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TheBloke

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vaping With Ni200: Our Tortured Past
or, How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Hate Ni200

vlcsnap-2010-08-04-11h44m10s27.png
X3LKh7Am.jpg


Chapter 1: "What Were They Thinking?" - An Evolv Retrospective (Pages 1 - 23)
Chapter 2: Resistance is Futile (Pages 24 - 50)
Chapter 3: Nickel Sensitivities: What To Do If Your Tongue Explodes (Pages 51 - 78)
Chapter 4: TC Accuracy: Our Dreams For The Future (Pages 79 - 99)
Chapter 5: High Capacity batteries, And Why You'll Need Them (Pages 100 - 111)
Chapter 6: A Complete Guide To Possible Coil Builds (Page 112, first half)
Chapter 7: Contact coils: An Obituary (Pages 112 - 147)
Chapters 8 - 19: Possible Alternatives to Ni200 (Pages 148 - 1194)
 
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LouisLeBeau

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As long as the coiling material is Ti, then it doesn't matter what kind of coil you use. It can be a quad double dragon fused clapton for all TC cares. All the mod needs to know is 1) that it's Ti and 2) what the base resistance of coil is at room temperature.

As for spaced coils, this goes back to nickel because nickel was prone to shorts and hot legs, etc. I have had no problem with squeezing my Ti coils.

Awwww.. now I gotta rip apart this double coil spaced Ti wrap. That's OK, it was 0.5ohm which my IPV4s didn't seem to care much about at first, but now refuses to work in Temp mode. Duh. .3 max in the specs. At least now I can use those nifty Ceramic tweezers I got for Fathers Day!

Now if they would only come out with some updates for my Yihi, or that Smok Xcube II would get here... Then I can Mack the NiFe!
 

LouisLeBeau

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Vaping With Ni200: Our Tortured Past
or, How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Hate Ni200

vlcsnap-2010-08-04-11h44m10s27.png
X3LKh7Am.jpg


Chapter 1: "What Were They Thinking?" - An Evolv Retrospective (Pages 1 - 23)
Chapter 2: Resistance is Futile (Pages 24 - 50)
Chapter 3: Nickel Sensitivities: What To Do If Your Tongue Explodes (Pages 51 - 78)
Chapter 4: TC Accuracy: Our Dreams For The Future (Pages 79 - 99)
Chapter 5: High Capacity Batteries, And Why You'll Need Them (Pages 100 - 111)
Chapter 6: A Complete Guide To Possible Coil Builds (Page 112, first half)
Chapter 7: Contact Coils: An Obituary (Pages 112 - 147)

LOL!!! Thankfully (due to this thread) I never ONCE vaped an Ni200 coil! Of course, that doesn't mean I didn't ORDER any........ then realize I already HAD some for my Penny's and Ithaka's... :facepalm:
 

TheBloke

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Awwww.. now I gotta rip apart this double coil spaced Ti wrap. That's OK, it was 0.5ohm which my IPV4s didn't seem to care much about at first, but now refuses to work in Temp mode. Duh. .3 max in the specs. At least now I can use those nifty Ceramic tweezers I got for Fathers Day!

Now if they would only come out with some updates for my Yihi, or that Smok Xcube II would get here... Then I can Mack the NiFe!

You can use NiFe on any TC mod, even the first gen Ni200-only ones :) Using temperature offsets, like many people use to vape Titanium on an Ni200 mod.

Or a mod with Titanium mode (like your IPV4 has) can be used with a lesser offset. It's only Stainless Steel that requires a special mode (although some success can be with SS on mods with a Titanium mode, by vaping at 200°F/100°C, which will be around 260°C but on some mods that underheat, like the Joyetech, is only 230-240°C / 450-460°F - a good TC temp.)
 
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BigEgo

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You can use NiFe on any TC mod, even the first gen Ni200-only ones :) Using temperature offsets, like many people use to vape Titanium on an Ni200 mod.

