TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance
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But that really got my interest going as to what's going on there. Gone for the holiday week end I guess.
I couldn't give you a detailed comparison.You were clear, that's what I understood!
I was asking if you can elaborate on how the Ti is better? But I suppose you just did, it had better flavour and thickness of vapour. And that was comparing like-for-like? 26G Titanim to 26G NiFe, or whatever your preferred wire size is? Or same twisted build, whatever?
I must admit I don't understand how different wires can lead to better flavours - unless it's something to do with juice's adherence to their surface or something? @druckle was talking about wettability the other day. I suppose there could be any number of subtle interactions we don't understand; or at least I don't
When I get my NiFe in 26G I 'll do three identical builds on three identical atomizers - Titanium, SS304 and NiFe - and vape them with the same juice and see if I can tell any difference.
Anyway, OK good so we have one subjective data point - for you, Titanium has better flavour and thickness of vapour. We'll see if anyone else notices this too when more people go from Titanium to NiFe or SS or whatever.
I build for my preferred vape.
With Ti, I think 24ga is my thing. 26 is questionable, 29 will collect dust.
A1/Ni Clapton wise it is 28/30 and w NiFe I have 28 and 26. 26 is the first choice, resistance permitting, but doesn't really matter. Not a huge difference.
And I don't twist.
PM for youI have no idea what you're talking about?Something to do with the DNA 200?
OK so it's not actually like-for-like, 24g vs 26 for example.
That's the trouble in the various comparisons I've seen of this nature, it's never actually like for like.
But of course often that's a fair part of the comparison as there's a reason it can't be like for like - as you say, resistance. With NiFe70, 24G is really too low a resistance. NiFe52 will be possible, but then we won't actually be able to get NiFe52 in 24G at least to start (ZiVipf will have up to 26)
So that's certainly a factor, and why resistance is a key point.
Personally I tend to mostly do 26, but I do have a couple of 24G builds.
I'm now ordering SS304 in 26 and 24G, so I will be able to compare for example Titanium 24 to SS 24.
Anyway, thanks, I'd definitely like to start recording the more subjective results as well as the quanitifables. And it is definitely worth remembering that certain wire types at certain resistances can limit builds, and this applies certainly to NiFe70 but also to 52.
I regret the Mercedes/Ford/whatever comparison
The main point of my comparison was the one to Ni200. I was going for the idea that Ni200 -> Titanium was an enormous leap, and then Titanium -> NiFe was a question of a few % points of improvement (if one can judge such things in % points!)
Another analogy (which I'll caveat as being my own personal experience only): When one needs to commute to work, the difference between a push-bike and a car is a huge difference. This is Ni200 to Titanium. Then the difference of a basic car to a luxury car is, relatively, a much smaller difference. I might prefer to drive to work in a luxurious BMW than a basic Ford (or Skoda or VW or whatever), but the extra difference this brings to the commute is tiny compared to the enormous difference from cycling to work on a push bike versus getting there in the comfort of any car!
But I see the whole car comparison thing is fraught with problems so let's forget those
Anyway, I say this is my experience. I have not noticed improvements in vapour/flavour/etc from Titanium. Maybe I'm missing something? I don't know. I'd be interested for you to elaborate on that.
What I find is that the handling characteristics and the dry burnability of NiFe - and Stainless Steel - gives me those few % extra of usability than Titanium.
I'm someone who doesn't get a kick out of building coils, because I most suck at it. I get broken wires. I get wires that won't stay under screw heads. I get builds I make too big and short/have to be adjusted. I have all these little problems, and I can get them with all wires, but I feel I get slightly more of them with Titanium.
So the wire that gives me the least of those problems, and gives me the most tools to fix them, gets a strong vote for me, other things being equal. And for me, they are equal. I haven't noticed significant vapour differences between different wires, at least assuming the same build.
i have 12 builds on my desk right now. Most are Titanium, two are SS, two are twisted NiFe. if I pick them up and vape, I can't tell the difference. If you can, I'd love to learn more about why/in what way?
So the fact that Titanium is springy and expands, that I can't dry burn it to clean or check a build carefully, these are the small % differences that, while I can certainly live with them, i'd rather live without.
I have heard one person, I forget who, say he got better flavour from Titanium than Resistherm. I don't know if he was comparing like-for-like - Resistherm is only available in 29G, so did he compare 29G to 26G? Did he twist the Resistherm? I don't know. I do find it hard to see why a particular wire could give different flavour, assuming identical builds - that is assuming none of the wires can change the flavour, as people say Ni200 can.
