The end of microcoils?

[Magaro]

There was much Talk about Cr(VI) mostly at the End of this thread.

Stainless Steel mesh, Oxide discussion. | Page 20 | E-Cigarette Forum

Not sure how Much of it is of Value. But is one is Interested, they might want to check it out

I can't quote that thread, but here is a copy&paste quote from one post: "Certain types of SS, particularly those with low (or zero) Al and Mo content and lower Ni content (such as 309), exhibit volatilization of the Cr(III) oxide layer and subsequent oxidation of the vapor phase to Cr(VI) at temperatures above 950°C"

This is good information. And can pretty easily be checked for validity. But a 300 series stainless is NOT Kanthal. It is DESIGNED to form a chromium oxide scale, not the aluminum oxide scale which Kanthal forms. In any case, even if you were using 309 stainless coils the Cr(VI) production would immediately cease at lower temperatures. As someone said earlier, you probably shouldn't huff the vapors from your coil when you're dry burning it. But even if you DID, I know of no evidence that Kanthal would be emitting Cr(VI). We are NOT sitting around inhaling CR(VI) when we're vaping with Kanthal coils. To claim otherwise without evidence is professionally reprehensible.

Off to vape on my dry burned Kanthal coils.

 

[druckle]

@Magaro there's a Contact Me section on Dr F's blog - would you consider sending him an email?

I'm sure he's received a lot but if you introduce yourself with your qualifications I'm sure he'll read it, hopefully sooner rather than later

Maybe a subject containing "Hexavalent chromium is impossible" or whatever is correct to say - to ensure his attention.

I have sent email to Dr. Farsalinos asking him for contact information for Mr. Pedro Carvalho and mentioning the concern of several people in the materials sciences community in the United States about the accuracy of certain statements. I invited him to review my materials qualifications and provided links to references for his information.

I also explained that our concern is both with the health aspects of vaping and the potential for erroneous or misunderstood information to be used to harm vaping and thus deny millions the opportunity to more easily quit harmful tobacco smoking.

I will let everyone know about Dr. Farsalino's response.

 

[Katya]

Thanks, Druckle!

 

[LouisLeBeau]

The corners of the internet sometimes confuse me. I simply want to know his degree and experience qualifications to speak authoritatively about metal coils. This issue of raising concerns about hexavalent chromium is disturbing. And wrong. If I thought for a moment that Kanthal coils were emitting hexavalent chromium, I would stop vaping on them RIGHT NOW. But they're not. And this needs to be corrected. Because it's exactly this sort of falsehood that will give big tobacco the win they're looking for.

Pedro is a very nice guy. Join his forum, and send him an email. I am sure that as long as he doesn't sense a fight coming, he will give you the info you are asking for here.

Within his website, there is a lot of information. Nowhere does he say it DOES create them. He notes that a Cisco 306 LR atty when chain vaping can reach temperatures near 700C. He seems more concerned about the metal bridge in the atty than the coil itself. I have tried to find info on exactly what temp the possibility exists, but it only says "hot works" like welding on the OSHA website. Again, I have not seen a single post where he claims it DOES, just suggests erring on the side of safety and not excessively heating coils and atomizers. All I can give you, friend. I suggest a little footwork if you want the information you're demanding.

 

[zoiDman]

I can't quote that thread, but here is a copy&paste quote from one post: "Certain types of SS, particularly those with low (or zero) Al and Mo content and lower Ni content (such as 309), exhibit volatilization of the Cr(III) oxide layer and subsequent oxidation of the vapor phase to Cr(VI) at temperatures above 950°C"

This is good information. And can pretty easily be checked for validity. But a 300 series stainless is NOT Kanthal. It is DESIGNED to form a chromium oxide scale, not the aluminum oxide scale which Kanthal forms. In any case, even if you were using 309 stainless coils the Cr(VI) production would immediately cease at lower temperatures. As someone said earlier, you probably shouldn't huff the vapors from your coil when you're dry burning it. But even if you DID, I know of no evidence that Kanthal would be emitting Cr(VI). We are NOT sitting around inhaling CR(VI) when we're vaping with Kanthal coils. To claim otherwise without evidence is professionally reprehensible.

Off to vape on my dry burned Kanthal coils.

Yeah... You have to Consider the Time Frame of that Thread.

It was during a Time when Stainless Steel Wicks were all the Rage. And the SOP for SS Wicks was to Torch them before use.

Wasn't making any Correlations between SS Wicks and Kanthal. Just posted it because there is some Info about Cr(VI) and how it forms.