Or a mod with Titanium mode (like your IPV4 has) can be used with a lesser offset. It's only Stainless Steel that requires a special mode (although some success can be with SS on mods with a Titanium mode, by vaping at 200°F/100°C, which will be around 260°C but on some mods that underheat, like the Joyetech, is only 230-240°C / 450-460°F - a good TC temp.)

Bloke do you do any temperature testing of your mods with a thermocouple? If so, I would be interested in seeing your numbers.
 

TheBloke

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Bloke do you do any temperature testing of your mods with a thermocouple? If so, I would be interested in seeing your numbers.

I do indeed yes. I haven't tested NiFe on Ni200/Titanium mods yet to get the offsets, but am going to do so as soon as I get NiFe70 and 52 in proper gauges (eg 26) and then start testing them properly. Which I hope will be this week, next latest.

For the DNA 40, we don't need tested results as Wire Wizard has the "Ni200 Equivalence" chart - this works perfectly on the DNA 40 which has the full Ni200 curve implemented, but other mods need different (and lower) offsets.

I have the UNI-T UT325C thermocouple logger and some Type K probes from eBay. But I ordered a better probe yesterday, a more professional one, which I hope should be more accurate and more usable and definitely has a higher maximum, up to 700°C. The probes I use at the moment have fast response time but are incredibly springy and hard to hold in position, and are specced for a max of 260°C.

Right now I'm testing the Smok XCube 2 and the Koopor along with the Reliant, and will be posting graphs asap. I've built myself an external atomizer, to make the testing much easier - when I last did my testing I did it in-situ, on a Derringer RDA on top of the mod. It was quite inconvenient, as I had to keep the mod perfectly still in a clamp, hard to adjust settings etc, and it was very cramped working on a small atomizer deck trying to get probes in the right position.

So now I have the Frankenizer :) Brass wire holders (taken out of some old 13A wall plugs) soldered onto 4mm banana sockets, then two 25mm^2 car battery cables (gauge 3 wire) with banana plugs on one end and soldered directly to a Derringer (clone) RDA base at the other end. I used another banana plug to make the positive pin, as it fit perfectly through the middle of the Derringer (held in place, somewhat loosely at the moment, with some thick PVC insulator.)

The static resistance of the whole setup is 0.0025Ω which I'm quite pleased with - better than many real atomizers. As well as being more convenient for temp probing, the external setup also makes it much easier to attach an external ohms reader, and hook on the oscilloscope.

I used banana plugs so I could quickly unplug it to simulate an atomizer detach/re-attach, and also because I plan to setup multiple "atomizers" so I can have several coils setup in parallel and move between them without constantly replacing coils.

The setup I'm using right now:






Edit: I soldered a couple of brass tabs on to the posts to make attaching the oscilloscope even easier:

 
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TheotherSteveS

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I do indeed yes. I haven't tested NiFe on Ni200/Titanium mods yet to get the offsets, but am going to do so as soon as I get NiFe70 and 52 in proper gauges (eg 26) and then start testing them properly. Which I hope will be this week, next latest.

For the DNA 40, we don't need tested results as Wire Wizard has the "Ni200 Equivalence" chart - this works perfectly on the DNA 40 which has the full Ni200 curve implemented, but other mods need different (and lower) offsets.

I have the UNI-T UT325C thermocouple logger and some Type K probes from eBay. But I ordered a better probe yesterday, a more professional one, which I hope should be more accurate and more usable and definitely has a higher maximum, up to 700°C. The probes I use at the moment have fast response time but are incredibly springy and hard to hold in position, and are specced for a max of 260°C.

Right now I'm testing the Smok XCube 2 and the Koopor along with the Reliant, and will be posting graphs asap. I've built myself an external atomizer, to make the testing much easier - when I last did my testing I did it in-situ, on a Derringer RDA on top of the mod. It was quite inconvenient, as I had to keep the mod perfectly still in a clamp, hard to adjust settings etc, and it was very cramped working on a small atomizer deck trying to get probes in the right position.

