The Elephant in the Room

[Jman8]

It's unfortunate, IMHO, it's not illegal in all states. But my beef here has never been with the child. It has and will always be with the mother.

I'm still curious why it is unfortunate that it's not illegal in all states for a minor to use tobacco? Again, the original point on this tangent, and something I firmly stand behind, is it is because it is forbidden that children will seek out the black market. I find it to be a horrible law, and one that I am glad is exploited / circumvented. A parent / guardian / adult can still warn and/or educate a child in a jurisdiction where it is not illegal. But making it illegal really (and I mean really really) takes away that education and truly amounts to 'don't get caught.' Moreover, it allows ANTZ an inroad to do their own version of education leaving us adults who are battling ANTZ to address their junk science, while they get to pretend everyone is on their side when it comes to such matters. So, a kid wonders what's so wrong with this, no one bothers to tell them the truth (pros and cons) and they have to discover it on their own, in secret.

As long as there are immature adults who favor such a horrible policy, there is me (and likely some others) who favor that sort of law to be circumvented.

Doesn't help that some of the adults on this issue were child users themselves and thus appear an awful lot like they are coming from position of hypocrisy and/or ageism.

 

[wjosephsimmons]

In Arizona, it is indeed illegal for a minor (and even an adult under the age of 21) to drink alcohol.

If that were true, it would be illegal for a minor to consume alcohol in his or her home with parental consent. I refer to purchasing as opposed to consumption (and excluding 3.2% alcohol by weight beer). If there is in fact such a law as you suggest, please refer to it for our enlightenment!

Perhaps in many states. But in California, for example, it is most definitely illegal for a minor to smoke a cigarette and there's a $75 fine if one is caught doing so. So, your blanket statement has perhaps as much credibility. It's unfortunate, IMHO, it's not illegal in all states. But my beef here has never been with the child. It has and will always be with the mother.

Actually, according to this link, the number of states who prohibit the sale, possession and use of tobacco by minors is 42!

State Laws on Tobacco Control -- United States, 1998

So, armed with facts wjosephsimmons, it is you who should have looked up the laws before you questioned my credibility.

Certainly, if you want:

California Penal Code Section 308.(b) Illegal for anyone under 18 years old to purchase, receive, or possess any tobacco product. If convicted $75.00 fine or 30 hours community service.

In case you haven't noticed, I live in California myself, and regardless of what may be legislated, it is obviously not enforced. And your response is that I am obligated to fact check your posts? Please cite me one single case of this law being enforced on a minor smoking in his or her home with parental consent. "So, armed with facts" (whatever your name is), how does retroactively citing some obscure infraction increase your credibility? You're not establishing any credibility; you are simply being opinionated well past the point of being offensive. I stand by my original comment. You want to talk about "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" for letting them smoke a cigarette when there are parents out there literally pimping their children to child molesters for drug money. Please, don't waste any more of my time.

 

[beckdg]

The question that was asked is "Does a mother buying cigarettes for her underage son constitute a black market?" I'm pointing out that a mother buying cigarettes for her son is not a "market," and that therefore, this doesn't fit the definition of black market. Neither is it "traffic," so it doesn't fit the "illegal traffic or trade" definition either. I'm not sure why it matters whether that's a black market or not, because it wasn't my question, I'm just pointing out that the definitions don't fit. Do with that what you will.

So then if a military officer notices one nuclear war head isn't accounted for and decides (since he already has the means of communcation) to sell it to Al qaeda?

I don't know the details of many prior transactions. Though I do believe your definition may circumvent many prior prosecutions.

I highly doubt there's a world wide market place set up specifically for illegal nucs. Illegal children, maybe..

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[VapinWolf]

I'm still curious why it is unfortunate that it's not illegal in all states for a minor to use tobacco? Again, the original point on this tangent, and something I firmly stand behind, is it is because it is forbidden that children will seek out the black market. I find it to be a horrible law, and one that I am glad is exploited / circumvented. A parent / guardian / adult can still warn and/or educate a child in a jurisdiction where it is not illegal. But making it illegal really (and I mean really really) takes away that education and truly amounts to 'don't get caught.' Moreover, it allows ANTZ an inroad to do their own version of education leaving us adults who are battling ANTZ to address their junk science, while they get to pretend everyone is on their side when it comes to such matters. So, a kid wonders what's so wrong with this, no one bothers to tell them the truth (pros and cons) and they have to discover it on their own, in secret.

As long as there are immature adults who favor such a horrible policy, there is me (and likely some others) who favor that sort of law to be circumvented.

Doesn't help that some of the adults on this issue were child users themselves and thus appear an awful lot like they are coming from position of hypocrisy and/or ageism.