 

[Katya]

Pedro is a very nice guy. Join his forum, and send him an email. I am sure that as long as he doesn't sense a fight coming, he will give you the info you are asking for here.

Within his website, there is a lot of information. Nowhere does he say it DOES create them. He notes that a Cisco 306 LR atty when chain vaping can reach temperatures near 700C. He seems more concerned about the metal bridge in the atty than the coil itself. I have tried to find info on exactly what temp the possibility exists, but it only says "hot works" like welding on the OSHA website. Again, I have not seen a single post where he claims it DOES, just suggests erring on the side of safety and not excessively heating coils and atomizers. All I can give you, friend. I suggest a little footwork if you want the information you're demanding.

I also think that we are now talking about different materials--please correct me if I'm wrong. Stainless steel is not kanthal. Does anyone know what wire Cisco was using for his coils at the time? Kanthal, nichrome, ss?

 

[MacTechVpr]

Thanks Magaro. Interesting read. Above my pay grade, mostly, but I found the different applications of kanthal embedded in ceramic (ceramic tiles) promising. Should it turn out that using bare wire (annealed or not, spaced or touching, with or without the protective aluminum oxide scale) in our coils does indeed pose a danger (especially with constant contact with potentially corrosive eliquids, as Dr. F seems to believe), maybe a ceramic coil is the answer? Ceramic might provide an inert surface on which to vaporize the eliquids. I have no idea how practical (or costly) that might be, but the technology clearly exists--and ceramic coils would be much longer lasting than bare-wire ones, methinks.

I have a feeling that Dr. Farsalinos hadn't thought the whole issue through before he spoke, unfortunately. First of all, he seems to be conflating several different processes we use while making coils: torching, pulsing, and dry burning. He calls everything dry burning and apparently is under the impression that people just heat the coils haphazardly in order to eliminate hot spots and hot legs and whatnot, but he never once mentions oxidation. He seems to approve of coilers, but I have no idea why? People make contact coils on coilers and those coils are subsequently heated and retouched with tweezers to make them glow uniformly. Why would coilers be better than any other method? Does he think that coilers make spaced coils that don't need to be 'corrected' after winding? And what about annealed and non-annealed kanthal? Does he have a preference?

I'm so confused by his recommendations....

Ceramic embedded coils so far have proven inadequate in power delivery (lag). And as Dr. Farsalinos I believe has noted in prior study, shorter power bursts at higher power may be beneficial (as regards questionable juice components). Now it would seem power level is consistent (for metallic content indications), i.e. does not affect levels. Unsure what to make of that but without specific vaporizer filament data its rather difficult to posit a theory or explanation. In the meantime, we have ceramic winds in the form of properly oxidized coils and the techniques to arrive there. My take, as you're aware for the rest of us.

Yes, developments since the intro of the m.c. continue apace. My contributions focus attention on targeted temperature control through fundamental design principles for the wind and build.

Good luck.

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - There was a ECf Member who Torched some SS Mesh and sent them out for Cr(VI) testing.

As I recall they did test Positive. He then put the Mesh in e-Liquids and let them sit for varied amounts of time. He then had the e-Liquid tested. And they all came back Negative for Cr(VI).

This was by No Means a Controlled or Definitive Study.

But I always kinda Smiled and thought... "If some ECF Member with Little or No Expertise can do 'Kitchen' Testing, why can't the Big e-Liquid Houses and OEM's do their Own Research ?".

 

[Magaro]

I have sent email to Dr. Farsalinos asking him for contact information for Mr. Pedro Carvalho and mentioning the concern of several people in the materials sciences community in the United States about the accuracy of certain statements. I invited him to review my materials qualifications and provided links to references for his information.

I also explained that our concern is both with the health aspects of vaping and the potential for erroneous or misunderstood information to be used to harm vaping and thus deny millions the opportunity to more easily quit harmful tobacco smoking.

I will let everyone know about Dr. Farsalino's response.

Awesome. Much appreciated, sir (I checked ). Further clarification would be helpful.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

I also think that we are now talking about different materials--please correct me if I'm wrong. Stainless steel is not kanthal. Does anyone know what wire Cisco was using for his wicks at the time? Kanthal, nichrome, ss?

That's exactly correct. Within his website (which since is private, I don't feel inclined to copy and paste without permission) I can only find his concerns with regards to S.S. Mesh wicks, and BRIDGED atomizers. In fact in THIS post (you need to join to read) and this I will quote, he says "in my opinion the safer option is the one that only use the coil.... like an 306 without bridge." I hope that clears it up. I don't have an hour to watch the video so I don't know what Pedro says himself, but the text I've read in this post only seems to quote Dr. F. Have I missed something that Pedro has said about Hexavalent Chromium coming from Kanthal?

