of 30g Kanthal will make it a much stiffer coil to work with.

 

[Shawn Hoefer]

I don't see anything wrong with using wires with different tcr or res for tc. Ohms law states the the total circuit res of two resistors in parallel is never greater than the lesser res resistor. The same rule applies to tcr ie tfr imo.

The higher tcr wire has some effect on tfr but due to the fact that most peeps really only care about the tfr at their selected vaping temp it becomes moot with temp offset or with adjustable tcr mods.

It's safe enough if the builder starts out with low temp settings and/or low tcr settings when first setting things up imo.

That said, I see absolutely no advantage to using coils wound with wires of differing tcr values unless one of those wires helps to attain a higher target res or higher tcr value for greater tc accuracy

Hmmm... being Claptoned, they will hold heat. And, they will heat and cool at different rates. Running this in either Ti mode or Ni mode, the TCR would be way off and there would be no true way to determine the temperature rendering TC useless. IF you had a mod with adjustable TCR such as a Smoke Xcube II or a DNA200, you might be able to determine a happy medium and get away with it... your statement also assumes that one would know what offset to use and would know to start low and work upwards. I feel as though, based on what I've seen of this trend, that these are not people that would know to do that. Further, I see them wrapping Kanthal with Ni or Ti or Ni with Kanthal. I also worry that they will then choose to use the Kanthal wrapped device in a mech...

 

[vapealone]

Hmmm... being Claptoned, they will hold heat. And, they will heat and cool at different rates. Running this in either Ti mode or Ni mode, the TCR would be way off and there would be no true way to determine the temperature rendering TC useless. IF you had a mod with adjustable TCR such as a Smoke Xcube II or a DNA200, you might be able to determine a happy medium and get away with it... your statement also assumes that one would know what offset to use and would know to start low and work upwards. I feel as though, based on what I've seen of this trend, that these are not people that would know to do that. Further, I see them wrapping Kanthal with Ni or Ti or Ni with Kanthal. I also worry that they will then choose to use the Kanthal wrapped device in a mech...

IMO, you overthink it.
as @cigatron said, the aspects of mixed materials/resistances can be calculated well within the accuracy we need.
For the actual temperature of a given point of any single coil is actually unknown. The only thing we know, the actual resistance of the coil and approximate an average temperature value based on that.
And to do that, we are using experimental data (TCR, etc) based on experiments where the materials heated and cooled extremely slowly and as uniformly as possible.
But it is good enough for vaping on either single material or mixed material coils.

Heat wise, it is actually can be even better for they can balance each others temperature as if you have a heating element and a thermal mass built together.

But this is just me.
For me, mixed Claptons (on the very last tab below and on my avatar) were the second step from Ni200 for it was a very easy way to build a coil with acceptably high resistance with TFR well within the (1-2.7) range that any Ni-TC mod can handle.


I rarely use it now, for TCR adjustment/ custom csv makes me lazy and I just use single wires ATM

 

[cigatron]

Further, I see them wrapping Kanthal with Ni or Ti or Ni with Kanthal. I also worry that they will then choose to use the Kanthal wrapped device in a mech...

Not a problem if they're reading their tc builds on an ohm checker before firing on a mech; which they should be.The res will only increase from ambient/baseline so a mech mod would just draw less amperage as the coil heats.

As a general rule I never build anything that I can't run safely on my mechs; I'm too forgetful and like my face just the way it is thank you.

 

[JimScotty0]

Yes it is a Pima Cotton. USA Grown from Cottonman called. Angel Hair 200mm

I know Butch (Cottonman) personally so I'm biased & he has more then just one type of cotton. He is an actual Cotton farmer in North Carolina. It's all I use.
The only other Pima on par is the VCC Cotton. Read More

I highly recommend any of the OB (Oil-removal Bath) version Cottons from Cottonman since they've had the natural cotton oils removed there is no funky taste or long break in. Some other Pima's I've tried repel the juice or have a funky flavor for a long break in.
FWIW I use the Angil hair Pima in all my RTA's, RBA's, or anything TC since it is the best wicking cotton. For the High Watt stuff like a series box with RDA's I use either the Just Red V2 OB or the Mavaton's Select Gold OB.
I don't know what type of Cotton the last 2 are (not Pima), but they are a denser fiber & take way more heat.

I am surprised more people are not aware or use Pima cotton for vaping. This is good stuff! Thanks for posting those links, I look to get some for my next purchase.

