Thanks Kat!
... and there was the whole medical maryjane scam too, now there is only one approved supplier and it's impossible for anyone else to break into that market either.
The Electronic Cigarette Trade Association (Ecta)
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Thanks Kat!
... and there was the whole medical maryjane scam too, now there is only one approved supplier and it's impossible for anyone else to break into that market either.
Very well thought out and cohesive response. I do however have a problem with bold text. Those entities were never set up for looking after peoples health, they might mascarade as health agencies, but their agendas are politically and financially not health driven. Health unless it conforms within the lobbyist movement, is far down their lists of priorities.
And here I thought it was just the FDA scaring e-cigs up a tree. You can bet the tobacco companies have a lot to do with you Canadians not getting along with your customs, and for e-cigs to generally be shunned even by some smokers as "unhealthy"...
Politics? Of course. Canada is supplying emergent countries with asbestos while it is banned by 52 contries for health reasons. The governement seems to me like a business, I could be wrong, huh.
Did ECTA.:
- Identified who is pulling the strings at the top governement level?
- Tried to find allies to have real voices within the governement?
- At least tried to have an interview with Canadian Federation of Independent Business to see what kind of influence they have with the governement?
- Prepared their approach so the file is to be studied with HC and not against?
- Find or looked at a way to inform mass population about e-cig alternative without it being sponsored/promoted?
I don't know much about the board activities, I just hope it is going in the right direction.
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I am not here to tell you what to do. These are just my thoughts on it. I think all you need is professional full time lobbyists experts. If you keep looking for «.le laisser passer A38.», you'll never see the end of it.
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Future Possible Scenarios
I'm talking about the ban from HC. The raw material is coming from tobacco leaves. Groing almost every where. It will always be available in any ways.
Future possible scenarios
1. Nic-liquid vendors only require a licence or ISO type of document to be fully legit.
2. A nic-liquid law is enforced. But still easily available on the black market with doubtful quality control.
3. Pharma e-cig exclusivity (I can't see how that would happen, they lost control).
4. ECTA succeeded demonstrating that self-ruling this business is safer than letting it go black market.
You are now invited to post on your Future Possible Scenarios.
I'm talking about the ban from HC. The raw material is coming from tobacco leaves. Groing almost every where. It will always be available in any ways.
Future possible scenarios
1. Nic-liquid vendors only require a licence or ISO type of document to be fully legit.
2. A nic-liquid law is enforced. But still easily available on the black market with doubtful quality control.
3. Pharma e-cig exclusivity (I can't see how that would happen, they lost control).
4. ECTA succeeded demonstrating that self-ruling this business is safer than letting it go black market.
You are now invited to post on your Future Possible Scenarios.
I think 4 is the goal.
Actually the goal we are working towards is a bit more detailed.
So far our research is concentrating on what the law already says with regard to nic liquid, non nic liquid, kits, parts and general items. As we move forward, we are aiming for regulating the industry from within - first - then taking that regulation to the proper authorities and working with them to hammer out the details.
The laws already exist. They just haven't been recognized or applied.
Black market nic liquid - that will always be a problem - but in the future it won't be the industries problem and it won't be the constant burden that it is now.
Honestly - once regulations are fully in place and recognized, why would anyone want to offer or buy black market? Eliquid is pretty basic and not crazy expensive. DIY supplies are available. Black market products would either be redundant or something that is so lacking in basic controls that it shouldn't be on the market in the first place (just mho).
Due to recent developments -
Specific steps being taken by ECTA on behalf of vendors will not be announced publically.
We will try to keep you updated on major advances and will release information only after it is wise and prudent to do so.
Specific steps being taken by ECTA on behalf of vendors will not be announced publically.
We will try to keep you updated on major advances and will release information only after it is wise and prudent to do so.
ECTA Board,
I have to be honest... i hate to sound down or ignorant but i have questions... and I can't say that i really like the idea of this incredible level of secrecy, as a consumer looking at ECTA. Basically we've been repeatedly told for the last 8 months "...we can't talk about it..." whenever anyone ask any questions about first the lawsuit and then ECTA. There is literally no information at all about ECTA other than a vague mission statement at the beginning of this thread. We don't know who's involved, we don't know what they're doing, we don't know anything. I feel more in the dark from a consortium that I am supposed to be supporting than i do from HC (and they're bloody bad enough as it is) There is literally no information at all about ECTA to give me any reassurances that there's actually something happening... any more than there was any information to give us any reassurances that the lawsuit that was supposed to have happened last summer... we kept getting the same runaround, "we can't talk about it" until eventually we were told, months after it had been given up on, "yeah, that wasn't feasable, so we gave up on that"... I understand that there are some answers you can't give... but there's gotta be something you can tell us...
