The ABCs of batteries

Status
Not open for further replies.
Personally, I think 3.7v is just fine - so long as the battery is of a suitable size, as this not only lasts longer but is able to put out more current (lower internal resistance); the difference is quite remarkable. Once you have a decent 3.7v battery, you won't seek a higher voltage IMO.
 

a2dcovert

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 24, 2009
1,929
7
Louisiana
I just find it hard to believe that this myth about battery charging is continuing. mogur is right about the charging of protected Li-Ion batteries. The protection circuit is designed to protect the battery from over charging, trickle charging, and excessive discharging. I don't care what the manufacturer says about charging the batteries, it does not apply to Li-Ion batteries. Once the light on the charger turns green the charging circuit is terminated, period. You can leave the battery on the charger till hell freezes over and it wont charge the battery any more than it is after the circuit terminates. Leaving the battery on charge any aditional time is just a waste of time. But, if you wiah to still follow the manufactures instructions then by all means do so. it wont hurt because the protection circuit will protect the battery from all of the above conditions.

You can do what you wish because there is no way you can harm these protected batteries with the battery charger. The protection circuit will always protect the batteries from abuse. So waste your time if you wish to, it wont hurt.

Kevin
 

vapordad

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jun 8, 2009
176
5
Oak Park, IL -- USA
Sorry But This Is Wrong: Maybe Thats Why No One Asked You.

I don't know either cellmeister or mogur.

Cellmeister,

I have to say that the first 5 words on here, followed by the next 7 in your first response to mogur are quite frankly, ****!

If, in fact, you want to protect the rest of us with your advice in the rest of the post, you might try being a bit nicer. I also think that mogur was pretty good about his first couple of rebuttals, but don't blame him for getting snippy when you repeatedly criticized him.

Further, he sounds like he has done more research on the subject, and quotes outside sources, unlike you who keeps just repeating that he's wrong.

Get a Flippin' life, Cellmeister. It is posts like yours, in otherwise helpful threads, that make me enjoy the other e-cig forums better. Grow up.

Mogur, thanks for assisting the rest of us and imparting a little knowledge in spite of some jackass with a chip on his shoulder.

Cellmeister. Take this how you like, but your attack reminds me of the shock and awe attack of 2003--unprovoked.
 

joedirt

Full Member
Verified Member
Aug 11, 2009
45
0
There really isn't "good" LiIon batteries and better one. There are some mislabeled especially the 18650's which might lie about the 2400mAh. (Unless you are talking about the different Lithium mixes being used like Cobalt, etc.. But for the cheapy batteries they are all the same, and you only need to compare the mAh)

You have to decide how much current you want which sets the heat. This is also probably related to how much air you suck past the heater as well, or how "wet" the coil part gets.

So, say you have a 1" coil and it is 3ohms. And you have another coil from different atty that is 1/2" and comes in at 1.5ohms (same NiCr wire). The heat the coil gets up to is based on the current for both. 1A should be some temp, however in terms of heat generated, it is I^2*R so the larger coil has more heater area and more resistance so twice the heat is applied to the air (a 3W heater instead of 1.5W heater)

Now if you apply a fixed voltage, like 3.7V to both, this sort of compensates, but the temp of the coil is different. For a fixed voltage case, the 3ohm coil, it is 1.2A and 4.6Watts. For the 1.5ohm coil, it is 2.5A and 9.1W. Power for a fixed battery voltage is V^2/R so twice the resistance half the heat. However, in this case the smaller coil gets much hotter with 2.5A and might burn more, it might also vaporize a lot more because of extra convection and radiation (which I'll have to look, but might be proportional to temp squared).

The reason the battery rating matters is besides the longer usage on a charge, as a rule of thumb for LiIon batteries can discharge safely "1C" so a 2200mAh shouldn't exceed 2.2amps or you are reducing the battery life. Though, for this application it is very short bursts over a long period of time.

This is partly why I suspect the stock AAAA size batteries don't live up to 200 charges.. because the smaller capacity 3.7V batteries can't handle the 1000mA or so.

Battery University The high-power lithium-ion
batteryuniversity.com/partone-5A .htm


---------------------------------
My current ideal solution is to take two heater coils in one atty and then use one 3.7V battery and the size of it depends on how long between recharges. I also think using a L200C voltage regulator with adjustable current control would be the simplest solution

Also make sure you use the protected LiIon. In fact for the people using the 7.4V stack of two, they sell voltage protection mini PCB for those applications for like $1-$2 and it will keep the batteries charging better. Un-protected ones could be really bad in your pocket.
 
