The end of microcoils?

[alicewonderland]

some part of me thinks this is overexagerated, but another part of me sees this as real. I know when I first started using Nichrome wire, i tried to dry burn it til red so I could squish the coils together after putting them on my RDA, but then I started getting this disgusting metallic taste that made me cough everytime I tried to vape it, I looked inside and the coil looked fine, so i figured it was the wick i burnt so i took out the wick, dryburnt it a bit and rewicked it, the same taste persisted even after rewicking. I believe dryburning it did mess with the molecular structure and cause the coil to be unstable. I used to vape nichrome coils in rogue attys which dont have heat fins or much airflow thus = high buildup of heat, and I would get those nasty dryburnt metallic tastes in there as well, so I change the coils. Then I started running nichrome in RDA's with better airflow, stopped dryburning, and now I never get those metallic tastes im guessing due to the increased airflow keeping the coils cooler and not dryburning my coils anymore.

We used to experience this kind of taste as well with old atomizers that looked like cartomizers that had no wicking, just wire. So what he is saying really does make sense. Just make sure if you guys run nichrome wire, dont dryburn so much and make sure you have efficient airflow for the resistances you aim for. This is a cause for concern as it looks subohming is getting popular, which creates even more heat, and nichrome wire is more frail than kanthal and is getting popular as well with vapors buying these brandnamed wire which are nichrome wire for subohming - perfect environment for what the Dr. is mentioning, super high heat - make sure you have enough airflow or dont build so low as to keep your coils within operating temperature.

^- remember these? remember the dryburnt metallic funky tasting hits we got with this? Ever wonder why it tasted metallic?

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Ultrasonic transducer vaping.
Might shatter your teeth, but what the heck a great vape.

 

[Steamer861]

You don't see why this is such a Big Deal?

I think it is a Big Deal for Anyone to come out with this Kind of Statement without any Supporting Documentation.

I have a lot of Respect for Dr. F. But to say something Like this seems Very Out of Character for someone who has Lambasted Study after Study and Article after Article as being without Proof.

Lets see the Data and Figure Out what he is Talking About.

You say you have respect for Dr F
But it looks to me like you only have respect for him when he is saying something you want to hear.
He's telling you that torching and dry burring is Bad Just adjust your coiling style and don't do it.Or not.
Dr F has bin a proponent of vaping since the beginning now were going to throw him under the bus cause we want to torch and dry burn?

 

[Robert Cromwell]

You say you have respect for Dr F
But it looks to me like you only have respect for him when he is saying something you want to hear.
He's telling you that torching and dry burring is Bad Just adjust your coiling style and don't do it.Or not.
Dr F has bin a proponent of vaping since the beginning now were going to throw him under the bus cause we want to torch and dry burn?

A common failure in logic among humans. We tend to support anything that supports us and diss anything that disagrees with us.
The TRUTH does not always support what we want it to support.

The truth is probably that vaping is not totally safe, safer than smoking tobacco, sure, but not totally safe.
And the safety factor CAN be improved if we are just open minded enough to see that.

to me vaping is a safter alternative to smoking, not a competition sport or a who has the shiniest most powerful toys thing.
I do enjoy vaping, but understand that is not without it's own risks.

 

[AntC]

I started a thread on this topic, in "wicks and wires", (silly me) and have gotten no answers. I was asking about dry burning Ni200, but this ALL is very informative. I really don't know what to make if it, but at the very least I really don't think it can be nearly as bad as 7-8thousand chemicals in one cigarette.
Thank you VERY much everybody, especially those with real information on this subject. I've always focused on juice and wick, never considered the wire. Figured the juice kept it cool enough but the building/dry burn process is what I question now.
Also, thanks in advance for anybody else that contributes info to this thread/topic.

 

[TheBloke]

Dr F has bin a proponent of vaping since the beginning now were going to throw him under the bus cause we want to torch and dry burn?

I don't think anyone is throwing anyone under a bus.

Rather people have rightly said that a statement of this importance (basically: everyone in the vaping world is doing something dangerously wrong) must be backed up by evidence.

I have no prior knowledge of Dr F. I can see from this thread that he's well regarded and respected, and I therefore believe he has every good intention. But currently I feel he has made a major mistake. Not in the content of his message - I have no idea if that's right or wrong - but in his delivering it with no data to back it up.

It's somewhat akin to shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre. Now maybe he has seen the flames and the smoke and is absolutely correct that there is a fire. But the contributions of experts in this thread suggest that that is at the very least in doubt. It is vital that he backs up these significant claims with clear data and evidence, backed by experts in this field (of which he is not one.)

I say again I believe fully that he is acting in the very best of intentions, and I am not saying what he said was factually incorrect. But I don't see how anyone could argue that it was well delivered; we need evidence, and this thread is proof of why.

Not least because the last thing the vaping world needs right now is more unsubstantiated claims of great danger that could be used against us by those whose intentions are not at all good.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Many of us seem to eagerly accept statements made in support of vaping with no supporting evidence.
Me? I am somewhere in the middle, not a real comfortable place to be sometimes but where I am anyway.

 

[zoiDman]

You say you have respect for Dr F
But it looks to me like you only have respect for him when he is saying something you want to hear.
He's telling you that torching and dry burring is Bad Just adjust your coiling style and don't do it.Or not.
Dr F has bin a proponent of vaping since the beginning now were going to throw him under the bus cause we want to torch and dry burn?

I have Respect for him because he Backs Up with Scientific Data what he claims is True. Whereas his Counter Parts seem to just Shoot from the Hip.

And that is why I was Very Surprised to Hear Dr. F say what he said with No Supporting Documentation.

Nobody is throwing him Under a Bus. Don't Hype this anymore than it is Already.

 

[alicewonderland]

I started a thread on this topic, in "wicks and wires", (silly me) and have gotten no answers. I was asking about dry burning Ni200, but this ALL is very informative. I really don't know what to make if it, but at the very least I really don't think it can be nearly as bad as 7-8thousand chemicals in one cigarette.
Thank you VERY much everybody, especially those with real information on this subject. I've always focused on juice and wick, never considered the wire. Figured the juice kept it cool enough but the building/dry burn process is what I question now.
Also, thanks in advance for anybody else that contributes info to this thread/topic.

not sure if you ever experienced it, but when i vaped in that nasty taste it made me gag and choke and cough so hard, similar to when I first tried to smoke a cigarette, and we all know just because people gag and cough at first tryign to smoke a cigarette, it isn't enough to deter them from it. Just personal experience because I've tasted it myself, and if there is a way to prevent that metallic taste that's bad for our health and keep vaping, why not do it? If there was a way back when i first started smoking, to still smoke without breathing in the toxins, I would do that too.

Maybe most of vapers dont vape at high enough temperatures to have ever experienced what I have, but I have experienced it, and not in some crazy 0.1 coil builds. I tasted the disgusting taste that can only be described as metallic, and knowing that inhaling metals is hazardous to my health, am trying to do everything to prevent it. Maybe others havent experienced this taste and find no need to be wary of it, but im here telling you its possible and its there. Im sure there are others that have experienced this as well. Many veterans out there used to vape the old 510 attys before RDA's came out and also complained about that disgusting metallic taste that was caused when the wire mesh was overheated.

 

[TaketheRedPill]

The amount of titanium dioxide release would be trivial if any, and titanium dioxide is not classified as harmful.
Titanium dioxide is the pigment used in just about everything to colour it white, ie toothpaste.
inhalation of large amounts fine pigment powder would irritate the lungs.
Titanium metal is used for implants in the body.

Titanium dioxide has been studied and from what I'm gleaning from the linked article here that references several of those studies, natural organic make-up - Titanium Dioxide: Toxic or Safe? , is, that if you're a rat, you might have issues, but if you're a mouse, you're ok? To be honest most of this is wayyyyyy over my paygrade.

 

[ReigntheGamer]

 

[Rossum]

With all due respect to Dr. Farsalinos, please show us some data. Show us the difference in the quantity of metals (or metallic compounds) in the vapor produced by coils that have and haven't been "dry burned". Do this for all the common coil materials including Kanthal, nichrome, nickel, titanium, and stainless steel. This should not be a particularly difficult or expensive study to do. I'm prepared to help fund such a study, just as I was last summer when this subject came up before.

 

[jambi]

You say you have respect for Dr F
But it looks to me like you only have respect for him when he is saying something you want to hear.
He's telling you that torching and dry burring is Bad Just adjust your coiling style and don't do it.Or not.
Dr F has bin a proponent of vaping since the beginning now were going to throw him under the bus cause we want to torch and dry burn?

