The end of microcoils?

[Magaro]

Straightforward answer, to the best of my un


Outstanding observation @Magaro, as I've alluded to in various posts. Working with jenny's and inadequately or excessively torch oxidized open Kanthal winds I experienced conspicuous spatter of accretion, surface layer and even raw wire. This too from close contact and open winds which were torch annealed. We don't want the preferential deposition of any underlying metal just alumina. And to answer your question before, based on my understanding on grain development and deposition soot from torching can be a deterrent to uniform alumina formation. Torching cannot and as you suggest may predispose Kanthal's peculiar chemistry to degradation. I also would agree that once you have that stable A2O3 base in place it is very durable. So the goal we chase in practical terms is uniformity, consistency.

I'm coming from an industrial purchasing management and hands on consultant in various technologies. Not a metallurgist or engineer. Have been seriously studying the science behind vaporization and its application among vapers for several years now. This is my takeaway after observing their methodologies and rigorously testing the premises of operation across near 2thou builds now and many more I've observed by others.

I advocate generating tensioned winds to achieve strain balanced symmetry and closest wire-to-wire proximity. There is a state of wire, a point of strain, which provides an ideal condition for pulsed oxidation. And my findings indicate that the induced strain is adequate to promote rapid A2O3 generation within a few low voltage pulses. Such that a substantial amount of residual rigidity continues to conserve the geometry essential to a micro's thermal efficiency conserved by the precise alumina layers the very proximity predicated. A synergistic approach. Some gaps develop of course but these interstitial spaces are extremely minute gas pressure exit paths which are beneficial to vapor output. Such coils have retained their shape far beyond the durability of the alumina layers themselves in practice and remain markedly stable for temperature. So a very consistent result M...

The technique I employ has been used by industry for generations and is simple for even those with no mechanical experience to learn for a simple common single wire tensioned contact coil creating a fundamentally sound balanced electrical circuit in seconds. My numerous comparisons of both methodologies of torching and pulsing led to a preference for electrical pulsing as soot deposits not only inhibit alumina formation but frankly, lets face it, it's fiddly. And I try diligently, as many would attest, to see new vapers get to at is directly as possible with the use of the most commonly available tools and means. At the moment, I see no more effective alternative on the horizon for a uniform vape.

Could use some help and support here.

Mind you M, I wind all kinds of stuff and my own preferences don't play a part in my above. You got a plan, I'm game.

Thanks for your remarks.

Good luck all.

Off topic:

Very interesting post you've made that I missed earlier in this rapidly-evolving thread. coils, or heating elements more generically, are a fascinating topic from several angles. Heating rate, wicking (especially for twisted wire coils), vapor production, "gunking", stability, durability, material selection, assembly process, ease of manufacture, ...

At the moment, I'm personally fascinated by hybrid Nickel/Kanthal twisted builds for TC. But all coils really interest me. I blame TwistedMesses for this obsession.

You should start a thread on next-level coil design. If you do, please PM me so I don't miss it. I would love to participate.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Quote edited for content...

Basically, destroying the bonds of the metal at the molecular level goes against the basics of grade school earth science and would also destroy the metal itself. Let's face it guys, the bonds between molecules aren't magic they hold the metal together. If they are broken the metal changes into another substance ie: a *physical* reaction, just like turning wood into ash by burning it. That isn't what happens when we heat a coil, it wouldn't be much good for very long if it worked that way.

All electrical things that heat up would pretty much have to be thrown out if this is all to be believed; furnaces, electric stoves, curling irons etc. I'll pass.

The metal itself "may" be degrading on a molecular level, but it's a very small amount that is happening very slowly.

Is anything that is coming off the metal as its heated and we suck in the vapor that *may* contain particles of kanthal? Maybe. Is it harmful, who knows yet.

Lets save the end of the world supposition doc, compliments on the rest of the work you have done but this is just quack talk. When you have something to back it up, I'll be waiting,

:2c

There are no molecule of metals. There are no molecules of sand. There are no molecules of salt. Many things around us do not have molecules. Most crystals (and metals, sand, salt are crystals) do not have molecules. So, no "deterioration on molecular level". As Magaro pointed there could be leaching of some elements from metals at prolonged exposure to high (really high) temperatures. Would not happen at a few dry burns that coil go through. Long exposure to intermediate temperatures - while producing vapor - in (possibly) corrosive liquid (not PG and VG, but flavors)... Who knows. I hope it is not essential, but it is just my hope.

 

[Dampmaskin]

Iron melts at 1538 °C, (2800 °F). It boils at 2862 °C, (5182 °F). I believe this difference is important here, but I'm no metullurgist so I'm not going to assert anything.

 

[Magaro]

Something that Needs to be considered is the Environment that that the Alloy is Heated and then Cooled in.

If Oxygen is present, Surface Oxides can Readily Form on the Interface Boundary when the Alloy Cools. People will sometimes refer to this layer as "Scale".

