TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance

[HolmanGT]

Because, sometimes, the student surpasses the teacher. All those guys in China needed was the idea. They're not stupid. Once you get the idea, a clever engineer will think things through and sometimes come up with really neat solutions.... Like nickel purity.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

Tony,

Believe me I know those Chinese Engineers are not stupid. I have to bite my lip every time I hear people talk the way they are just a bunch of foolish technology pirates. When I was much younger people said the same thing about Japanese products and engineering. Actually I'll bet the Chinese Engineers have a ton of great ideas but their corporate business model doesn't allow for much independant entrepreneurism but once given the request to do something they come with a whole new set of reasons to succeed.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Steve,

Do you know how he was able to get into the code oh-wait I think I heard that was an option on the chiNA40. Is that correct. Also how come the clones do tricks the real-thing doesn't? (rhetorical) on that last point.

hey george,
i think tom deserves a lot of credit for seeing that np is a surrogate measure of tcr! Im not absolutely convinced that the sxk engineers actually realised what they had created!!!

s

 

[KenD]

Yeah that's what Steve and I have - the standard with the extension. It's €19 more, but it looks better in 2x650 mode. I posted a picture comparison in the Dicodes thread, showing mine in 2x650 mode versus another user who has the 2380T. That's the only mode that shows a difference, so it only matters if you plan to use 2x650 - which somewhat resembles a baseball bat in length

Personally I'm now using 2x350 and 2x490 a lot. The battery life isn't great but it enables 80W and is much shorter.

Be careful with those 18350s, they won't have the amp capability to handle 80w. Doubtful that any 18500s could do that either.

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[TheBloke]

Be careful with those 18350s, they won't have the amp capability to handle 80w. Doubtful that any 18500s could do that either.

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Thanks, yeah I am calculating that. The max amps on the 350s is 10A each and the 490s is 16A (I got some of the highest 350 and 490s I could), so when I use one 350 I need to keep my draw below 10A (in fact I limit to around 8A).

But in series that's max 20A and 32A total, and in fact the mod won't allow more than 15A to be used so with 2x battery I can do any build the mod supports.

 

[TheBloke]

Steve,

Do you know how he was able to get into the code oh-wait I think I heard that was an option on the chiNA40. Is that correct. Also how come the clones do tricks the real-thing doesn't? (rhetorical) on that last point.

If you read the first and second post in this thread it will explain a lot. I updated those for as long as I could before the post edit block kicked in (after 2 days), intended as an entry point to understanding what's being discussed in the thread.

They're now out of date in terms of latest findings but will still give you the background to understand the majority of the rest of what is discussed.

Also I didn't receive any PMs from you, perhaps you didn't send it.

 

[vapealone]

But yours is better
page 28,30, 31
I will do it on the weekend, ok?
And update the same google sheet

and @tchavei, I will try to generate some DNA40 temp settings as well

@TheBloke, @tchavei

Status report:
Working on it. I have loaded the data I could.
ATM that is what I have.

BTW:All the Tungsten and Titanium data refers to some unknown (however more likely ultra high) purity materials used for experiments. Does anyone have temperature dependent resistance data of any commercial W, Ti products?
Or does anyone have access to any data table in this?

P.S.: Any comment on typos or other mistakes are welcomed.

 

[TheBloke]

Thanks a lot @vapealone , looks good. BTW I investigated Tungsten as a potential vaping wire but its resistance is tiny - like I think lower than Ni200. I ruled it out as a viable vaping wire for that reason.

Regarding temperature dependent resistance data - I should eventually be able to collect this, using my thermocouple. But it might be quite painstaking measuring both the resistance and the temperature, matched.

Personally what I am most interested in is whether a given, static TCR figure can give accurate temperature control at the target range of temperatures. So far, for the Titanium Gr1 that I have, 0.0035 seems to do that. At least it does at 200°C and 220°C. I will keep testing at other temps.

 

[TheBloke]

@tchavei that dinner did in fact turn out to be too much for me. No probing last night. But will be some today

 

[vapealone]

Thanks a lot @vapealone , looks good. BTW I investigated Tungsten as a potential vaping wire but its resistance is tiny - like I think lower than Ni200. I ruled it out as a viable vaping wire for that reason.

Regarding temperature dependent resistance data - I should eventually be able to collect this, using my thermocouple. But it might be quite painstaking measuring both the resistance and the temperature, matched.

Personally what I am most interested in is whether a given, static TCR figure can give accurate temperature control at the target range of temperatures. So far, for the Titanium Gr1 that I have, 0.0035 seems to do that. At least it does at 200°C and 220°C. I will keep testing at other temps.

I think your 0.0035 is pretty good. Considering the 20°C resistance data Specimen #1a in your report agrees pretty well with Ti Gr1. And within our range its TCR is dancing around 0.0035 (0.00349-0.00357)
Besides, it seems that Ti's variance is too small even for laboratory measurements let alone for our mods or vaping.

 

[TheBloke]

I think your 0.0035 is pretty good. Considering the 20°C resistance data Specimen #1a in your report agrees pretty well with Ti Gr1. And within our range its TCR is dancing around 0.0035 (0.00349-0.00357)
Besides, it seems that Ti's variance is too small even for laboratory measurements let alone for our mods or vaping.

That's awesome.

The 1959 study I discussed with you, uses non-pure Titanium and comes up with an overall TCR around 0.0039. If you calculate a TCR for the entire range of data they used, do you get around 0.0039 as well? But then just our vaping range is approx 0.0035? If you haven't inputted their entire data, only the vaping range, then don't bother. I'm just interested to see where their 0.0039 comes from, to see confirmation it's because it's across the whole range including way above our vaping range. That's only academic interest, it's just the vaping range we actually care about of course.

 

[vapealone]

That's awesome.

The 1959 study I discussed with you, uses non-pure Titanium and comes up with an overall TCR around 0.0039. If you calculate a TCR for the entire range of data they used, do you get around 0.0039 as well? But then just our vaping range is approx 0.0035? If you haven't inputted their entire data, only the vaping range, then don't bother. I'm just interested to see where their 0.0039 comes from, to see confirmation it's because it's across the whole range including way above our vaping range. That's only academic interest, it's just the vaping range we actually care about of course.

I didn't read the full report but the experiment part and data. Dunno what kind of TCR they calculated. I rather focus on our range and will use 20°C as reference.
However on this material pages for Ti I used the lowest given temperature (24-30°C, depending on the experiment and referenced accordingly) for preliminary TCR calculation as I didn't want to mess with the factual data. But I will later
Besides, if any proper TCR was provided for a commercial product I have noted this. There wasn't any tho. The closest thing was a TCR for Tungsten but it was from 0 to 100°C and was provided as a general information without reference to an actual commercial product, hence useless for my purpose. Added as a note, anyway.

 

[druckle]

That's awesome.

The 1959 study I discussed with you, uses non-pure Titanium and comes up with an overall TCR around 0.0039. If you calculate a TCR for the entire range of data they used, do you get around 0.0039 as well? But then just our vaping range is approx 0.0035? If you haven't inputted their entire data, only the vaping range, then don't bother. I'm just interested to see where their 0.0039 comes from, to see confirmation it's because it's across the whole range including way above our vaping range. That's only academic interest, it's just the vaping range we actually care about of course.

I've been searching through my files and everything I can find online and so far 0.0035 is pretty much what I can find. I think it's probably true that the variation in coeef. of resistivity for Grade 1 Ti is really small and folks haven't felt the need to publish detailed data since it would be virtually meaningless. Still searching but the old eyes are beginning to glaze over.

duane

 

[TheBloke]

I've been searching through my files and everything I can find online and so far 0.0035 is pretty much what I can find. I think it's probably true that the variation in coeef. of resistivity for Grade 1 Ti is really small and folks haven't felt the need to publish detailed data since it would be virtually meaningless. Still searching but the old eyes are beginning to glaze over.

duane

Ok awesome, thanks. I don't think you need to search further. Ultimately what we care about is the wire in our hands. Zivipfs is 0.0035 for sure, at least at two key target temps and probably at the full vaping range - and @vapealone 's analysis of the 1959 data seems to confirm that. When I get Crazy Wire's and Stealth Vape's, I'll check theirs too. Maybe someone with US wire will be able to test that at some point, or I can try to get hold of some to test it.

I've been beginning to realise of late that a single TCR figure can be quite misleading. That's definitely the case for Ni200, hence why the DNA 40 and DNA 200 use discrete measurements at different temp ranges. With Titanium we have a relatively linear straight line at our range, which is great - but that's not the case across the whole range that Titanium supports. I think that is a big part of why we see TCR figures of 0.0038, 0.0042 even - they may be testing completely different temperature ranges, or at least averaging over a temperature range that goes far beyond what we care about. The 1959 study for example calculated an overall TCR of 0.0039 or thereabouts, but using the exact same data @vapealone has confirmed it's 0.0035 in our specific range.

Now that I can actually measure temperatures I'm going to be relying a lot less on published figures and a lot more on actual measurement.