 

[BlueridgeDog]

Somewhere in this thread, a user posted a simple TCR chart of the various metals used in vaping and TheBoke posted a good analysis of the relationship between TCR and resistance. I am looking for them to share, but despite going through 20 pages of posts, can't find them. Anyone know where they are?

 

[cigatron]

This page maybe.

TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

 

[Mactavish]

Isn't it 0.0060?

That's the value for Nickle used on the SteamEngine site. Not sure who to believe?

 

[WileE]

That's the value for Nickle used on the SteamEngine site. Not sure who to believe?

That was a little confusing since @gormans quote was from page 97 of this thread.
Short answer is:
My money's on Vapealone's worksheet above I believe that worksheet contains both the most comprehensive & the most accurate data available at this point. He has calculated the TCR based on all the TFR data given in the specifications sheets using formulas to fill in the gaps in the datasheets.

For the long answer read on:
On the worksheet above go to the sheets tab in the lower left corner & select the TCR sheet, then column C shows that the TCR for Ni200 is not flat at all, it is a curve starting with a TCR of .004427 @ 100°C rising to .006101 @ 300°C
If you look at wire wizard on steam engine it just gives a static TCR of .006 or .006087 depending on selection, however when you look on the graph it is clearly a curve so obviously he is using a calculation similar to Vapealone's to generate the curve. Actually it may well be Vapealone's worksheet that DampMaskin is pulling the data from for some of wire wizards calculations.

Wire wizard TFR data on steam engine almost exactly aligns with the data in Vapealone's work sheet.

I believe Vapealone actually uses the TFR to calculate & fill on the blanks on the TCR, but for the sake of simplification I'm going to explain it the other way around

So to make this point via the longest possible answer, hear is an example. On the worksheet specifically the TCR page column C line #9 we can see that at 100°C Nickel 200 has a TCR of .004427 & that value is used to calculate TFR, so lets switch sheets in the workbook to the TFR sheet. Now we can see on this sheet that TCR of .004427 is = to a TFR of 1.354 now let's go see what the TFR is on Steam engine's wire wizard. It is almost a dead match 100°C = TFR 1.3486
If steam engine were using TCR .006 then wire wizard would show a TFR of 1.48 @ 100°C
Now lets do a quick comparison at 200°C. Worksheet shows TFR of 1.927 based on a TCR of .00515 at that temp. And Wire wizard said (you probably already guessed it) TFR = 1.92271 @ 200°C


On a side note I wonder if Vapealone would consider a brief (if that's possible) how to Tutorial/explanation for his active worksheet. That would help those of us who are not math & spread sheet wizards

 

[Mactavish]

If I go by the response from the maker of the SE site, regarding the difference in TCR of titanium where most common acceptance of Ti at .0035, versus the .0036 on the SE site, he uses the numbers in the acceptable vape range.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Vaping with mixed wires is not TC vaping, it's power only vaping. You may think you are in TC but you are not, so why bother.

 

[WileE]

If I go by the response from the maker of the SE site, regarding the difference in TCR of titanium where most common acceptance of Ti at .0035, versus the .0036 on the SE site, he uses the numbers in the acceptable vape range.

For Titanium if you compare the Grade 2 on Steam engine to the Grade 2a on the worksheet in similar fashion as what I did for the Nickel above, it is again almost an exact match, however there was a lack of recent specifications for the Grade 1 when Vapealone was putting this worksheet together (titanium tab on worksheet is Grade 1) & used old data from Ames laboratory done in 1952.
Well guess what? Yep again almost a perfect match. This time it's not as easy to compare because the data from 1952 did'nt have the even increments such as 200°C instead for a quick (not perfectly accurate) comparison I add the 189°C TCR to the 221°C TCR on the worksheet then divide by 2 = .003684 avg TCR. We want to compare to Wire Wizard at 200°C so 200° - 20° = 180° x .003684 = .66303 + 1 =
TFR of 1.66303 @ 200°C based on the 1952 data. Wire Wizard I'm sure does a more accurate calculation then I just did so should be a snicker higher & it is @ 1.66318

It's also worth noting that Vapealone clearly states at the top of that Titanium data that that Grade 1 tested by Ames for the military in 1952 is most likely higher then any commercially available grade, so I would stick with the grade 2 CSV from SE unless you know for a fact you've got some super duper grade 1 Ti.

 

[WileE]

Vaping with mixed wires is not TC vaping, it's power only vaping. You may think you are in TC but you are not, so why bother.