The reason the battery rating matters is besides the longer usage on a charge, as a rule of thumb for LiIon batteries can discharge safely "1C" so a 2200mAh shouldn't exceed 2.2amps or you are reducing the battery life. Though, for this application it is very short bursts over a long period of time.

This is partly why I suspect the stock AAAA size batteries don't live up to 200 charges.. because the smaller capacity 3.7V batteries can't handle the 1000mA or so.

A good point - higher capacity batteries not only last longer between charges (obvious) but will also probably do more recharges (especially in high current drain application such as the e-cig). So their overall lifetime will be far greater, years rather than months.
 

joedirt

Full Member
Verified Member
Aug 11, 2009
45
0
A good point - higher capacity batteries not only last longer between charges (obvious) but will also probably do more recharges (especially in high current drain application such as the e-cig). So their overall lifetime will be far greater, years rather than months.

You can look at some of the google stuff for lithium ion. I think most 3.7V are lifetime of 300 full charge/discharge cycles. But YMMV as there are Cobalt, LiFePO4, Manganese Oxide, etc. versions of LiIon

There are some newer MnO LiIon mixes like the ones used for powertools. You'll notice they are only like 1100mAh but they can put out 5C or 10C discharge rates (so like 15Amps!!). Basically, if you are using more then 1C bump down the effective mAh capacity by like 10%. I can't see these new cells being useful for the same size.


There are like 20 mfgs of "cells" so these are all what you buy as a "18650" (most likely the chinese vendor)

Newer MnO cells
Sanyo UR18650W 1600mAh - 700 cycles until 75% initial capacity
Sony 18650VT 1000mAh - 500 cycles until 90% capacity (2A discharges)
Saphion IFR28650p 1100mAh - 600 cycles until 70% capacity (10A)


Maybe we can get a list of common cells that show up as the 2400mAh chinese ones.


I would say this..
If you had a 16340 with 3.6V 800mAh. Not only is a 2400mAh battery going to last almost three times as long on a charge, but if your discharge rate is too high (like drawing 1A or more), then your battery will die prematurely. Especially if we are talking about a 3V 700mAh CR123.

Also one quick comment a USB passthrough hooked to a computer will only allow 5V and 500mA (it is current limited even though a large 5V battery would be doing 1700mA).


From here source academic paper.
http://www.electrochem.org/dl/ma/202/pdfs/0209.PDF

lith1.png
 

joedirt

Full Member
Verified Member
Aug 11, 2009
45
0
Also, store not-used batteries with like 40% charge on them. They will drop over time so charge them back up to 40% like once a month. (or charge to 100% and use them for a little bit).

There is no "memory" effects on Lithium Ions. There is no need to totally discharge first and then recharge. This applies to regular old protected LiIons you bought as a rechargeable battery.

****NOTE: this may not be true with the sealed smart batteries and the microcontrollers that blink when low or used too often. Also they appear to have a cleaning cycle on some, so follow directions on these.

Never charge a really cold battery and probably not a really hot one. It effects the chemistry inside and you lose some capacity.
 

Sun Vaporer

Moved On
ECF Veteran
Jan 2, 2009
10,146
27
Florida
You are way over my head. I just have a simple question about the 18650's at DX. They seem to be less expensive for more mAh.
exp:
$8.18 for 2500 mAh (blue) vs. $8.79 for 2000 mAh (grey)
Is there any difference between the blue and grey? Reason for the pricing? What am I missing?
Thanks


42--Yes--a big difference--the grey ones are protected batteries (Short circuit, over-charge and discharge protection) as opposed to the blue which are not---protected is the way to go for saftey as you do not what them to blow up on you.

Sun
 

four2109

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 9, 2009
2,995
1,787
S. Indiana

Sun Vaporer

Moved On
ECF Veteran
Jan 2, 2009
10,146
27
Florida
Thanks Sun, But the blue are Protected too. That's what I got for 14500's. I was shopping tonight and saw the price difference. It's not much, but I just wanted to make sure I am not missing something.

DealExtreme: $8.18 TrustFire Protected 18650 Lithium Battery (2500mAh 2-Pack Blue)
TrustFire Protected 18650 Lithium Battery (2500mAh 2-Pack Blue)

Price: $8.18


Less of a Protection 42--there is no short protection as stated (- The voltage of full charge and cut-off discharge is 4.2V and 2.75V)---only protected for over and under charging.

Sun
 

four2109

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
May 9, 2009
2,995
1,787
S. Indiana
Less of a Protection 42--there is no short protection as stated (- The voltage of full charge and cut-off discharge is 4.2V and 2.75V)---only protected for over and under charging.

