The Flavor Apprentice Flavoring Thread

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

Its a really good idea to date all mixes and jot down the recipe. If it sucks at anything over 6 weeks it is very likely trash with maybe the exception of tobacco flavors.

If I still don't like something after a deep steep (too strong), I'll cut it in half or quarter it with unflavored to see if that helps.

Often enough, steeping simply allows the flavor molecules to more evenly distribute throughout the liquid. In some cases like mints you can go as low as 0.5% and get a very nice fresh mint flavor, yet its often suggested to use far higher percentages.

A lot of what we see as bold flavor in premium e-liquids is not more flavor, but well steeped flavor.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying, I just don't think it's the best way to mix, particularly for new DIY'ers. I have been lucky enough to work with some of the top juice makers in the country, and if there is one thing I can share that they all universally agree on, it's this:

"If it's not good at the time of mix, it'll never become a great juice."

Most of you would know some of these brands and their makers. I was quite surprised to hear this myself, because I had believed this long-steep time non-sense myself, once upon a time. Long steep times will always change the flavoring of juice, or practically anything else, for that matter. The problem is that it rarely results in great juice, though, sometimes it does. And because it sometimes does, some juice makers think this IS THE WAY to do it, and it's not, in my opinion. So, while I agree with what you are saying, it's not the best way to learn to make juice.

I've tried for many months to help show new DIY'ers on this thread how to learn to make good juice, and we seem to have some good results, and some appreciative folks. So, I'm not saying you're wrong, because you're not, it's just another, more difficult way to do it. I just want all to be clear about this point. Making great juice does not require longer steep times, it requires either higher initial flavoring, which you can taste as "GOOD" right out of the can, and then adjust to suit taste, over and over until it is great, a process that takes me about 30 minutes, OR, you can take weeks of steep time and rarely make a good./great juice. This has been my experience, and like I have mentioned, I did lose about 6 months trying the long steep time method and ended up with only one good juice. In the next six month using a higher flavoring method I had 25 ADV's. A year later I had 150 ADV's. Never, ever could have done this with long steep times. Nor can you. Not 150 ADV's, my friend. No one can, it takes too long.

Ok, I've said my peace. Truly, no offense meant or intended. Just trying to give my actual experiences and keep it real here. You'll find me on this bandwagon hard and heavy about every three months. Good luck to you.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

The problem with long steep times is that it takes forever to make a decent juice and we can often become discouraged in our DIY. Higher flavored mixes at 20% - 30% flavoring allow us to test at the time of mix to find and make great juice. Following the long steep time nonsense, cost me a good six months in my mixing. The reason I say nonsense is not that juice can improve over a long steep time, it's just that it not only usually does NOT improve, it can make good juice less flavorful as well. Most of the time, bad juice that becomes good at the time of mix is due to an offending flavoring losing its strength over time, which means it didn't belong there in the first place. So, very rarely, bad juice becomes good, rarely great, and good juice can become bad.

For this reason, I always recommend to new DIY'ers to make juice that tastes good ATM (at the time of mix) and it will likely improve, initially over the first two hours and flavor bonds fully form, and peaking generally 24 - 48 hours later. If a juice takes months to become good, it was not a good juice to begin with, and because it accidentally becomes good two months later doesn't mean that is the best way to make juice, because it is not, imho.

Good juice can become great, but bad juice almost never does, so why play the long steep game? Mix with full flavoring to taste ATM, watch the improvement over a short time, and that's how you learn to make great juice. Taking a month to make a juice only to find out that it needs adjustment, then another month to test can take months to make a single juice. I tried this method, and wasted 6 months. Sure keep the bad juice and see if it's good, but don't plan a mixing program around this method, as you'll never learn to make great juice in an efficient way. That my two cents.

There are a number of flavors that simply don't require much by way of steeping, however many do require it.

Take tobacco, you will not find a good tobacco flavor that is ready to go at anything under a week at best and more often its four or five weeks.

Steep times can be accelerated by using an ultrasonic cleaner, if one is in a hurry to develop more flavors.

A huge mistake I think we all make is jumping into complex recipes and expecting good things to happen. More often than not the recipes you find online are way over flavored and never had much development time put into them.

It is often suggested to work on single flavor mixes first, then move on to recipes. How many of us actually did that? I didn't. It was a huge mistake that cost me time and a bit of money.