I'm just not very Familiar with what Happens to Kanthals when it is Heated to Dry Burn Temperatures and then Cooled without Quenching. And How/If there can be Alloy Migration to/from the Surface Boundary?

The higher the temperature (in the presence of oxygen), the higher the rate of oxide (scale) formation. Migration of the alloying elements that want to form oxides to the surface will also be highest at the higher temperatures. If the coil is slow cooled, it is more likely that the oxide will stay bonded to the surface without spalling off. Dunking a hot coil in water shocks the coil, and the oxide spalls off, mostly due to differences in thermal expansion. Hope this helps.

 

[Rossum]

There are no molecules of salt. Many things around us do not have molecules. Most crystals (and metals, sand, salt are crystals) do not have molecules.

So the electrically neutral combination of an sodium atom and a chlorine atom isn't a molecule?

 

[Magaro]

Awesome, thank you.

Did you mean 400°C? or 400°F? Because if C, we never reach those temps (intentionally). 400°F yes, all the time.

My understanding of Ni200 was that in and of itself it's pretty unsafe? I mean it changes its nature ('fractures' or something?) quite significantly at 600°F. So one TC mistake and the wire may be of a completely different nature.

My view up until now is that Titanium and SS at the least could not be worse than Ni200? At least, assuming no over-burning etc.

WOW. My bad. I am so sorry. I can't get used to switching back to Fahrenheit after 30+ years of talking in Celsius. I meant Fahrenheit. I probably made that mistake me than once today. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[zoiDman]

The higher the temperature (in the presence of oxygen), the higher the rate of oxide (scale) formation. Migration of the alloying elements that want to form oxides to the surface will also be highest at the higher temperatures. If the coil is slow cooled, it is more likely that the oxide will stay bonded to the surface without spalling off. Dunking a hot coil in water shocks the coil, and the oxide spalls off, mostly due to differences in thermal expansion. Hope this helps.

Yeah... That is all Good Stuff.

Kinda the Stuff that people teach in Metallurgy Classes.

BTW - Do you know if Kanthal (in the Gauges that vapers use) is Cold Drawn?

 

[alicewonderland]

There are no molecule of metals. There are no molecules of sand. There are no molecules of salt. Many things around us do not have molecules. Most crystals (and metals, sand, salt are crystals) do not have molecules. So, no "deterioration on molecular level". As Magaro pointed there could be leaching of some elements from metals at prolonged exposure to high (really high) temperatures. Would not happen at a few dry burns that coil go through. Long exposure to intermediate temperatures - while producing vapor - in (possibly) corrosive liquid (not PG and VG, but flavors)... Who knows. I hope it is not essential, but it is just my hope.

well, broken down into ions then. NaCl (salt) breaks down into sodium and chloride ions in water. If we melt metal it breaks down, possibly into ions or 'free ions' which are hazardous to our health. in chemistry the term molecular level is used more loosely, more in line with the definition of 'microscopic', something we cant see with the naked eye. molecule can be used to describe gaseous particles as well, although they are not molecules themselves.

when the first study came out that said formaldehyde and freeions was present in vaping, it was debunked etc, because the temperature they tested at were at a temp no one would ever vape at. When we dryburn our coils, arent those temperatures we would never vape at? Makes you think at the least.

 

[zoiDman]

So the electrically neutral combination of an sodium atom and a chlorine atom isn't a molecule?

Check this out.

Molecules as components of matter are common in organic substances (and therefore biochemistry). They also make up most of the oceans and atmosphere. However, the majority of familiar solid substances on Earth, including most of the minerals that make up the crust, mantle, and core of the Earth, contain many chemical bonds, but are not made of identifiable molecules. Also, no typical molecule can be defined for ionic crystals (salts) and covalent crystals (network solids), although these are often composed of repeating unit cells that extend either in a plane (such as in graphene) or three-dimensionally (such as in diamond, quartz, or sodium chloride). The theme of repeated unit-cellular-structure also holds for most condensed phases with metallic bonding, which means that solid metals are also not made of molecules. In glasses (solids that exist in a vitreous disordered state), atoms may also be held together by chemical bonds without presence of any definable molecule, but also without any of the regularity of repeating units that characterizes crystals.

Molecule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW - I remember getting Roped into one of these Molecule Debates in College. That was back before the Internet. But it would have Filled Page after Page.

LOL

 

[Alien Traveler]

So the electrically neutral combination of an sodium atom and a chlorine atom isn't a molecule?

There is no such combination.

 

[Magaro]

You're very welcome. I understood thismuch above zero on most of it, but transcribing did end my spat of insomnia quite well !







Thank you Magaro, Lessifer and awsum140. So I have a question (bearing in mind I have zip knowledge of metal anythings and I do not wrap coils). Let's say that we do have 'spalling', and, let's say there is no metal in the vapor. Could it be that the metal atoms that are spalled off, attach themselves to another metal - like the stainless fittings in the tank? Would that be why there is no metal in the vapor? If this is the hypothetical case, should we then consider all tanks disposable after a certain time?