Sun

Thanks again Sun. My 14500's have it. Now I know that you have to compare the fine print in the photos.
Thanks
 

LostInDaJungle

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 21, 2009
97
2
Sorry But This Is Wrong: Maybe Thats Why No One Asked You.

Start Quote:
"Also, don't charge until the green light comes on and then give it few more hours, like I have heard repeated so often. That is a myth leftover from the days of NiCds and NiMHs that have a 'memory effect'. Lithium ions have no such memory effect. None. Nada. They don't need to be 'topped off' like NiMHs, nor frequently discharge cycled like NiCds. They do like a moderate discharge to 3 volts or so every 100 charges to recalibrate the electronic surveillence circuit that monitors its charge status." End Quote

If You Don't Know What Your Posting

Start Quote: "I am certainly no expert, and have learned a considerable portion of what I know about batteries in just the last few weeks" End Quote

You Should Not Post It Here, You Are Causing Confusion To The Readers With Non-Facts...

RIGHT WAY On How To Charge Your Devices Battery: Always Follow The Manufacturers Battery Charging & Use Procedures. PERIOD!

For Proper Battery Information & Other Battery Information Please Use Wiki or Any Other Legitimate Site.

I too find that information to be confusing....

If the green light comes on and the battery is still trickle charging, all you are doing is charging the battery to it's max capacity. This is a bad thing for Lithium batteries.

The longevity of lithium batteries is affected by two things: Temperature and charge capacity. Lithium Batteries should be charged to 4.2 volts and then removed from charging. Charging batteries to 4.35 volts will HALVE the battery's life! [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A continuous trickle charge above 4.05V/cell causes plating of metallic lithium that could lead to instabilities and compromise safety.

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Lithium-ion is designed to operate safely within their normal operating voltage but become unstable if charged to higher voltages. When charging above 4.30V, the cell causes plating of metallic lithium on the anode; the cathode material becomes an oxidizing agent, loses stability and releases oxygen. [/FONT]

So, assuming that the charger is doing it's job, it should cut off the charge at 4.2 volts. Assuming it ISN'T, the battery itself should cut off at 4.3 volts.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Preparing new lithium-ion for use

Unlike nickel and lead-based batteries, a new lithium-ion pack does not need cycling through charging and discharging. Priming will make little difference because the maximum capacity of lithium-ion is available right from the beginning. Neither does a full discharge improve the capacity of a faded pack. However, a full discharge/charge will reset the digital circuit of a 'smart' battery to improve the state-of-charge estimation
[/FONT]

In short, there's no good reason to spend 8 hours charging the battery before use.

One major point: Don't forget the effect on temperature on your batteries! If you are storing batteries for potential backup, keep them in the fridge with a 40% charge on them for longest life. DO NOT charge the battery and then put it on the shelf. DO NOT freeze batteries! The longer your battery stays at 100% charge, the shorter its life. (So, it's kinda a good thing that the batteries don't come pre-charged.)

If you'd like to follow the manufacturer's guidelines, then do so. But the original poster was correct, and for someone to say "Noone asked you" and "You don't know what you're posting" is both rude and foolish. There were alot better ways that could have been handled. A simple "As a supplier I always recommend following the manufacturer's guidelines" would have sufficed.
 

grumpster

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
May 18, 2009
172
4
Texas USA
Reading this thread was like watching a train wreck or one of those really bad "B" rated movies. It's horrible, but somehow, you just can't tear yourself away from it. I'm so glad things finally settled down. I do know one thing. On the forums that I own I would have PM'd him to settle down and if it continued I would have banned him. It's one thing to disagree with some one. I've done that many times bot on line and off. But to attack some one like that it ridiculous. His very first two sentences were about as confrontational as they could have been. I agree with the majority of people here on two things. One, the OP provided some good information and it was appreciated. Second, the attacks by cellmeister were not appropriate.

Thank_____It's______Over____Done______!
______God____Finally_____And_____With__ 8-o


Sorry, I couldn't resist.
 
Last edited:

andel11

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 27, 2009
1,299
469
73
Bay Area, Ca
I need help and some advice. I wanted to know what is the difference, or if there is any between a 16340 battery and 123aCR battery. I have gone on some sites and they are listed together. Are they the same? I am looking for the 16340 battery to put in my mod but when I call and asked a battery store they said oh yeah its the CR 123. Now I am just really confused.
Is there a difference between
1. CR123 and 123aCR
2. CR123 and a 16340
3. 123acr and a 16340
Can you guys help me out with this one.:)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread