The Elephant in the Room

[sub4me]

This is the reason regulations and control are needed. We need to know that when we walk into a shop and buy E liquid that there is some level of checks and balances. That responsible ingredients are being used and that newest flavor you bought isn't some sub standard liquid that could cause harm far worse then you ever considered.

Say a brand is GRAS at a certain level but at a level far above that its considered dangerous, however at the current state of affairs a vendor can add any level of this chemical they want, perhaps to boost their flavor and sales, the reason doesn't matter, but what does matter is safety and right now there's no safety standards.

 

[ScottP]

Never mind that E liquid for now. What's also important is legitimate companies selling you liquid with dangerous chemicals in it. They may not even know some of the chemicals used in their own flavors and may not care and may make no effort to find out. They don't have to care cause there's no regulations, no safety standards, nothing prohibiting high levels of unsafe chemicals being added for flavor. Its not hard to see how this can be a big problem.

SB got called on it and I'm willing to bet theres plenty of others that may be far worse.

Killing your customers only works if they do it really slowly...ala Big tobacco. High concentrations of dangerous chemicals doesn't fit the bill.

 

[PapaSloth]

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that only Big Tobacco and Big Pharma should be allowed to produce safe eliquids, because their record of producing safe products for consumers has been so stellar under the watchful eyes and careful guidance of the FDA. Problem solved!

 

[PapaSloth]

Really, if you can't trust Phillip Morris to produce a safe product, then who can you trust?

 

[Lessifer]

Never mind that E liquid for now. What's also important is legitimate companies selling you liquid with dangerous chemicals in it. They may not even know some of the chemicals used in their own flavors and may not care and may make no effort to find out. They don't have to care cause there's no regulations, no safety standards, nothing prohibiting high levels of unsafe chemicals being added for flavor. Its not hard to see how this can be a big problem.

SB got called on it and I'm willing to bet theres plenty of others that may be far worse.

Has it been established what a safe concentration of diacetyl in e-liquid is? I'm not saying that if people ask "Does this liquid contain diacetyl?" that the vendor shouldn't answer to the best of their knowledge. We know it's bad, at really high levels, as in I work in a flavoring plant and forgot to wear a mask for a year level. Do we know that at <1% of an aerosolized liquid that it poses health risks? I'm honestly asking here. I haven't looked into it too much. What are safe exposure levels?

 

[FlamingoTutu]

Really, if you can't trust Phillip Morris to produce a safe product, then who can you trust?

Me, myself and I for starters. There are some pretty picky people on this forum and they find vendors they trust. I know I trust the flavors I use, don't buy much commercially.

 

[DaveOno]

Minors and vaping.

A certain number of kids are going to start smoking. I can assume a certain number of kids will start vaping, having never smoked. Just as there are adults starting to vape, having never smoked. And some smoking kids will stop smoking and pick up vaping.

I started vaping for one reason only. To quit smoking. The original plan was to vape, reducing the nic level gradually, then stop vaping. But what is this? I found that I really enjoy it.

But I'll imagine I'm a kid again, 15yr old and non smoker. Would I start vaping? Probably. I can't say I wouldn't try it.

So, Minors and vaping. Until more science and research is done, I would have to discourage kids from starting to vape. Even with zero nicotine, I think there is a possibility of a health risk of vaping pg and/or vg. And I think vaping is going to save thousands of lives!

If they are already smokers, then I'm OK with them vaping to quit smoking. Risk reduction and control of an addiction.

I'm OK with parents buying it for their children, but minors shouldn't be allowed to buy it. And this is regardless of nicotine.

Hey, minors shouldn't drive without licenses, smoke, drink, carry weapons and lots of other things. But some do anyway.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

Has it been established what a safe concentration of diacetyl in e-liquid is? I'm not saying that if people ask "Does this liquid contain diacetyl?" that the vendor shouldn't answer to the best of their knowledge. We know it's bad, at really high levels, as in I work in a flavoring plant and forgot to wear a mask for a year level. Do we know that at <1% of an aerosolized liquid that it poses health risks? I'm honestly asking here. I haven't looked into it too much. What are safe exposure levels?

There are standards, I've looked at the link but I don't remember what it was. Pretty sure it was in the media section and that someone here can point you in the right direction.

 

[PapaSloth]

There are standards, I've looked at the link but I don't remember what it was. Pretty sure it was in the media section and that someone here can point you in the right direction.

It's tiny, tiny. Here's an abstract from A Proposal for a Safe Exposure Level to Diaceytl:

Diacetyl is a naturally occurring compound that has been used in concentrated form as a food additive, particularly in butter flavorings. Inhalation of diacetyl and butter flavoring fumes has caused a variety of respiratory diseases in workers and consumers including bronchiolitis obliterans (BO), a relatively rare, severe, and irreversible lung disease. A safe level of exposure to diacetyl has not been established. We review the literature on diacetyl and flavoring toxicity and critique a recent proposal for an occupational exposure limit (OEL) of 0.2 ppm for diacetyl. We present unpublished data and novel analyses in support of our proposal for a safe level of exposure. Our findings indicate that a safe level of exposure exists around or below a time-weighted average of 1 ppb for an eight-hour workday. The levels of exposure we found to be unsafe include ranges that popcorn consumers may potentially be exposed to, indicating a risk of severe lung disease (including BO) for some consumers.

That's 1 part per billion over an eight-hour workday they're recommending. Almost certainly more than you'd get by vaping any eLiquid that contains any measurable amount of diacetyl.

 

[FlamingoTutu]

It's tiny, tiny. Here's an abstract from A Proposal for a Safe Exposure Level to Diaceytl:

That's 1 part per billion over an eight-hour workday they're recommending. Almost certainly more than you'd get by vaping any eLiquid that contains any measurable amount of diacetyl.

Thank you, Sloth.

 

[Lessifer]

It's tiny, tiny. Here's an abstract from A Proposal for a Safe Exposure Level to Diaceytl:

That's 1 part per billion over an eight-hour workday they're recommending. Almost certainly more than you'd get by vaping any eLiquid that contains any measurable amount of diacetyl.

Thanks, I found the earlier one that said:
For Diacetyl, a recommended exposure limit (REL) of 5 parts per billion (ppb) as an eight-hour, time-weighted average, (TWA) during a 40-hour work week. To further protect against effects of short-term exposures, NIOSH recommends in the draft document a short-term exposure limit (STEL) for diacetyl of 25 ppb for a 15-minute time period.

The problem is, how do you translate that into e-liquid exposure? How much is in "butter" flavor? Then how much is actually in what gets vaporized? I mean, the easy answer is to avoid it altogether, though that seems to be easier said than done since it happens to be in a lot of flavoring that you wouldn't expect it to be in.

 

[sub4me]

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that only Big Tobacco and Big Pharma should be allowed to produce safe eliquids, because their record of producing safe products for consumers has been so stellar under the watchful eyes and careful guidance of the FDA. Problem solved!

That conclusion has no basis here and was never suggested. Of course I realize your being sarcastic but to ignore the fact that E liquids have no set standards is like sticking your head in the sand. Like it or not regulations and standards are needed. A safety standard will give vaping some legitimacy. Since at the present no disclosure is required none of us can be sure of the levels of anything in these liquids no matter your imagined level of trust with any vendor.

 

[PapaSloth]

It's less than you think. Almost certainly less than you can taste. If you vape 3ml per day, 5pbb is 0.000000015ml. By comparison, a drop is around 0.05ml.

 

[sub4me]

But that's only one chemical, which by the way is being absorbed into the lungs, which also has no long term data to support any vaping levels, not to mention other chemicals that we may not even beaware of yet or their effects when being vaped.

 

[Racehorse]

The amount of the proposed paperwork will put most companies out of business

Just wanted to note that it has occured to me that what will put many vendors out of biz is the walmart principle, and I've already seen that happening, as consumers look for lowest prices, and are getting them, from places like Focalecigand Fasttech......ever seen the size of those topics here?

Consumers seem to care only about price, not loyalty to american vendors........and that is exactly how Walmart swallowed up the competition and all the mom n' pops.

And this is what I've seen happening here too

I daresay vaping enthusiasts aren't sending all their money to Big Tobacco companies, but instead to the ones I mentioned.

 

[beckdg]

I dare say that there are lots of US based small businesses doing just fine in the industry regardless.

And that focal ecig and fasttech will blow up even more so overnight when the industry is handed over.

I see successful troll is no less successful.

Food for thought. Every year sams club sends me several warnings to discard some food I bought from there due to contamination found when someone ate a package from the same run as one I bought and wound up in the hospital. I suspect the contamination events that don't land someone in the hospital often go unnoticed.

The other industry that's heavily regulated by the fda.

Regulating an industry doesn't put an inspector over the shoulder of every would be bottler and ingredient hopper. Thinking it's going to stop contamination is a fallacy at best.

Sent from my device.

 

[VNeil]

I don't understand the argument by some that FDA regulation will give consumers knowledge of what is in their eLiquids. If the labeling is anything like foods, a typical eLiquid label will look like this:

Ingredients
Vegetable Glycerine
Propylene Glycol
Nicotine
Flavorings

Very, very few foods disclose the "flavorings" included. That is considered "proprietary". What problem mentioned here would that solve?

People that are concerned about the flavorings in their juices are now free to DIY their own (as I do now). Markets vote with their money and their feet. If people want better labels they can demand and only buy appropriately labeled and disclosed eLiquids. Just like they can with food. FDA regulation is no panacea for life's problems. it doesn;t work at all with food, and it would not work with eLiquid. What regulation would do is severely limit the choices we have now of thousands of eLiquids.

As far as Diaceytl is concerned, or any other additive found to be controversial or potentially harmful, the industry has generally self policed this. Many eLiquid vendors and even raw flavor additive vendors, now disclose any that contain Diaceytl. Consumers are welcome to limit their purchases to those vendors that do disclose this data. That is how the world is supposed to work. And how it worked, for the most part, in the 70s when I grew up. Nanny states are not really necessary, they just exist to benefit certain monied interests.,

 

[beckdg]

If the labeling is anything like foods, a typical eLiquid label will look like this:

Ingredients
Vegetable Glycerine
Propylene Glycol
Nicotine
Natural and artificial flavors

Precisely what I've tried to point out to no avail. THANK YOU!

Addit; not to mention you can go to the baking Isle of your local grocery mart to inspect what's on the labels of the flavors. This I suspect is as far as your going to get information wise on an fda mandated label for a long time coming.

Sent from my device.

 

[WillyZee]

Nice post VNeil


Sent via iPhone

 

[TomGeorge]

This is the reason regulations and control are needed. We need to know that when we walk into a shop and buy E liquid that there is some level of checks and balances. That responsible ingredients are being used and that newest flavor you bought isn't some sub standard liquid that could cause harm far worse then you ever considered.

Say a brand is GRAS at a certain level but at a level far above that its considered dangerous, however at the current state of affairs a vendor can add any level of this chemical they want, perhaps to boost their flavor and sales, the reason doesn't matter, but what does matter is safety and right now there's no safety standards.

How would you want this regulation to be set up? Would there be an FDA official at every vape shop watching the eliquid be made? or would all juice have to come from a factory of mass produced eliguid so everything is sealed? Or would it just be the FDA watching and inventorying everything the vape shop bought?

I understand your concern but I dont see a feasible way for it to be enforced. If they just write a standard list of what can be used and in what proportions, what is going to stop people from making juice they way that they already do?

I am not trying to be snarky, I am curious what your plan would be