My ADV (TFA unless noted otherwise)

1455ml VG
15ml 100mg/ml VG base nicotine (1mg/ml final dilution)
9ml Mint Chocolate (LA)
8.64ml Mint Candy
4.98ml Double Chocolate Clear
2.52ml Hazelnut
1.86ml Bavarian Cream
1.26ml English Toffee
0.96ml White Chocolate
0.66ml French Vanilla Deluxe
0.12ml Peppermint

That's 2% flavoring (30ml), you could just as easily mix just the flavoring in a 30ml bottle and use it at whatever percentage you like.

It is mint forward with a chocolate back note, and smooth as silk. You can shake and vape if you like, or wait and watch it improve with time.

The chocolate, hazelnut, and toffee ratio (5:2:1) needs to remain fixed if you want to increase the flavoring percentage and bring chocolate flavor more forward. Tripling those three flavors brings Chocolate forward without muting the mint and brings the flavor percentage up to 3.168%. Or as I stated earlier, mix just the flavors and use it at whatever percentage you like.

Maurice

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

There are a number of flavors that simply don't require much by way of steeping, however many do require it.

Take tobacco, you will not find a good tobacco flavor that is ready to go at anything under a week at best and more often its four or five weeks.

Steep times can be accelerated by using an ultrasonic cleaner, if one is in a hurry to develop more flavors.

A huge mistake I think we all make is jumping into complex recipes and expecting good things to happen. More often than not the recipes you find online are way over flavored and never had much development time put into them.

It is often suggested to work on single flavor mixes first, then move on to recipes. How many of us actually did that? I didn't. It was a huge mistake that cost me time and a bit of money.

My ADV (TFA unless noted otherwise)

1455ml VG
15ml 100mg/ml VG base nicotine (1mg/ml final dilution)
9ml Mint Chocolate (LA)
8.64ml Mint Candy
4.98ml Double Chocolate Clear
2.52ml Hazelnut
1.86ml Bavarian Cream
1.26ml English Toffee
0.96ml White Chocolate
0.66ml French Vanilla Deluxe
0.12ml Peppermint

That's 2% flavoring (30ml), you could just as easily mix just the flavoring in a 30ml bottle and use it at whatever percentage you like.

It is mint forward with a chocolate back note, and smooth as silk. You can shake and vape if you like, or wait and watch it improve with time.

The chocolate, hazelnut, and toffee ratio (5:2:1) needs to remain fixed if you want to increase the flavoring percentage and bring chocolate flavor more forward. Tripling those three flavors brings Chocolate forward without muting the mint and brings the flavor percentage up to 3.168%. Or as I stated earlier, mix just the flavors and use it at whatever percentage you like.

Maurice

You may be right about tobacco vapes. They all taste terrible to me, and I've tried about 30 of them.

Most juices don't require long steep times, commercial makers don't use long steep times for the most part, many juices made to order, and you can achieve almost anything a long steep time can do in a very short time by increasing flavoring percentages. You may be unwilling to acknowledge this but it is a fact, and I don't want the new DIY'ers to get messed up in the archaic thinking of past juice mixing mythology, as it is not the only way to do it.

When I started to DIY, everything I read was about long steep times. It's one way, not the only way, and I've proven it so many times as to beyond question, regardless about what you or anyone else says. I've sold juice commercially, built whole lines of juice, and know my way around a vape lab. Take it for what it's worth. If you haven't tried the higher flavor way, then you may just not know. But long steep times with lower flavoring can easily be matched by higher percentage with no steeping times required. The difference is that I can know in 20 minutes if my juice is good, and long steepers can't, usually don't, and rarely make a decent juice, perhaps, at best, one in five to ten (10 - 20%).

I won't argue with you about tobacco's, as I don't make them, but pretty much everything else, I can copy in the space of an hour in my lab without a problem, have it on the street for testing tomorrow, and on a product line by the next day. Done it at least 50 times. So, I know how it works, my friend, and respect your way. it's just not the only way, to be sure, and not the way most juice gets made.

Bill

P.S. By the way for those of you that want to make a juice you can vape today, you will not need an UC, or heat, with the higher flavor method, LOL!

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

If you have a recipe written as I did above, you can make a boat load of 5ml samples in a variety of percentage of flavoring totals. I vape next to nothing as far as nicotine goes, and for some flavor percentages may need to be increased if you vape a higher nicotine juice.

Flavor ratios matter as much as if not more than how much of each flavor is used.

Similarly certain flavors work well together, while others just do not. When two or more flavors work well they almost always do so in a fixed ratio to one another.

Learning these ratios is what allows one to develop spectacular mixes.

I'm a miserly old guy, I've no desire to spend time or money when it is a waste.

With that being said I don't think there is much harm in setting aside 5-15ml of every mix you create and checking up on it down the road. The cost is minimal and the results are often very clear.

If anything it is important to know how time effects the liquids you create. I'd much rather determine that a particular mix degrades with time by deep steeping a small sample than to find this out with a larger batch I loved at the moment I mixed it.

Maurice

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

I want to share one, or two, of my blogs with all of you about high flavor mixing vs. long steep times:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ime-try-high-flavor-percentages-time-mix.html

I also want to share an actual mix that I went through to create a chocolate covered cherries for a fellow member:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ade-chocolate-chocolate-covered-cherries.html

If you can't see these because you're using these on your phone, or what have you, they were all once, originally posted here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...entice-flavoring-thread-346.html#post14228238

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...entice-flavoring-thread-433.html#post14339663

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...entice-flavoring-thread-283.html#post14122827

Some of you may find these useful, particularly if you want to learn to make good juice, and want to vape it before Christmas, or this evening. Happy holidays everyone!

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

If you have a recipe written as I did above, you can make a boat load of 5ml samples in a variety of percentage of flavoring totals. I vape next to nothing as far as nicotine goes, and for some flavor percentages may need to be increased if you vape a higher nicotine juice.

Flavor ratios matter as much as if not more than how much of each flavor is used.

Similarly certain flavors work well together, while others just do not. When two or more flavors work well they almost always do so in a fixed ratio to one another.

Learning these ratios is what allows one to develop spectacular mixes.

I'm a miserly old guy, I've no desire to spend time or money when it is a waste.

With that being said I don't think there is much harm in setting aside 5-15ml of every mix you create and checking up on it down the road. The cost is minimal and the results are often very clear.

If anything it is important to know how time effects the liquids you create. I'd much rather determine that a particular mix degrades with time by deep steeping a small sample than to find this out with a larger batch I loved at the moment I mixed it.

Maurice

I don't disagree a bit Maurice, my friend. It's just one of many ways to do it. My only point!

Also, I admire your fastidiousness with our craft, your dedication to vape, your willingness to explore, go the distance and the extra mile! I salute you, sir! I wish you well for the Holidays! Your fascinating ratio ideas need to be fully shared here, as I think we can all learn from you!

 

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

There are a number of flavors that simply don't require much by way of steeping, however many do require it.

Take tobacco, you will not find a good tobacco flavor that is ready to go at anything under a week at best and more often its four or five weeks.

Steep times can be accelerated by using an ultrasonic cleaner, if one is in a hurry to develop more flavors.

A huge mistake I think we all make is jumping into complex recipes and expecting good things to happen. More often than not the recipes you find online are way over flavored and never had much development time put into them.

It is often suggested to work on single flavor mixes first, then move on to recipes. How many of us actually did that? I didn't. It was a huge mistake that cost me time and a bit of money.

My ADV (TFA unless noted otherwise)

1455ml VG
15ml 100mg/ml VG base nicotine (1mg/ml final dilution)
9ml Mint Chocolate (LA)
8.64ml Mint Candy
4.98ml Double Chocolate Clear
2.52ml Hazelnut
1.86ml Bavarian Cream
1.26ml English Toffee
0.96ml White Chocolate
0.66ml French Vanilla Deluxe
0.12ml Peppermint

That's 2% flavoring (30ml), you could just as easily mix just the flavoring in a 30ml bottle and use it at whatever percentage you like.

It is mint forward with a chocolate back note, and smooth as silk. You can shake and vape if you like, or wait and watch it improve with time.

The chocolate, hazelnut, and toffee ratio (5:2:1) needs to remain fixed if you want to increase the flavoring percentage and bring chocolate flavor more forward. Tripling those three flavors brings Chocolate forward without muting the mint and brings the flavor percentage up to 3.168%. Or as I stated earlier, mix just the flavors and use it at whatever percentage you like.

Maurice

Sounds YUMMY Maurice! If you can translate this recipe to percentages, and make a suggestion about a substitute, perhaps, with TFA flavorings on the mint chocolate from LorAnn, I'll make this juice this afternoon. Thank you for sharing this too. It's what we do here. The fact that you spent so much time developing this juice, does encourage me to give it a try, and, frankly, I don't have a solid mint chocolate in my group, and I'm sure the missus will enjoy it!

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

I want to share one, or two, of my blogs with all of you about high flavor mixing vs. long steep times:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ime-try-high-flavor-percentages-time-mix.html

I also want to share an actual mix that I went through to create a chocolate covered cherries for a fellow member:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ade-chocolate-chocolate-covered-cherries.html

If you can't see these because you're using these on your phone, or what have you, they were all once, originally posted here:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...entice-flavoring-thread-346.html#post14228238

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...entice-flavoring-thread-433.html#post14339663

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...entice-flavoring-thread-283.html#post14122827

Some of you may find these useful, particularly if you want to learn to make good juice, and want to vape it before Christmas, or this evening. Happy holidays everyone!