There's a difference between being skeptical and "throwing him under the bus". I'll not follow anyone simply on the merits of their "past achievements". Wars have been started that way. Just as bad to unquestioningly follow as to only believe what you want to hear.

I'd like to see more detailed analysis from the metallurgist's perspective. Perhaps some microscope photos with a layman's explanation of what's happening and what's to be concerned about.

Till then...

 

[Katya]

You say you have respect for Dr F
But it looks to me like you only have respect for him when he is saying something you want to hear.
He's telling you that torching and dry burring is Bad Just adjust your coiling style and don't do it.Or not.
Dr F has bin a proponent of vaping since the beginning now were going to throw him under the bus cause we want to torch and dry burn?

Can't speak for Z, but I don't think anybody is throwing the good Dr. under the bus--we just want to see some science behind his statements. We didn't like the news about diacetyl either, but we accepted it because he actually conducted a study. Some of us questioned his recommendations, but nobody questioned his findings. The diacetyl was there.

This is different--we just have a "don't do it," but we don't understand why. As I posted earlier in the thread, Dr. Farsalinos was all ready to do a study on wires but, AFAIK, he never got to it.

 

[Katya]

Titanium dioxide has been studied and from what I'm gleaning from the linked article here that references several of those studies, natural organic make-up - Titanium Dioxide: Toxic or Safe? , is, that if you're a rat, you might have issues, but if you're a mouse, you're ok? To be honest most of this is wayyyyyy over my paygrade.

Has it been studied for inhalation? I don't know. Applying something to the skin, or eating it, is very different from inhaling. Diacetyl is harmless when ingested.

 

[Magaro]

Me too. Dr. F is an ECF member and has posted here before. I hope he becomes aware of this thread and elaborates on what he's said. He's not the type to say something without a solid reason.

TOTALLY missed this post. I would LOVE to see some clarification of his comments from the man himself. Statements as "cautionary" as the ones he made absolutely require supporting evidence to back them up. Or else they're just opinion, not science.

 

[etherealink]

BUT as a (former) metallurgist I do know about metals and I have to say that all what was said about metals is not worth any attention. It was all wrong. It was even said "you are basically destroying the bonds between the metal molecules", which is just funny for a metallurgist: metals do not have molecules and heating does not destroy bonds.

Quote edited for content...

Basically, destroying the bonds of the metal at the molecular level goes against the basics of grade school earth science and would also destroy the metal itself. Let's face it guys, the bonds between molecules aren't magic they hold the metal together. If they are broken the metal changes into another substance ie: a *physical* reaction, just like turning wood into ash by burning it. That isn't what happens when we heat a coil, it wouldn't be much good for very long if it worked that way.

All electrical things that heat up would pretty much have to be thrown out if this is all to be believed; furnaces, electric stoves, curling irons etc. I'll pass.

The metal itself "may" be degrading on a molecular level, but it's a very small amount that is happening very slowly.

Is anything that is coming off the metal as its heated and we suck in the vapor that *may* contain particles of kanthal? Maybe. Is it harmful, who knows yet.

Lets save the end of the world supposition doc, compliments on the rest of the work you have done but this is just quack talk. When you have something to back it up, I'll be waiting,

:2c

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Too much iron in your blood will cause you to become magnetized and wake up every morning pointing north.

 

[Libbydude]

I personally am relieved that the worst thing about vaping happens when I'm dry burning my coils.

 

[alicewonderland]

All electrical things that heat up would pretty much have to be thrown out if this is all to be believed; furnaces, electric stoves, curling irons etc. I'll pass.

well, you can melt things fast or you can melt things slow. the process of it degrading doesnt instantly cause it to break the circuit as soon as it starts to melt, it will still create a circuit as long as it is still once piece and allows the movement of electrons (current) through it. If you burn something and break it down, the composition changes and some of the molecules are released in gaseous form. It is certainly possible to melt wire by overheating it, and even more possible to melt nichrome wire since it has a lower temp rating than kanthal. whether it be melting it instantly by dry burning, or slowly by pulsing/vaping it, it is still melting/degrading over time.

Try dryburning a nichrome coil at 0.2-0.3ohms on a mech mod, it will literally melt and break and give you a shortcircuit, itll melt almost instantly when it turns red if you hold down the fire button, or if you pulse it, it will melt over time. Running a <0.3ohm nichrome coil at 3.7-4.2volts or 50-150watts is not far off from what some people like to vape either. So I'd say his finds have 'some' type of merit to them, although no detailed findings.