If I understood you correctly, you are assuming that because it is illegal that I, as a parent, just turn away from raising my children and hope law enforcement takes care of that for me? ?

That is very offensive and insulting to say the least.


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[beckdg]

If I understood you correctly, you are assuming that because it is illegal that I, as a parent, just turn away from raising my children and hope law enforcement takes care of that for me? ?

That is very offensive and insulting to say the least.


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No. Rather along the lines that absolute forbidding tends to mute the message and create an allure. The parent then becomes useless against the child's self destructive curiosity.

Like the road most of us have been down...

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[rbrylawski]

I'm still curious why it is unfortunate that it's not illegal in all states for a minor to use tobacco? Again, the original point on this tangent, and something I firmly stand behind, is it is because it is forbidden that children will seek out the black market. I find it to be a horrible law, and one that I am glad is exploited / circumvented. A parent / guardian / adult can still warn and/or educate a child in a jurisdiction where it is not illegal. But making it illegal really (and I mean really really) takes away that education and truly amounts to 'don't get caught.' Moreover, it allows ANTZ an inroad to do their own version of education leaving us adults who are battling ANTZ to address their junk science, while they get to pretend everyone is on their side when it comes to such matters. So, a kid wonders what's so wrong with this, no one bothers to tell them the truth (pros and cons) and they have to discover it on their own, in secret.

As long as there are immature adults who favor such a horrible policy, there is me (and likely some others) who favor that sort of law to be circumvented.

Doesn't help that some of the adults on this issue were child users themselves and thus appear an awful lot like they are coming from position of hypocrisy and/or ageism.

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. Are you honestly suggesting a good parent would say, because something is law, they no longer have the responsibility to be responsible parents?


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[beckdg]

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree more. Are you honestly suggesting a good parent would say, because something is law, they no longer have the responsibility to be responsible parents?


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No matter how many times you say it, if they refuse to hear it you've told them nothing. Because it's law, though, they will hear, by default, " don't get caught".

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[TomGeorge]

Of course we are. We are all part of a social contract that requires us to give up our right to absolute freedom. In our country, this means that the government can deprive us of our liberty and property, assuming that we are given due process of law. I don't know if society can really function without this kind of government power. I don't disagree that there are times when the system isn't perfect, but I don't know if that makes it a bad way to live. As long as we have a well functioning government, these situations will be an anomaly.

A well functioning government is not what we have. We have government agencies with not elected officials in them, deciding with junk science what is good for us and what isnt, while getting at lease half of it wrong. And that is just one example.

Dont get me wrong, I love where I live, I understand that most places in the world dont have it as good as we do, but this country has turned into something that it was never meant to be and it is not well functioning. I am not just talking about the Dictator in Chief for the past 6 years either, it has been changing and sliding down a slippery slope for a long time. Some have tried to slow us down, but others are trying to speed it up...

 

[beckdg]

A well functioning government is not what we have. We have government agencies with not elected officials in them, deciding with junk science what is good for us and what isnt, while getting at lease half of it wrong. And that is just one example.

Dont get me wrong, I love where I live, I understand that most places in the world dont have it as good as we do, but this country has turned into something that it was never meant to be and it is not well functioning. I am not just talking about the Dictator in Chief for the past 6 years either, it has been changing and sliding down a slippery slope for a long time. Some have tried to slow us down, but others are trying to speed it up...

Tell me about it. Patriot act synopsis:

In the event we suspect you're capable of or likely to be a meany head we retain the right to strip you of all of your rights and possessions and treat you as an adult and a terrorist. We'll be monitoring all your communications and watching from every camera we can muster up regardless of budget and deficit. To destroy your life all we need is reasonable suspicion.

And within a couple weeks of it passing there was an awkward 16 yr old boy set to go to trial as an adult for terrorism. He made idol threats on Facebook to kids who'd been physically abusing him for years.

What a system...

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[rbrylawski]

If that were true, it would be illegal for a minor to consume alcohol in his or her home with parental consent. I refer to purchasing as opposed to consumption (and excluding 3.2% alcohol by weight beer). If there is in fact such a law as you suggest, please refer to it for our enlightenment!





Certainly, if you want:


In case you haven't noticed, I live in California myself, and regardless of what may be legislated, it is obviously not enforced. And your response is that I am obligated to fact check your posts? Please cite me one single case of this law being enforced on a minor smoking in his or her home with parental consent. "So, armed with facts" (whatever your name is), how does retroactively citing some obscure infraction increase your credibility? You're not establishing any credibility; you are simply being opinionated well past the point of being offensive. I stand by my original comment. You want to talk about "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" for letting them smoke a cigarette when there are parents out there literally pimping their children to child molesters for drug money. Please, don't waste any more of my time.

Maybe you should have fact checked your post. You said it's not illegal for minors to smoke or drink. You were wrong. Whether it's enforced or not doesn't make it less illegal. Referencing some Obscure infraction? Puhleeze. Law is law.

But we can agree on one thing by not wasting any more time with each other.

Cheers


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[Plastic Shaman]

A well functioning government is not what we have. We have government agencies with not elected officials in them, deciding with junk science what is good for us and what isnt, while getting at lease half of it wrong. And that is just one example.

Dont get me wrong, I love where I live, I understand that most places in the world dont have it as good as we do, but this country has turned into something that it was never meant to be and it is not well functioning. I am not just talking about the Dictator in Chief for the past 6 years either, it has been changing and sliding down a slippery slope for a long time. Some have tried to slow us down, but others are trying to speed it up...

Well, I know that a lot of people have issues with agencies, but they are vital to our system and it would be absurd to try to elect all the people running them.

I'm not saying things are great. Our country is on the decline. I don't doubt that. However, my point was that we are not at the point where people are being severely punished for minor or obscure offenses on a regular basis. I'm saying that this system is currently stable in the sense that our government, at every level, hasn't become completely corrupted. We don't run kangaroo courts and we don't take people out back to make them disappear. So, we have some sort stability.

 

[3mg Meniere]

However, my point was that we are not at the point where people are being severely punished for minor or obscure offenses on a regular basis.

But the death of Eric Garner was so egregious that your "on a regular basis" fades into insignificance.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

No. Rather along the lines that absolute forbidding tends to mute the message and create an allure. The parent then becomes useless against the child's self destructive curiosity.

Like the road most of us have been down...

Sent from my device.

By this logic, the most effective thing to do to reduce teenage drug and alcohol use would be to make it all legal. Then it would have less allure and kids would take their parents seriously when they told them not to do it. Do you really think that this is sound?

 

[Plastic Shaman]

But the death of Eric Garner was so egregious that your "on a regular basis" fades into insignificance.

Eric Garner did not die while on trial for some strange offense or punished by a court in a way that would offend common sense.

Eric Garner was murdered. It had nothing to do with how our government runs other than the lack of accountability for law enforcement. This is obviously an issue, but it isn't the type of degenerated society I'm talking about.

 

[beckdg]

Well, I know that a lot of people have issues with agencies, but they are vital to our system and it would be absurd to try to elect all the people running them.

I'm not saying things are great. Our country is on the decline. I don't doubt that. However, my point was that we are not at the point where people are being severely punished for minor or obscure offenses on a regular basis. I'm saying that this system is currently stable in the sense that our government, at every level, hasn't become completely corrupted. We don't run kangaroo courts and we don't take people out back to make them disappear. So, we have some sort stability.

Reginald deny
"Can't we all just get along?"
What was the guys name?..

And the cops that just got away with killing that young boy?

America's new slogan to attract tourism... "we won't execute you for doing 45mph in the left lane... probably."

Methinks your standards are too low for "the greatest nation".

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[3mg Meniere]

it isn't the type of degenerated society I'm talking about.

So long as police culture in some areas regards itself as being above the law, I stand by my words. So long as many civilians regard police as abusive people out to abuse others, I stand by my words. So long as the United States incarcerates a higher percentage of its population than any other first world nation, I stand by my words.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

So long as police culture in some areas regards itself as being above the law, I stand by my words. So long as many civilians regard police as abusive people out to abuse others, I stand by my words. So long as the United States incarcerates a higher percentage of its population than any other first world nation, I stand by my words.

So, you think it's worse than living in East Berlin or North Korea? We have some huge systematic problems, but people still have their right to trials and due process as well as many other essential liberties.

 

[stevegmu]

I just never find myself in those situations, but I don't do anything to have any interaction with police, don't rob convenience stores nor try to take a cop's gun, don't point a toy gun at people and should I ever be questioned by police would be polite and cooperate. Odd how I live in a different world than the criminals...

 

[3mg Meniere]

So, you think it's worse than living in East Berlin or North Korea? We have some huge systematic problems, but people still have their right to trials and due process as well as many other essential liberties.

East Berlin no longer exists. We must resolve those huge systemic problems, while combating worse problems elsewhere. And quit diverting attention to other nations' problems in the interest of shutting down concern about our own. Guantanamo Bay, anyone? A brave strike towards honest self-criticism. I could go on and on..... but.....

 

[Wild Card]

So much fail in this thread. It's like a train wreck that you just can't look away from.