Edit: Well, I thought I created a hyperlink on the word THIS, but it doesn't appear to work. The quote I cite is at the very bottom of page 1 of the thread:
Topic: Safety: SS mesh or Silica wick?

 

[Katya]

Louis--I checked the specs for Cisco's atties. He used ss mesh for the bridge, NiChrome for the coils and silica for wicks.

Untitled document - Google Docs

BTW, I meant to say coils, not wicks, in my post above... Sorry.

So no kanthal in sight. And Cisco advises against dry burning--no further explanation.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Your post popped up while I was multitasking and writing my previous post. Can you point me at Pedro Carvalho's bio somewhere? I'm confused about how he could support and amplify the claims Dr. F has made about coils. It would be great if he could join this thread and participate in this discussion.

Really, I am on your side. I don't think Dr. F is correct about this. Can you give me an approximate timestamp in the video where you feel that Pedro is supporting and amplifying the claims Dr. F has made about coils? I am familiar with his concern about high temps and presence of Stainless in vaping, which I think IS correct, but I have never seen anything to indicate his fears are the same regarding Kanthal. Not saying it didn't happen, but I would like to see it in context.

Edit: Oh, and I am 99.99% certain that Pedro would not participate in a discussion here. If I remember correctly, he created his own site as he felt that discussions on other forums were a little too... contentious. I think he prefers respectful discussion and civility towards each other. No rules against disagreeing however.

 

[zoiDman]

I also think that we are now talking about different materials--please correct me if I'm wrong. Stainless steel is not kanthal. Does anyone know what wire Cisco was using for his wicks at the time? Kanthal, nichrome, ss?

No... Kanthal A-1 is not what most people would call "Stainless".

But 317L is. And I have seen threads where people are using it for Coil Wire. One Company is even Supposed to sell it with like a 3000% Mark-Up and a Trendy Name.

I don't know if Using it is Any Better or Any Worse than Kanthal A-1 or NiChrome 80 or Laminated Goat Hair.

I'm not sure if Anyone does?

 

[Taowulf]

I respect Dr. F but a metallurgist he isn't....so i will go with the opinion of the metallurgists in this thread.

And to not check for hot legs and even heating would more more disastrous in the long run for my vaping habit.

 

[Magaro]

Pedro is a very nice guy. Join his forum, and send him an email. I am sure that as long as he doesn't sense a fight coming, he will give you the info you are asking for here.

Within his website, there is a lot of information. Nowhere does he say it DOES create them. He notes that a Cisco 306 LR atty when chain vaping can reach temperatures near 700C. He seems more concerned about the metal bridge in the atty than the coil itself. I have tried to find info on exactly what temp the possibility exists, but it only says "hot works" like welding on the OSHA website. Again, I have not seen a single post where he claims it DOES, just suggests erring on the side of safety and not excessively heating coils and atomizers. All I can give you, friend. I suggest a little footwork if you want the information you're demanding.

Appreciate your input, but not the answer I was looking for. I don't feel like I should do "a little footwork" to chase down someone who helps toss a bomb out into our community and then doesn't have the integrity to come defend himself.

If you use dry burns to "clean" the coil what you are doing is to promote hexavalent chromium and carbonised juice aromas.

Actually, this sounds pretty much inflammatory. And incorrect. Did he use the word "does"? No. Is his statement scientifically corrupt? Yes. By this logic, heating a piece of Kanthal "promotes" it undergoing nuclear fusion. But it doesn't happen, does it? Data rules, my friend. Either he can support his statements or he can't.

If Pedro can't be bothered to join this discussion, then I think it's safe to say that we can ignore his uninformed inputs. Or at the very least assume that he really doesn't care very much about this community's concerns.

 

[Katya]

Actually, this sounds pretty much inflammatory. And incorrect. Did he use the word "does"? No. Is his statement scientifically corrupt? Yes. By this logic, heating a piece of Kanthal "promotes" it undergoing nuclear fusion. But it doesn't happen, does it? Data rules, my friend. Either he can support his statements or he can't.

I believe they were talking about stainless steel, not kanthal... There is no kanthal in Cisco's atties. But what do I know?

 

[Magaro]

Yeah... You have to Consider the Time Frame of that Thread.

It was during a Time when Stainless Steel Wicks were all the Rage. And the SOP for SS Wicks was to Torch them before use.

Wasn't making any Correlations between SS Wicks and Kanthal. Just posted it because there is some Info about Cr(VI) and how it forms.