That sounds like what I am saying. It's not a vast difference, but it's a sort of "great, that was a bit easier" feeling. Which incidentally sounds exactly what @yo han and @jazzvaper have just experienced going to SS for the first time.
But then you say that you think Titanium is giving better vapour in some way? Can you elaborate? And is that definitely a like-for-like comparison?
Looks good - but also looks like the sort of careful tweaking that I find hard
The main thing for me with Titanium is that, unless I carefully (and laboriously) pre-torch it, it will always expand about 10%. Coil it on my Kuro 3.0mm rod, and it will be 3.25 - 3.3mm in the end. I can't do anything to fix that, unless I'm able to attach it to the atomizer in a tensioned state. But that's hard and fiddly for me to do.
I'm quite used to this springiness of Titanium and I know that those builds fit in my atomizers. But I would rather it be that I coil around a 3mm rod and get 3mm, especially as this would fit fractionally better in my atomizers (in many cases on my decks, 3.3 just fits, 3.0 fits without worries)
Anyway, I certainly am not interested in wire pissing contents
I do believe, based on my own experience and corroborating experience of others, that the NiFes - and SS as well to some extent, now we know it's not nearly as inaccurate as previously thought - have specific, quantifiable benefits over Titanium. Maybe Titanium has benefits back, it's just so far they've not been quantifiable, and you're the first person I've heard to state that Titanium might have benefits to resulting vapour.
NiFe will be out in a big way soon, and more and more people are trying SS. So in the next weeks we'll have a lot more data, people going from Titanium to NiFe or SS, and giving their opinions. We'll look at all that and maybe a picture will form.
I agree I do not want to see a pissing contest over the wire we choose to use however I much prefer titanium to any material I have used (I have not yet had the chance to explore NiFe) and I would like to explain why I believe titanium will likely be my permanent and only wire.
This is going to sound like technobabble to most folks but I ask your forbearance because I am a materials engineer and tend to think about the details of materials science when I am dealing with such things.
First. I know that many folks find titanium a bit springy etc. when they are attempting to make coils. That is caused by the fact that titanium work hardens very quickly when it is plastically deformed. (Plastic deformation of a metal just means that the material has been bent, stretched or deformed in some way). I personally have selected annealed/soft wire to start my coil making but I have had little difficulty in using more springy wires so that factor isn't a super big deal to me.
Because titanium work hardens so quickly my soft annealed wire very quickly becomes stiff and stable after I have bent it (Chalk one up for hexagonal close packed crystal structure).
I think this rapid work hardening is a major benefit for the final experience of vaping on a titanium coil and here is why.
Alpha titanium (the kind we use in Grade 1) has a hexagonal close packed crystal structure. The atoms in the solid do not arrange them selves in a symmetrical cubic structure as do the iron/iron-nickel/or nickel alloys. This means that movement of internal dislocations which form during plastic deformation cannot move easily, or far, before they entangle and resist further movement. Slightly deformed titanium cannot easily accommodate further deformation and the material becomes stronger/stiffer very quickly when we bend it or stretch it.
After I have made a titanium coil I find the coil is exceedingly stable compared to any other material I have used and I can change wicks adjusting the packing density of the fibers multiple times from loose to tighter to too tight etc without ruining my coil.
This dimensional stability benefit also helps me properly clean a coil by brushing etc. without difficulty compared to other materials which are more easily deformed. For whatever reason I have found my titanium coils tend to build up less "gunk" than most other materials but they are definitely more easily cleaned and this means once I have a titanium coil in place I can use it for a very long time with no need to change to a new one.
I personally have found that the proper wick packing etc. is the most important issue in getting the vape I want. It's the hardest issue to define and adjust but it's the key issue I need to get right. Titanium helps me greatly in getting my wicks right. I see a large benefit in using titanium wire but I believe it's because it lets me fiddle with my wicks over an over (which unfortunately I often need to do) and I don't have to worry about the coil being ruined by my fiddling.
Titanium also has the large benefit of being less sensitive to chemistry as far as TCR because it is a "pure" material and isn't affected by slight alloy content changes from batch to batch as are iron, iron-nickel and nickel alloys all of which have a Curie temperature. The properties of these iron/nickle materials can bounce around a lot based on detailed chemistry thus causing relatively large variation in TCR and other properties. These other materials will always be more variable from different batches/vendors etc. because their properties are more sensitive to detailed composition compared to titanium.
This has become far too long and it's time to quit.
The important thing is that we have equipment that allows us to use any wire because we all weigh and balance the benefits of different materials in different ways.
I believe I will likely be using mostly titanium wire but I am open to other materials to challenge that and I like the fact that there is intense exploration of other materials so each of us can have broader choices in the future.
Duane
UK users wanting Stainless Steel 304 in reasonable sizes, I just found this place: wires.co.uk : Stainless Steel 304 Wire
I'm ordering 0.40/26G and 0.50/24G in SS304, 15m spools for about £3 each including VAT. (Total order for 2 x 15m spools was £9.70 including 1st class delivery @ £3.50)
Wire is listed as 'soft annealed', I don't know what that will mean for strength. I have a feeling the SS317 I've already been using might be annealed, as it feels very malleable - but is still very strong.
Besides them the only place I could find that did it was ZiVipf in Germany. Crazy Wire has SS 304 but not in 24 or 26G.
I'm ordering 0.40/26G and 0.50/24G in SS304, 15m spools for about £3 each including VAT. (Total order for 2 x 15m spools was £9.70 including 1st class delivery @ £3.50)
Wire is listed as 'soft annealed', I don't know what that will mean for strength. I have a feeling the SS317 I've already been using might be annealed, as it feels very malleable - but is still very strong.
Besides them the only place I could find that did it was ZiVipf in Germany. Crazy Wire has SS 304 but not in 24 or 26G.
Hey Duane,
Thanks a lot for the details!
My thoughts:
So I guess my overall response would be yes those are all good advantages, but they mostly seem to me to apply Titanium vs Ni200.
But we're not yet at the stage where we can properly evaluate NiFe because of the disparity in wire gauges. I hope to rectify that very soon - albeit with Crazy Wire wire, which now I think about it may not be 100% representative of other wires. But we'll see what happens.
I would be very interested in you trying some of the other wires, just to see your thoughts on how they compare, which you can probably express in far more technical terms than the rest of us!
Finally I'll say again: Titanium is a great wire and vastly better than Ni200. The benefits beyond Titanium are far smaller in magnitude. But so far, at least from my experience and my preferences, they are real benefits. That doesn't make Titanium any less good in and of itself, merely I feel makes the others a little preferable.
But lots more testing needs to be done, and soon we should finally be able to do it like-for-like.
Thanks a lot for the details!
My thoughts:
- I agree Titanium withstands wick movements very well. However I find exactly the same, if not more, with Stainless Steel - my SS coils are rock solid.
- I can't do a valid comparison with NiFe yet because I only have NiFe either very thin, or else twisted - the latter tending to snag the wick, and in any case still not being quite the same size as my 26G Titanium coils
- I will have NiFe70 at 26G in the coming week, so then I can compare properly
- For the ability to brush it clean, I feel this is a moot point in the comparison because the other wires - SS and NiFe - can be dry burnt clean, which I find much preferable
- Variations in the material and thus TCR: Yes this is a valid point, and a concern I have certainly regarding the NiFe wires; not sure on SS
- I've seen it myself with Ni200 that certain spools (Crazy Wire's) had a very different TCR to other wires, and to the wires that the Ni200-only mods were expecting
- Then again, that's Crazy Wire, known to be unreliable - for all we know it might not even have been to-spec wire.
- I don't know to what extent, if at all, it will apply for Stealth's NiFe70, or Kanthal NiFe70 or Kanthal NiFe52 - but you are right it needs to be validated
- I've seen it myself with Ni200 that certain spools (Crazy Wire's) had a very different TCR to other wires, and to the wires that the Ni200-only mods were expecting
- Wick packing, similar to point 1, I believe you'll definitely find just the same with SS, and I believe also with NiFe but I need to verify this with the correct thickness of wire.
So I guess my overall response would be yes those are all good advantages, but they mostly seem to me to apply Titanium vs Ni200.
But we're not yet at the stage where we can properly evaluate NiFe because of the disparity in wire gauges. I hope to rectify that very soon - albeit with Crazy Wire wire, which now I think about it may not be 100% representative of other wires. But we'll see what happens.
I would be very interested in you trying some of the other wires, just to see your thoughts on how they compare, which you can probably express in far more technical terms than the rest of us!
Finally I'll say again: Titanium is a great wire and vastly better than Ni200. The benefits beyond Titanium are far smaller in magnitude. But so far, at least from my experience and my preferences, they are real benefits. That doesn't make Titanium any less good in and of itself, merely I feel makes the others a little preferable.
But lots more testing needs to be done, and soon we should finally be able to do it like-for-like.