To make matters worse, we've lost JC and what is ECTA doing about it? from all external appearances, ECTA looks about as effective or capable as the original League of Nations... it sounded great at first and people had great expectations and hopes for it, but ultimately they ended up being a lame duck... They couldn't/didn't do a damned thing to regulate or control anything and the memberstates ultimately made a laughing stock of themselves...
Conversely, i look at ECITA, ECCA and CASAA and they're all talking a great deal more than ECTA is... and ECTA is supposed to be essentially just like ECITA. I'm sure there are some things that those organizations are not talking about, like Kat once said, one cannot be expected to give up the playbook to the opposition. That said... if the team never goes on the field, it doesn't matter if they have a great playbook... can't win, if they don't play.
I hate to be a grumbling ninny but it's getting frustrating when you keep hearing the same empty promises that action is "soon" to come, but "soon" never seems to materialize... Been waiting for someone, anyone, who has the skills to do something... i've repeatedly offered to assist and help and do whatever i can to support any group or organization that is working on making us legitimate. so i'm not just sitting back and complaining... i'm standing here saying i know i'm no expert here, but lets do something... talking in private little corners hasn't and isn't going to make a single bit of difference.
Jay
*i'll get off my soapbox now*
JayTheVapingGuy.... You asked some good questions and I'm sorry that you feel we've left you in the dark. I'll do my best to clarify what I can below....
Previous discussions on ECTA (since this last summer) were confidential because there was no ECTA yet. The vendors involved in those early discussions were still going over different legal avenues and possibilities and looking for a consensus. Publishing the confidential discussions between retailers and even lawyers is not just complicated - it's illegal (and morally wrong). I know the silence was frustrating - but can you think of another way?
ECTA is now a legally registered federal Trade Association with a Board - but that only happened at the very end of November of this year. So it's fairly new. We've had 2 official meetings since then and 2 working meetings. We've elected an interim board (which included Juicy Clear). Some changes will be made in the next couple weeks - dependant largely on what role Jimi wants to have in ECTA now - if any.
ECTA is following the exact same development and progress as ECITA did in the UK.
Regarding confidentiality - this is a cruicial point. As a Federally registered TA in Canada - ECTA is bound by a set of laws that we MUST follow. Failure to do so can result in our being sued or shut down. The information published to date (on this forum) conforms to those laws.
ECITA (UK) has been around for awhile and their initial goals are accomplished so they can publish a lot of information freely. Any goals they are working on behind the scenes right now though - will not be made public until they are accomplished. There is also proprietary and confidential info that can't be released - ever.
The statement made a couple days ago was a reaction to what happened with Juicy Clear. We were hoping to have much more info come out in the next couple months - but with the steps taken against Juicy Clear (an ECTA founder) I think we will need to wait until specific steps are accomplished before we make them public. This is not my decision alone though - it's a Board decision and will likely require some legal advice.
ECTA is not a secret society or anything. We're just a group of business people who are trying to take this industry out of it's current mess and into something more viable for the future. And it is in a mess.
Electronic Cigarettes - as a whole - were never released on the market the right way. There were too many short cuts and too many unaddressed issues right out of the gate. ECTA and ECITA have to address those issues now - identify and remove the short cuts. In Canada - we've had less than 2 months to work on this.
The only way to make it go faster at this point would be to put 10 to 15 million dollars forward - hire a team of researchers and administrators and a crack legal team and get it done in a couple months.
As for Juicy Clear - you have no idea what a heart breaking loss that is for the vendors and ECTA members. They are one of our founders and one of our board members. Once we accomplish our goals - I would love to see Jimi bring his company back - free of interference from HC. But this is up to him and not me or ECTA (though I would personally be willing to beg....).
There are people who would love to see ECTA fail and the industry crawl back under ground with retailers coming and going every couple months - with no stability in the product - with no compliance and no future. Everyone in ECTA stands against that - including our dear friend the founder of JC.
I share your frustration. Please share my optimism.
Previous discussions on ECTA (since this last summer) were confidential because there was no ECTA yet. The vendors involved in those early discussions were still going over different legal avenues and possibilities and looking for a consensus. Publishing the confidential discussions between retailers and even lawyers is not just complicated - it's illegal (and morally wrong). I know the silence was frustrating - but can you think of another way?