NO criticism intended. I love this post. I just wanted to point out that even your average stainless steel isn't as hazardous as Dr. F. makes Kanthal (or any of our other current coil alloys) out to be.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

Appreciate your input, but not the answer I was looking for. I don't feel like I should do "a little footwork" to chase down someone who helps toss a bomb out into our community and then doesn't have the integrity to come defend himself.

Actually, this sounds pretty much inflammatory. And incorrect. Did he use the word "does"? No. Is his statement scientifically corrupt? Yes. By this logic, heating a piece of Kanthal "promotes" it undergoing nuclear fusion. But it doesn't happen, does it? Data rules, my friend. Either he can support his statements or he can't.

If Pedro can't be bothered to join this discussion, then I think it's safe to say that we can ignore his uninformed inputs. Or at the very least assume that he really doesn't care very much about this community's concerns.

I am trying to maintain my civility while you make vicious and ad hominem attacks on someone I consider a friend. You use charged words like irresponsible, and demand his credentials like he owes them to you. Context is all important. The ONLY thing you are basing your attacks on is this post:

I think that Pedro (from Caravela Mods) , who also participate in Farsalinos answer about the radio declarations about dry burns …may be a lot to do with these statements.

In June 2014 Pedro wrote in his blog:

“ I'm making real lives temperature test inside of one ohm 306 during vaping. Just one or two notes, a dry 306 of 1.5 ohms (from cisco) cam reach using a 700 degrees Celsius. At this temperature the possibility of formation of hexavalent form of chromium is real. So NEVER PUT YOUR COILS RED.”

And:

“I recommend to change the cotton if you see too much rust on it. NO DRY BURNS. Dry burns can leave to the formation of hexavalent chromium. Dry burns can also increase the degradation of the coil and burn the juice. If you use dry burns to "clean" the coil what you are doing is to promote hexavalent chromium and carbonised juice aromas. You think that the aty is clean because you do not feel the previous juice, but this means that you carbonised the aroma. Let's move forward to Ti asap.”


Pedro sugest the Ti wire like the most safe.

NOWHERE does he suggest that the HC is coming from the Kanthal. Per the quote I gave in a previous post, he specifically says it is safer to use an atomizer WITHOUT a bridge, coil only. So then don't you think that the context of the above blog quote assumes the presence of an S.S. bridge? If you have a MODICUM of common sense, you will see you are barking at the moon. So now I am going to insist that you show me where Pedro suggests that HC is coming from the Kanthal. It IS guys like you that are the reason that friendly and intelligent people drop out of these kinds of forums. Good luck getting the information you want, armed with the attitude you carry.

 

[etherealink]

I can't quote that thread, but here is a copy&paste quote from one post: "Certain types of SS, particularly those with low (or zero) Al and Mo content and lower Ni content (such as 309), exhibit volatilization of the Cr(III) oxide layer and subsequent oxidation of the vapor phase to Cr(VI) at temperatures above 950°C"

This is good information. And can pretty easily be checked for validity. But a 300 series stainless is NOT Kanthal. It is DESIGNED to form a chromium oxide scale, not the aluminum oxide scale which Kanthal forms. In any case, even if you were using 309 stainless coils the Cr(VI) production would immediately cease at lower temperatures. As someone said earlier, you probably shouldn't huff the vapors from your coil when you're dry burning it. But even if you DID, I know of no evidence that Kanthal would be emitting Cr(VI). We are NOT sitting around inhaling CR(VI) when we're vaping with Kanthal coils. To claim otherwise without evidence is professionally reprehensible.

Off to vape on my dry burned Kanthal coils.

Based specifically on that quote above, is it not more likely that given kanthal develops an aluminum scale instead of a chromium scale that if any spalling were occurring that we would be in fact inhaling minute amounts of alumina instead of hexavalent chromium. And even if that were the case, your spalling happens near 900 degrees Celsius or above... no one really vapes at that temperature anyway even at subohm levels. The point being we would not be in a situation to inhale much at all, even given extreme subohm conditions during normal vaping - not to mention the fact that the juice itself with its viscosity would help to minimize some of the spalling being transmitted I would assume.

 

[Katya]

If Pedro can't be bothered to join this discussion, then I think it's safe to say that we can ignore his uninformed inputs. Or at the very least assume that he really doesn't care very much about this community's concerns.

Magaro, I respect your expertise in metallurgy, but you are a new vaper and may not be aware that people like Pedro, Cisco, and Dr. Farsalinos have been investigating the safety issues of vaping for a long time--they are not complete idiots.

Earlier on this thread you made an insinuation that Dr. Farsalinos may have some unsavory ulterior motives for what he does, and now this...

Deep breath, my friend.