So now I have the Frankenizer :) Brass wire holders (taken out of some old 13A wall plugs) soldered onto 4mm banana sockets, then two 25mm^2 car battery cables (gauge 3 wire) with banana plugs on one end and soldered directly to a Derringer (clone) RDA base at the other end. I used another banana plug to make the positive pin, as it fit perfectly through the middle of the Derringer (held in place, somewhat loosely at the moment, with some thick PVC insulator.)

The static resistance of the whole setup is 0.0025Ω which I'm quite pleased with - better than many real atomizers. As well as being more convenient for temp probing, the external setup also makes it much easier to attach an external ohms reader, and hook on the oscilloscope.

I used banana plugs so I could quickly unplug it to simulate an atomizer detach/re-attach, and also because I plan to setup multiple "atomizers" so I can have several coils setup in parallel and move between them without constantly replacing coils.

The setup I'm using right now:






Edit: I soldered a couple of brass tabs on to the posts to make attaching the oscilloscope even easier:


'I command you to live....more power Igor....' lol!
 

BigEgo

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I do indeed yes. I haven't tested NiFe on Ni200/Titanium mods yet to get the offsets, but am going to do so as soon as I get NiFe70 and 52 in proper gauges (eg 26) and then start testing them properly. Which I hope will be this week, next latest.

For the DNA 40, we don't need tested results as Wire Wizard has the "Ni200 Equivalence" chart - this works perfectly on the DNA 40 which has the full Ni200 curve implemented, but other mods need different (and lower) offsets.

I have the UNI-T UT325C thermocouple logger and some Type K probes from eBay. But I ordered a better probe yesterday, a more professional one, which I hope should be more accurate and more usable and definitely has a higher maximum, up to 700°C. The probes I use at the moment have fast response time but are incredibly springy and hard to hold in position, and are specced for a max of 260°C.

Right now I'm testing the Smok XCube 2 and the Koopor along with the Reliant, and will be posting graphs asap. I've built myself an external atomizer, to make the testing much easier - when I last did my testing I did it in-situ, on a Derringer RDA on top of the mod. It was quite inconvenient, as I had to keep the mod perfectly still in a clamp, hard to adjust settings etc, and it was very cramped working on a small atomizer deck trying to get probes in the right position.

So now I have the Frankenizer :) Brass wire holders (taken out of some old 13A wall plugs) soldered onto 4mm banana sockets, then two 25mm^2 car battery cables (gauge 3 wire) with banana plugs on one end and soldered directly to a Derringer (clone) RDA base at the other end. I used another banana plug to make the positive pin, as it fit perfectly through the middle of the Derringer (held in place, somewhat loosely at the moment, with some thick PVC insulator.)

The static resistance of the whole setup is 0.0025Ω which I'm quite pleased with - better than many real atomizers. As well as being more convenient for temp probing, the external setup also makes it much easier to attach an external ohms reader, and hook on the oscilloscope.

I used banana plugs so I could quickly unplug it to simulate an atomizer detach/re-attach, and also because I plan to setup multiple "atomizers" so I can have several coils setup in parallel and move between them without constantly replacing coils.

The setup I'm using right now:






Edit: I soldered a couple of brass tabs on to the posts to make attaching the oscilloscope even easier:


Can you give us any results of the mods you've tested in regard to temperature accuracy? I am talking about past tests, not trying to rush you on your current tests. ;)
 

TheBloke

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Here's a couple of examples from when I first did my testing.

All of these are dry coil tests with no airflow. This definitely makes no difference to the DNA 40, as I later tested it with wet coil + airflow. I didn't re-test the others. I was very surprised that the Dicodes, while perfectly accurate for the majority of the vape, seemed to overshoot so badly at the beginning. My theory was that this was due to the dry coil test and repeated re-presses of fire in a short time (the Dicodes cut-out is quite brief.) To be validated.