ECTA is now a legally registered federal Trade Association with a Board - but that only happened at the very end of November of this year. So it's fairly new. We've had 2 official meetings since then and 2 working meetings. We've elected an interim board (which included Juicy Clear). Some changes will be made in the next couple weeks - dependant largely on what role Jimi wants to have in ECTA now - if any.
ECTA is following the exact same development and progress as ECITA did in the UK.
Regarding confidentiality - this is a cruicial point. As a Federally registered TA in Canada - ECTA is bound by a set of laws that we MUST follow. Failure to do so can result in our being sued or shut down. The information published to date (on this forum) conforms to those laws.
ECITA (UK) has been around for awhile and their initial goals are accomplished so they can publish a lot of information freely. Any goals they are working on behind the scenes right now though - will not be made public until they are accomplished. There is also proprietary and confidential info that can't be released - ever.
The statement made a couple days ago was a reaction to what happened with Juicy Clear. We were hoping to have much more info come out in the next couple months - but with the steps taken against Juicy Clear (an ECTA founder) I think we will need to wait until specific steps are accomplished before we make them public. This is not my decision alone though - it's a Board decision and will likely require some legal advice.
ECTA is not a secret society or anything. We're just a group of business people who are trying to take this industry out of it's current mess and into something more viable for the future. And it is in a mess.
Electronic Cigarettes - as a whole - were never released on the market the right way. There were too many short cuts and too many unaddressed issues right out of the gate. ECTA and ECITA have to address those issues now - identify and remove the short cuts. In Canada - we've had less than 2 months to work on this.
The only way to make it go faster at this point would be to put 10 to 15 million dollars forward - hire a team of researchers and administrators and a crack legal team and get it done in a couple months.
As for Juicy Clear - you have no idea what a heart breaking loss that is for the vendors and ECTA members. They are one of our founders and one of our board members. Once we accomplish our goals - I would love to see Jimi bring his company back - free of interference from HC. But this is up to him and not me or ECTA (though I would personally be willing to beg....).
There are people who would love to see ECTA fail and the industry crawl back under ground with retailers coming and going every couple months - with no stability in the product - with no compliance and no future. Everyone in ECTA stands against that - including our dear friend the founder of JC.
I share your frustration. Please share my optimism.
Just going to deal with this separately from the way toooo long response above.
Appreciate the offer to help. At the moment we've hired a research team (the same one used by ECITA) to carry out the legal research and bring about compliance. It's a pretty specialized area of work and involves keeping files that are under the Information Protection Act.
There may be room in the future for volunteers - but not on legal and compliance issues. It's the very fact that we are working with legal issues that puts all this information into the category of "confidential".
There is a future to ECTA beyond getting through the legal structures. But this is right now the most important of all - so that we can have a future - and one that's healthy and good for the whole industry.
But every now and then, a dog still wants to be tossed a bone. We don't want the femur, just the tibia 
and that is the answer i've been looking for for so long... you've told me what is going on without breaking any interal rules and explained things...
I'm sorry that i had to push to get it, but i'm glad i did... this doesn't mean that i want to sit for months on end waiting in the dark but at least, for now we have an idea of what is going on...still vague but much clearer than 12 hours ago.
I'm sorry that i had to push to get it, but i'm glad i did... this doesn't mean that i want to sit for months on end waiting in the dark but at least, for now we have an idea of what is going on...still vague but much clearer than 12 hours ago.
Kat,
From what I'm reading ECTA is fairly well established, a board of directors, money being spent on research, lawyers, etc. This would also imply that funds are being contributed to the effort notably from the suppliers and vendors.
I do not have deep pockets but when I spend my money on supplies I would like to know which suppliers/vendors are contributing to ECTA. Knowing this will greatly influence my decisions when it comes to making my purchases and give me solace that I was helping in some small way.
Why haven't ECTA suppliers/vendors been given a means to identify themselves as contributors yet?
From what I'm reading ECTA is fairly well established, a board of directors, money being spent on research, lawyers, etc. This would also imply that funds are being contributed to the effort notably from the suppliers and vendors.
I do not have deep pockets but when I spend my money on supplies I would like to know which suppliers/vendors are contributing to ECTA. Knowing this will greatly influence my decisions when it comes to making my purchases and give me solace that I was helping in some small way.
Why haven't ECTA suppliers/vendors been given a means to identify themselves as contributors yet?
They aren't allowed to by law until certain goals have been accomplished. There appear to be some rather complicated laws involved in establishing a trade association, and some of those laws do not seem to be very conducive to transparency, at least in some cases not until certain conditions are met within the association.