Well I couldn't disagree more!
I've been using NiFe 52 core/A1 kanthal wrap claptons hybrids since July & my every day TC is a DNA 40 with either Goblin mini or a 454 RDA. It has been flawless with either. Has not jumped out of TC once and has a negligible affect on TC accuracy. I've vaped many tanks bone dry just cause I can and no burnt hits.
FWIW I've also been experimenting with A1 kanthal cores and multiple strand NiFe 52 clapton wraps. This later Hybrid construction has a bigger affect on TC offset requirements but it's pretty cool to have a Clapton where the wrap wire lights first instead of just soaking heat from the core

On another note I've noticed Steam engines wire wizard is not working properly with regard to resistance calculations for claptons be it hybrid or pure bread. Adding a parallel strand (Clapton wrap) should not increase the resistance above the lowest resistance strand in the assembly, But it is?
I will post on Damp Maskins forum to see if he can find the bug.

 

[WileE]

Well I was a little hasty in my response to @WharfRat1976 I don't mean to come across as a grumpy bugger. Here is a better answer.
I don't agree with your statement. It is absolutely possible to vape TC with mixed wires & I don't think it's fair to condemn all TC hybrids, however I can agree that some of them seem utterly pointless such as mixing 2 different TC wires Ni + Ti Or SS + Ni. I don't understand that one at all.

I believe there is an advantage to using hybrid TC claptons, that is if you like Claptons.
My rational is this:
A good quality TC wire is considerably more expensive then A1 Kanthal, A1 Kanthal is arguably the most durable of all the wires, A1 also has the ability to regenerate/repair the oxide layer, thus allowing dry fire/re-wick. I like Pict's so here are some to illustrate.

New build - Goblin Mini 28ga NiFe 52 core + 34ga A1 kanthal wrap set to @ 370°F on DNA 40

After a few tanks Of 70vg-30pg Teleos Pound cake

Dry burn & rinse only! set DNA to 600°F = bright glow then cool then rinse. Did not scrub or wipe with anything.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Well I was a little hasty in my response to @WharfRat1976 I don't mean to come across as a grumpy bugger. Here is a better answer.
I don't agree with your statement. It is absolutely possible to vape TC with mixed wires & I don't think it's fair to condemn all TC hybrids, however I can agree that some of them seem utterly pointless such as mixing 2 different TC wires Ni + Ti Or SS + Ni. I don't understand that one at all.

I believe there is an advantage to using hybrid TC claptons, that is if you like Claptons.
My rational is this:
A good quality TC wire is considerably more expensive then A1 Kanthal, A1 Kanthal is arguably the most durable of all the wires, A1 also has the ability to regenerate/repair the oxide layer, thus allowing dry fire/re-wick. I like Pict's so here are some to illustrate.

New build - Goblin Mini 28ga NiFe 52 core + 34ga A1 kanthal wrap set to @ 370°F on DNA 40
View attachment 510016

After a few tanks Of 70vg-30pg Teleos Pound cake View attachment 510017

Dry burn & rinse only! set DNA to 600°F = bright glow then cool then rinse. Did not scrub or wipe with anything. View attachment 510018

Do a dry fire in a wicked hybrid clapton at 550 degrees. Let me know when your TC kicks in.

 

[WileE]

Do a dry fire in a wicked hybrid clapton at 550 degrees. Let me know when your TC kicks in.

Next time I need to start a fire I'll try that, but I don't think TC will function properly while the cotton is burning!!!
But seriously why would you want to do that?? I don't vape past 480°F, ever, on anything & I sure the hell don't dry fire with the wick installed. Plus 550° set temp on my DNA 40 = an actual 800°F with NiFe 52

Per the last pic I posted above I dry fire to clean gunked coils without the wick at 600°F and the temp control kicks in when coils are glowing pretty bright.

 

[cigatron]

Next time I need to start a fire I'll try that, but I don't think TC will function properly while the cotton is burning!!!
But seriously why would you want to do that?? I don't vape past 480°F, ever, on anything & I sure the hell don't dry fire with the wick installed. Plus 550° set temp on my DNA 40 = an actual 800°F with NiFe 52

Per the last pic I posted above I dry fire to clean gunked coils without the wick at 600°F and the temp control kicks in when coils are glowing pretty bright.

With dual captons does the dna40 even reach temp protect with wet wicks? I'm guessing that it doesn't while vaping and just temp protects when the wicks run dry. I'd be throwing somewhere close to 90w at that build to reach temp control at 430-ish °f.

Of coarse if you're a tootle puffer (mtl) with restricted airflow 40w may be enough?