I've improved things in my methodology a fair bit since and now I have my test rig I hope to get more results up quickly from now on. Especially with the new professional probe, when that arrives next week.

So these are just an idea of the sort of info possible, rather than necessarily 100% accurate (except for the DNA 40 one which I'm quite pleased with; with the one exception of the 185°C result seemingly being a little low, the numbers I empirically tested matched well to the theoretical numbers shown on the Wire Wizard Ni200 Equivalence chart.)


DNA 40 testing for Titanium offsets



(I now think that my 185°C result was probably ~3°C short, probably due to imperfect probe placement.)

Dicodes 2380 test to verify the TCR of Titanium



SXK chip, first generation, verification of "Nickel Purity" (TCR) setting for Titanium

 
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TheBloke

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And if that seems quite inaccurate, bear in mind that a 0.12Ω coil is inaccurate by 17.5°C from 0.01Ω of SR. So the results don't surprise me. I don't know what my SR was back in those days - that's something I'll be able to monitor in future tests, and potentially even adjust to confirm our inaccuracy predictions from varying amounts of SR.
 
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TheotherSteveS

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Here's a couple of examples from when I first did my testing.

All of these are dry coil tests with no airflow. This definitely makes no difference to the DNA 40, as I later tested it with wet coil + airflow. I didn't re-test the others. I was very surprised that the Dicodes, while perfectly accurate for the majority of the vape, seemed to overshoot so badly at the beginning. My theory was that this was due to the dry coil test and repeated re-presses of fire in a short time (the Dicodes cut-out is quite brief.) To be validated.

I've improved things in my methodology a fair bit since and now I have my test rig I hope to get more results up quickly from now on. Especially with the new professional probe, when that arrives next week.

So these are just an idea of the sort of info possible, rather than necessarily 100% accurate (except for the DNA 40 one which I'm quite pleased with; with the one exception of the 185°C result seemingly being a little low, the numbers I empirically tested matched well to the theoretical numbers shown on the Wire Wizard Ni200 Equivalence chart.)


DNA 40 testing for Titanium offsets



(I now think that my 185°C result was probably ~3°C short, probably due to imperfect probe placement.)

Dicodes 2380 test to verify the TCR of Titanium



SXK chip, first generation, verification of "Nickel Purity" (TCR) setting for Titanium

awesome stuff my man. Have to say, they all make sense from my empirical viewpoint and comparing vapes acrioss mods with the same atty/build. FOR the SXK I arrived at 38-39 as the right TCR for Ti. 40 felt a tad too hot though (=a bit burnt on a long draw) and 36 a bit anaemic! Also, tthe DNA40 is pretty impressive as is the dicodes in a different way! Nice work my friend. Very impressive stuff!
 
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TheBloke

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awesome stuff my man. Have to say, they all make sense from my empirical viewpoint and comparing vapes acrioss mods with the same atty/build. FOR the SXK I arrived at 38-39 as the right TCR for Ti. 40 felt a tad too hot though (=a bit burnt on a long draw) and 36 a bit anaemic! Also, tthe DNA40 is pretty impressive as is the dicodes in a different way! Nice work my friend. Very impressive stuff!

Cheers m'dears! Although I was going to say that looking again at my chart, I might equally recommend NP 41 instead of 40 :) Mabe not actually. It was a choice between a little too low (40) and up to 20°C too high (41). Anyway if 39 feels right for you then that's all that matters! What temp do you use in general?

The good news is the Apollo Reliant, with the latest version of the SXK chip (+ potentially Apollo's own requested improvements, to an unknown extent) appears a lot more reliable and stable.

There's a new SXK coming out any day now, the SXK Mini Zero, so it'll be interesting to see how that shapes up. I'm very pleased with my three SXKs though - not the best TC, but they do work and they work with SS which is still highly unique. And they're incredibly well priced.

@TheBloke any news from zivipf on the NiFe52?? Still not on the site...

No fraid not. He ordered it on 28th August, and when I asked for a rough ETA he said he thought two weeks. Two weeks from the 28th was last Thursday, September 11th. But he also said he didn't really know and that the wire was not in stock and had to be produced. So I suppose worst case he was very wrong and it could be a lot longer. He did say he would contact me as soon as it arrived, so I don't like to chase too much. I guess I'll wait until beginning of next week, and then if I've still not heard I'll ask if there's any update - then maybe he'll contact them to ask for an ETA, if he hasn't already.

Stealth's NiFe70 should hopefully be available sometime during next week.

Crazy Wire's NiFe70... who can possibly say :) Needless to say I've not yet heard anything further from them this week.
 

TheBloke

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Is this chart good? I assume it is but I don't know how much airflow was being applied.

Re airflow, nor do I! :) I mean, I know how much I applied, but it's hard to say how it compares in volume to a real vape. Neither vastly more nor vastly less, I think, but where in between I cannot yet say.

I have some rubber tubing and have been thinking of doing a real airflow test, but then that requires constricting the airflow with a chimney and other considerations. I will also try some more in-situ tests, in real atomizers, where obviously that's easier - though there's still the issue of getting the probe in place with a chimney in place.

I think that chart, considering it's Ni200 - the least accurate of all the possible wires - is "ok". I'll do similar charts with other mods and Titanium/NiFe/SS soon, and then we'll get a better picture. I threw that up only as an example of the sort of data I can and have got, not necessarily as a point of comparison on the accuracy of that or any mod.

I'll try and post some findings tonight on the Apollo Reliant
 

TheotherSteveS

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Cheers m'dears! Although I was going to say that looking again at my chart, I might equally recommend NP 41 instead of 40 :) Mabe not actually. It was a choice between a little too low (40) and up to 20°C too high (41). Anyway if 39 feels right for you then that's all that matters! What temp do you use in general?

The good news is the Apollo Reliant, with the latest version of the SXK chip (+ potentially Apollo's own requested improvements, to an unknown extent) appears a lot more reliable and stable.

There's a new SXK coming out any day now, the SXK Mini Zero, so it'll be interesting to see how that shapes up. I'm very pleased with my three SXKs though - not the best TC, but they do work and they work with SS which is still highly unique. And they're incredibly well priced.



No fraid not. He ordered it on 28th August, and when I asked for a rough ETA he said he thought two weeks. Two weeks from the 28th was last Thursday, September 11th. But he also said he didn't really know and that the wire was not in stock and had to be produced. So I suppose worst case he was very wrong and it could be a lot longer. He did say he would contact me as soon as it arrived, so I don't like to chase too much. I guess I'll wait until beginning of next week, and then if I've still not heard I'll ask if there's any update - then maybe he'll contact them to ask for an ETA, if he hasn't already.

Stealth's NiFe70 should hopefully be available sometime during next week.

Crazy Wire's NiFe70... who can possibly say :) Needless to say I've not yet heard anything further from them this week.


thinking about it Im running at 440 in a subtank mini at the moment. I might have another play on the basis of your data...stay tuned!
 
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TheotherSteveS

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so for what its worth, went to 40 and stayed at 440F. Still fine. A little warmer if anything. 420 is a bit undercooked still. Not much in it I would say but Ill stay at 40 and report back if anything bad happens. I hit it pretty hard and no burning so looking good for around 40 at least with my set up! I'll try tomorrow with a more challenging atty...
 

cigatron

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Is this chart good? I assume it is but I don't know how much airflow was being applied.

The tc mods just measure res for temp control so why would airflow matter, other than requiring more power to achieve target res/temp?

Granted airflow and wicking affect rise/fall time of temp but shouldn't effect tcr values/ temp accuracy......yes?
 
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