Better yet,
do you have a projected timeframe for when you'll be able to identify who the board members are, what companies are contributers... etc...?? not asking for a firm date and time (ie. feb 22nd at 3pm) but rather a week or two week window that you currently expect it should be ready to go to the next phase.... that is something you can do without breaking confidentiality
Wow ... what a total load of BS that it. I hope you DO sue his pants off! xxxxxxxxx deserves what's coming to him.
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I'm with you on this, and would love to send my money where it will accomplish something other than filling someone's bank account.
Although i do understand why as an organisation, they cannot relase this info for the sole purpose of keeping the industry fair.
If they did, every respectable vaper out there would then only pledge all their purchases towards this group of 6 vendors only in an effort to further the cause, and the rest of the industry as a whole would then suffer because of it. All the other vendors ECTA is fighting so hard to help would end up shutting their doors due to poor numbers.
In a perfect world, every single canadian vendor would be pledging a % of their earnings towards ECTA. But we all know that greed is a powerful thing and that that will never happen.
So until ECTA has actually reached and accomplished their goals, i doubt they will release who is part of it.
Sure, now we all know Kat and JC were part of it, and one has shut his doors now, but are you really going to start sending Kat all your business? Knowing you might be undoing what little good ECTA might be trying to accomplish by doing so?
If you think about it, doing so would be counter productive to everything they stand for. ECTA is doing this for all the canadian vendors in the industry, including those not participating/helping/funding ECTA. If we choose to only support ECTA members, and that they accomplish their goals, we'll be left with nothing better than what BT is offering us right now.
Complete and total monopoly on the e-cig industry by these 6 vendors.
Sure their intentions might be good and feely-good for the 1st couple of months after succeeding, but the draw from the possible money that price hikes might bring will eventually be too much to swallow down for every single one of them, and greed will eventually take over. You'll see the prices jump to 2-3X what the equpiment costs now without competitors. You'll see them get into the same position BT is in right now. You'll see political interest invade the market. You'll see lawsuits and intimidation towards new suppliers. You'll see legislation pass favoring the original 6 ... etc etc etc.
No matter how secretive this all looks and sounds right now, i have hope that ECTA will stay legit and will do the right thing for us all. There is nothing for us to do other than trust what we all hope will be in our best interest.
Best of luck ECTA.
i absolutely disagree... why shouldn't those companies who commit to ECTA (and they're not restricting themselves to just the founding members) get preferential treatment... If i were to ever start an Ecig biz... the first people i'd be talking to is the ECTA board to see what i have to do to qualify as a member...
for me, i WILL, once the names are released, ONLY buy from ECTA Canadian vendors... if a canadian company can't be bothered to get behind a self governance organization that is focused on creating legitimate ecig business... then i can't be bothered to get behind them...
Is there potential for that to turn into a collaborative greedfest... sure... we see it all the time, and we also see that turned on themselves and fail and shut down... thats why there are usually 2 or 3 different "Standards" organizations for any given field... because a certain number feel that the other organization doesn't have the vision that they want to go in... its called professional competition... again...
i honestly do feel that creating an organization like ECTA is essential for the healthy growth of the industry... i am just frustrated at the general lack of knowledge... i understand it much better, but i am no less frustrated by it none the less...
so yeah, ECTA all the way unless they fall off the bandwagon, then i'll support whatever other standards organization serves the purposes and vision that i agree with.
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Once ECTA rolls out with an accomplished win over HC, then sure. I'm with you all the way. Until then ... buying strickly from them will only kill every other vendor out there. Once the so called "war on e-cigs" is over with HC and that ECTA has become the standardized norm for the canadian e-cig market, once suppliers are required to register with ECTA and follow said norms, then and only then will i only buy from those ECTA members.
By doing so as things stand right now, you will only kill whatever free market there is in Canada.
Potential you say? It's a certainty. Everyone has a price tag. Also, the only reason you are supporting these guys right now is because they are the ONLY organization doing anything about the obvious problem with the Canadian e-cig market right now. But with little or no involvement with the community, how are you to know what they are up to? What/Who's to say their intentions aren't to take over as the next BT and dominate the market?
I agree that this type of reform is necessary for e-cigs to be accepted in Canada. All i'm saying is that the potential for e-cigs, and specifically these 6 vendors, to replace and become the next BT is all too present and obvious if all the business goes straight to them right now, before standards do come out and the other guys even have a chance to conform to the new norms.
Let the plan roll out, give the others a chance to convert and abide by the new terms, then make your pick.
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