I'm not a titanium fanboy (yet) but the benefits of stability/higher resistance with a linear TCR, insensensitivity to chemistry variations etc. make it seem likely to me from what I know that it will be hard to beat. I certainly don't advocate dry burning because of the potential for excessive oxidation but as has been pointed out earlier careful dry burning of titanium is possible if the power/exposure time is well controlled and the coil well cleaned after. I don't do it on a regular basis because my coils stay relatively clean and can be easily further cleaned with no difficulty or downside. In fact I have found absolutely no need to dry burn titanium but I know I can if I do it carefully. I don't do it because I don't need to. I think the average person should not be dry burning titanium and I likely won't be doing it myself in the future either.
As I said earlier the best vaping wire hasn't been discovered and could no doubt be developed with little money and a little effort on the part of our graduate students but the cumulative benefits of the new wire exploration may not be large enough to be worth it.
I will be exploring other wires as they become available and I'm willing to change if some thing a little better or cheaper is out there but I don't expect a major revolution to be over the hill. Things are actually pretty good now. In the mean time I will be fiddling with wicks and looking at Escribe screens to optimize delivery of liquid to my coils because experience so far says that's the becoming the key issue of the day-week-month for me.
Duane
I'm certainly not advocating dry burning Titanium either - that's my whole point, that you can easily dry burn NiFe and SS but normally should not with Titanium (though I do understand it's possible if one is very careful.)
As for linear TCR, NiFe52 is just as linear, albeit at an slightly lower level of sensitivity (higher TCR but lower resistance). We see from vapealone's graph that, relative to Ni200, Titanium is about 3.5 more sensitive/accurate, where NiFe52 is 3 times. That's an on-paper benefit, but I am not sure it's going to be any real-life benefit. We're still talking 3 times more accurate than Ni200!
It might be a real life benefit compared to Stainless Steel, which is only 1.3 times more accurate than Ni200 - then again, it's still more accurate than Ni200, a wire we all felt we got decent TC accuracy with.
SS and NiFe are definitely not a major revolution. They're a small incremental benefit. But as they're soon to be available at the same cost and wire gauges, for me it's a case of "why not use them?"
In other words, I've yet to be shown a real life benefit that Titanium has over NiFe that would mean I wouldn't want NiFes benefits of dry burnability and lack of springiness. Maybe one exists, which is why I'm always interested in new data and findings, but one hasn't yet been discussed. You did propose one possible one - that NiFes might be variable in their TCRs. That remains to be seen. We do know that Stealth's NiFe70 will have a guaranteed TCR.
And the benefit of Titanium over SS - more accurate/sensitive - is one that I'm no longer sure is that important real life, given we now see that even SS can be more accurate than Ni200.
Anyway, all the facts are not yet in, but I hope to get them in before too long. I will always use the wire that has the most practical benefits, taking into account everything - real life accuracy, real life usability, cost, availability, possible builds, etc. So far that seems to me to point away from Titanium, but things can change as we learn more.
As for linear TCR, NiFe52 is just as linear, albeit at an slightly lower level of sensitivity (higher TCR but lower resistance). We see from vapealone's graph that, relative to Ni200, Titanium is about 3.5 more sensitive/accurate, where NiFe52 is 3 times. That's an on-paper benefit, but I am not sure it's going to be any real-life benefit. We're still talking 3 times more accurate than Ni200!
It might be a real life benefit compared to Stainless Steel, which is only 1.3 times more accurate than Ni200 - then again, it's still more accurate than Ni200, a wire we all felt we got decent TC accuracy with.
SS and NiFe are definitely not a major revolution. They're a small incremental benefit. But as they're soon to be available at the same cost and wire gauges, for me it's a case of "why not use them?"
In other words, I've yet to be shown a real life benefit that Titanium has over NiFe that would mean I wouldn't want NiFes benefits of dry burnability and lack of springiness. Maybe one exists, which is why I'm always interested in new data and findings, but one hasn't yet been discussed. You did propose one possible one - that NiFes might be variable in their TCRs. That remains to be seen. We do know that Stealth's NiFe70 will have a guaranteed TCR.
And the benefit of Titanium over SS - more accurate/sensitive - is one that I'm no longer sure is that important real life, given we now see that even SS can be more accurate than Ni200.
Anyway, all the facts are not yet in, but I hope to get them in before too long. I will always use the wire that has the most practical benefits, taking into account everything - real life accuracy, real life usability, cost, availability, possible builds, etc. So far that seems to me to point away from Titanium, but things can change as we learn more.
Another point is that there doesn't have to be one wire to rule them all. Get spools of all of them and try different things. One might be best in one build, another in another.
It might be that Titanium at 24G has advantages where that's a possible build - NiFe52 won't even be available at 24G, at least yet. But where 24G won't fit/isn't desirable, the others are then preferable.