Another 'medical-type' question related to that is, will metal oxide nanoparticles in the lungs reflect and/or amplify pre-existing polonium already embedded in the lungs from smoking ?



I spoke to my resident lazer expert and better half about this, and his explanation was, approximately, "if you could tune the lazer diode to the frequency of the PG/VG then you could gas out the PG/VG. But it would have to be somewhere in the 10.6 micron wavelength (carbon dioxide lazer wavelength) and it would have to be a minaturized diode that is reusable more than once while still remaining efficient. And it would have to be cost-effective. And at this point, it is not commercially achievable."

I almost hacked up a lung reading this post. Awesome.

On a serious note, if the oxide film on your coils spalls off, it could end up anywhere: stuck to you coil or wick, glued in the goo inside your atty, or in your lungs. That still doesn't make it magically turn into the nanoparticles everyone freaks out about, but it doesn't just go away - it has to go somewhere.

 

[alicewonderland]

There is no such combination.

??? Did you just say salt doesnt exist

 

[zoiDman]

??? Did you just say salt doesnt exist

I keep Reading Alien's post Looking for the Catch too.

I Can't See it?

 

[Alien Traveler]

well, broken down into ions then. NaCl (salt) breaks down into sodium and chloride ions in water. If we melt metal it breaks down, possibly into ions or 'free ions' which are hazardous to our health. in chemistry the term molecular level is used more loosely, more in line with the definition of 'microscopic', something we cant see with the naked eye. molecule can be used to describe gaseous particles as well, although they are not molecules themselves.

While I agree that molten metals are very hazardous (remember "Terminator"?), gases do form true molecules: O2, N2, CO2... In chemistry term "molecule" is never used loosely, it is well defined thing.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I keep Reading Alien's post Looking for the Catch too.

I Can't See it?

No catch, sorry. I am deadly serious.

 

[alicewonderland]

While I agree that molten metals are very hazardous (remember "Terminator"?), gases do form true molecules: O2, N2, CO2... In chemistry term "molecule" is never used loosely, it is well defined thing.

i should probably go back to school then and slap all my chem teachers, because at the colleges here in california, 'molecular level' is thrown around in bio and chem alot just to describe something that cannot be seen with the naked eye. Also learned a long time before i attended college that NaCl is made of sodium and chlorine and is neutrally charged.

 

[Magaro]

well, you can melt things fast or you can melt things slow. the process of it degrading doesnt instantly cause it to break the circuit as soon as it starts to melt, it will still create a circuit as long as it is still once piece and allows the movement of electrons (current) through it. If you burn something and break it down, the composition changes and some of the molecules are released in gaseous form. It is certainly possible to melt wire by overheating it, and even more possible to melt nichrome wire since it has a lower temp rating than kanthal. whether it be melting it instantly by dry burning, or slowly by pulsing/vaping it, it is still melting/degrading over time.

Try dryburning a nichrome coil at 0.2-0.3ohms on a mech mod, it will literally melt and break and give you a shortcircuit, itll melt almost instantly when it turns red if you hold down the fire button, or if you pulse it, it will melt over time. Running a <0.3ohm nichrome coil at 3.7-4.2volts or 50-150watts is not far off from what some people like to vape either. So I'd say his finds have 'some' type of merit to them, although no detailed findings.

You REALLY shouldn't be melting your DRY, UNWICKED coils on your mod. You know that, right?

 

[zoiDman]

While I agree that molten metals are very hazardous (remember "Terminator"?), gases do form true molecules: O2, N2, CO2... In chemistry term "molecule" is never used loosely, it is well defined thing.

Well this Isn't a Chemistry Forum.

And I think Everyone understood what was Implied when the term "Molecular Level" was used.

I will concede that there are no Molecules in Metals if it gets this Thread back On Topic.

 

[alicewonderland]

You REALLY shouldn't be melting your DRY, UNWICKED coils on your mod. You know that, right?

i know this. This was only when I first started using Nichrome wire, which gives at a lower temperature, I thought I could just dryburn the chromium wire like I did my kanthal (as many people recommend just pulse it til it glows evenly), and while pulsing it, it started to melt. I also did dryburns (back when I used to) on my vaporshark rdna40, which has shortcircuit protection and just cuts off power if anything bad happens.

from experience and safety practices, I've learned you cant 'dryburn' the eliquid
/charred gunk off nichrome coils as you can in kanthal coils. In my experience dryburning seems bad because if it melted my nichrome, it has to be doing something to the kanthal too when I dryburn it, even if the damage isnt instantly apparent. I personally have stopped dryburning coils a while ago before this thread even popped up just by my own decision, because I thought there was something questionable about it. Since wire is cheap I just change them more often now, usually every 2 days or so, and im not that nitpicky about getting my wires squished and evenly heating right off the bat, so I dont do the ol' pulse and squish anymore.

 

[zoiDman]

No catch, sorry. I am deadly serious.

I know you are. And at Times you are Right to be a Stickler for Word Usage.

Just say'n that Arguing about the Meaning or Merit of the "Molecular Level" isn't one of those Times.