Ultimately what it would be nice to achieve - and I am sure it is achievable - is a simple table of recommendations. You have Mod A, Wire X and Target Temp Y°C? Set your With-TCR ModA to TCR ZZZ , or your non-TCR ModB to Target Temp CCC°C. Job done.

Like the calculator I already did for Dicodes and SXK mods, but simpler in operation.

 

[vapealone]

That's awesome.

The 1959 study I discussed with you, uses non-pure Titanium and comes up with an overall TCR around 0.0039. If you calculate a TCR for the entire range of data they used, do you get around 0.0039 as well? But then just our vaping range is approx 0.0035? If you haven't inputted their entire data, only the vaping range, then don't bother. I'm just interested to see where their 0.0039 comes from, to see confirmation it's because it's across the whole range including way above our vaping range. That's only academic interest, it's just the vaping range we actually care about of course.

My bad sorry.
On page 27 I ve found the answer for ur question and also my missing 20c R values.
The 0.00397 belongs to specimen1a from 0 to 100c. They didn't list R@0c so no way to check it. But we dont need it either.
Anyway I will update the R20 input and change tcrs accordingly.

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[AB Dada]

Be careful with those 18350s, they won't have the amp capability to handle 80w. Doubtful that any 18500s could do that either.

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The new 2015 AW IMR 18350 is rated at 12A, FYI.

 

[KenD]

The new 2015 AW IMR 18350 is rated at 12A, FYI.

Yeah, I know (I have some blue Tensai that are rated for 14 amps). That's still not enough for 80w, not with a single battery at least.

Edit: actually, just checked steam engine. With two batteries down to 3.7v, 7.4v in total, the amp draw is just above the amp limit of the new AWs at 80w.
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[AB Dada]

That's how I figure the P=IV

But at 2.7V * 12 you are at 32.4 or a ceiling of 64W serial for safety sake.

Also if you set a floor of 2.5 you're at 60W serial.

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[TheBloke]

Yeah, I know (I have some blue Tensai that are rated for 14 amps). That's still not enough for 80w, not with a single battery at least.

Edit: actually, just checked steam engine. With two batteries down to 3.7v, 7.4v in total, the amp draw is just above the amp limit of the new AWs at 80w.
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The Dicodes limits to 40W with single battery, 80W is only possible with two - even with two, it limits to 15A max draw, which at 80W means a minimum build of 0.4Ω. So I can't do 80W with Ni200 but can with most Titanium builds, and some Resistherm.

Apparently the 15A limit is to increase the longevity of the electronics, as it's in a very compact package being in a tube mod.

They're coming out with a box mod sometime soon which should be more flexible.

Even with those limits I do like the flexibility the tube allows - any config possible: 1x350, 2x350, 1x490, 2x490, 1x650, 2x650. I'm finding I do 2x350 and 2x490 a lot as it allows the max of 80W but is still a nice compact package. 4x490 is the best compromise in terms of power versus overall battery life (around 1900mah I get from 2x1100mah AWT 18490s)

 

[Madnapali]

Alloy 120 from ResistanceWire.com - you need to spend $50 + shipping and you'll get 980 feet. Yeah.

@vapealone has it and he reports the TCR is a bit higher, about 0.0045, but in fact that would seem to be a benefit. Another benefit, it's available in a much wider range of wires - eg 24, 26, 28G.

Thanks. I did buy and then sell off twenty pounds of SS wire, so... maybe I'll do the same with Resistherm, or organize a group buy at a later date.

Ok, done. I also added a "How it works" section to the TCR page, where I try to explain what it's about.

Good job, boss!

 

[KenD]

The Dicodes limits to 40W with single battery, 80W is only possible with two - even with two, it limits to 15A max draw, which at 80W means a minimum build of 0.4Ω. So I can't do 80W with Ni200 but can with most Titanium builds, and some Resistherm.

Apparently the 15A limit is to increase the longevity of the electronics, as it's in a very compact package being in a tube mod.

They're coming out with a box mod sometime soon which should be more flexible.

Even with those limits I do like the flexibility the tube allows - any config possible: 1x350, 2x350, 1x490, 2x490, 1x650, 2x650. I'm finding I do 2x350 and 2x490 a lot as it allows the max of 80W but is still a nice compact package. 4x490 is the best compromise in terms of power versus overall battery life (around 1900mah I get from 2x1100mah AWT 18490s)

With regulated mods the resistance doesn't matter. Wattage and battery charge determine amp draw (lower charge = higher drain). So the Dicodes should limit the wattage (never actually reaching 80w) and not put a cap on the resistance. Does it really cap the resistance and not limit the wattage?

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