I can certainly see myself having a couple of Ti 24G builds, because I can fit them in some atomizers and thus get a lot of surface area but I won't want to bother twisting 2x26 or 2x28 NiFe. SS will be available in 24G, but maybe the resistance will then be too low for best accuracy.
If NiFe52 became available in 24, then that use of Ti might go away for me, but it might never become available. We'll see.
It might be that Titanium at 24G has advantages where that's a possible build - NiFe52 won't even be available at 24G, at least yet. But where 24G won't fit/isn't desirable, the others are then preferable.
I can certainly see myself having a couple of Ti 24G builds, because I can fit them in some atomizers and thus get a lot of surface area but I won't want to bother twisting 2x26 or 2x28 NiFe. SS will be available in 24G, but maybe the resistance will then be too low for best accuracy.
If NiFe52 became available in 24, then that use of Ti might go away for me, but it might never become available. We'll see.
I agree that it's likely that we'll want one type of wire in one atty/device and another type in a different setup.
I've noticed that already for some of my own builds. My Manta squonker doesn't seem to like the same things that my Ubertoot likes.
I think it's likely that we'll find the largest uses for whichever wire is dimensionally stable in our coils, has good resistance and TCR, (good sensitivity to temp changes for temp limiting accuracy), has lowest cost and provides the most reproducible performance, ie least variability from batch to batch because of chemistry and processing variations. The latter point will become more important with time I think.
These things remain to be proven.
Some folks also seem to be extremely sensitive to some elements such as nickel. I don't understand exactly how nickel is getting off the coil at our temperatures but I don't doubt the allergy effects that are being reported.
There's going to be a need for more than one coil material and we're going to be able to make choices. This is an interesting time for vaping.
Duane
One would think you'd want to avoid dry burning NiFe for the same reason you'd avoid it with Ni200. Lets not forget, it's composed of 52% to 70% nickel.
But Ni200 is rated only to 315°C/600°F and the NiFes to 600°C/1110°F - in other words it's specified to remain unchanged at a constant air temperature of 600°C.
So to my understanding it's not comparable to Ni200 because the specification is higher, and where Ni200 is stated to break down/change its nature at dry-burn temperatures, NiFe is not.
I'm not advocating actually vaping at VW temps, only for cleaning/testing. So my understanding was that if, as specified, it remains the same at up to 600°C, there should be no difference when it then is later vaped (at normal TC temps.)
So to my understanding it's not comparable to Ni200 because the specification is higher, and where Ni200 is stated to break down/change its nature at dry-burn temperatures, NiFe is not.
I'm not advocating actually vaping at VW temps, only for cleaning/testing. So my understanding was that if, as specified, it remains the same at up to 600°C, there should be no difference when it then is later vaped (at normal TC temps.)
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Which I suppose does raise the question - can I be sure when dry burning it's not exceeding 600°C? And the answer is no, not absolutely certain. I only dry burn the minimum necessary for the task at hand, and in pulses, but this is on my list to verify with temp probing.
I wish there was a TC mod that would allow the scale to go up to 600°C. I know why they don't do it, but for this sort of stuff it would be very useful.
Actually I should be able to check it by observation, even without temp probing, on any mod with live ohm resistance in VW mode - iJoy Asolo for example.
Edit: and the SXKs and Apollo Reliant also have live ohms in VW.
Actually I should be able to check it by observation, even without temp probing, on any mod with live ohm resistance in VW mode - iJoy Asolo for example.
Edit: and the SXKs and Apollo Reliant also have live ohms in VW.
Any dry burn/coil that glows is exceeding a temperature of 1200F. If the glow of the coil is detectable in daylight it's likely that it's exceeding that temperature by a lot.
Duane
Ah, OK Well then, maybe NiFe shouldn't be dry burnt to glowing then. Stainless Steel seems better, maximum service temperature for most of them being 870°C/ 1600°F
Not that we necessarily need >600°C at least for cleaning.
I'll do some tests.
Well then, maybe NiFe shouldn't be dry burnt to glowing then. Stainless Steel seems better, maximum service temperature for most of them being 870°C/ 1600°FNot that we necessarily need >600°C at least for cleaning.
I'll do some tests.
Though this chart says 525°C is "visible in daylight" with 581°C being "visible in sunlight"
Know Temperature when metal glows red | Hearth.com Forums Home
Not that I'd want to get as close as 580 to the max of 600 without limiting controls
And yes I have almost certainly been going above 'dark cherry' in the past
Know Temperature when metal glows red | Hearth.com Forums Home
Not that I'd want to get as close as 580 to the max of 600 without limiting controls
And yes I have almost certainly been going above 'dark cherry' in the past
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