I understand your methodology, that is essentially how I determine ingredient ratios. However once I have ingredient ratios figured I go an additional step and adjust for total flavor inclusion.

All the flavors remain in the mix, and they remain proportionate to one another. I simply reduce the total quantity to the very minimum needed to effectively communicate the flavor I am looking for.

Typically this uses less flavoring in the final e-liquid. Much less.

Flavor percentages don't need to be high, they can be, but I think it is important to note that not every e-liquid should strive for this.

I believe there is value in doing with 2% what is also done with 12%.

 

[Kaezziel]

I understand your methodology, that is essentially how I determine ingredient ratios. However once I have ingredient ratios figured I go an additional step and adjust for total flavor inclusion.

All the flavors remain in the mix, and they remain proportionate to one another. I simply reduce the total quantity to the very minimum needed to effectively communicate the flavor I am looking for.

Typically this uses less flavoring in the final e-liquid. Much less.

Flavor percentages don't need to be high, they can be, but I think it is important to note that not every e-liquid should strive for this.

I believe there is value in doing with 2% what is also done with 12%.

I can appreciate what you're getting at here... but in my past DIY attempts, I tried doing less overall flavoring and it just never worked out for me, personally... I've got pretty bad allergy problem, so my sniffer doesn't work too well... in conjunction, my tastebuds are equally screwed...

I tend to need about a 30% overall flavor ratio with the remaining 70% being nic and pg... fortunately, I don't use a lot of nic at this point, so my flavors don't get messed with too much. That's what's been working for me recently, anyway... who knows what the future may bring... I may be able to get a sinus and tongue transplant...

 

[jbushman26]

You may be right about tobacco vapes. They all taste terrible to me, and I've tried about 30 of them.

Most juices don't require long steep times, commercial makers don't use long steep times for the most part, many juices made to order, and you can achieve almost anything a long steep time can do in a very short time by increasing flavoring percentages. You may be unwilling to acknowledge this but it is a fact, and I don't want the new DIY'ers to get messed up in the archaic thinking of past juice mixing mythology, as it is not the only way to do it.

When I started to DIY, everything I read was about long steep times. It's one way, not the only way, and I've proven it so many times as to beyond question, regardless about what you or anyone else says. I've sold juice commercially, built whole lines of juice, and know my way around a vape lab. Take it for what it's worth. If you haven't tried the higher flavor way, then you may just not know. But long steep times with lower flavoring can easily be matched by higher percentage with no steeping times required. The difference is that I can know in 20 minutes if my juice is good, and long steepers can't, usually don't, and rarely make a decent juice, perhaps, at best, one in five to ten (10 - 20%).

I won't argue with you about tobacco's, as I don't make them, but pretty much everything else, I can copy in the space of an hour in my lab without a problem, have it on the street for testing tomorrow, and on a product line by the next day. Done it at least 50 times. So, I know how it works, my friend, and respect your way. it's just not the only way, to be sure, and not the way most juice gets made.

Bill

P.S. By the way for those of you that want to make a juice you can vape today, you will not need an UC, or heat, with the higher flavor method, LOL!

With your recipes as general guidelines, I've now about a dozen recipes of my own I'm pretty proud of and they are great day 1. (of course many bad ones too, but I just delete them) I don't even think of the word 'steep' ever unless I read it on here. If it's not really good immediately I usually delete or significantly alter the recipe.

I've experimented with Black Honey Tobacco and it is very useful imo.

RY4 Double 5%
Black Honey Tobacco 4%
French Vanilla Reg 4%
Vanilla Custard 2%
English Toffee 2% (Nature's Flavors sry)
Butterscotch 2%
Malt 2% (Nature's Flavors sry)

If you ever feel like ordering from ecigexpress, add these flavs and have a go. They all came from there or Wizard Labs, I think. Worst case scenario, you hate it but use the flavs for other recipes. Best case, you found a tobacco juice you can't put down.

Cheers!

 

[AndriaD]

Hi y'all. I realize I'm not really welcome here, but I have a question, and no matter how I search, I can't seem to find an answer, and since it pertains to a TFA flavor, I figured this was the place to ask it.

It's about the DX Bavarian Cream. I checked the Flavor Percentage Recommendations link, but it doesn't say anything about the DX version, just the regular Bavarian Cream -- it shows 5%-15% -- would that also apply to the DX version?

I'm particularly curious about a good percentage to use with a strawberry flavor -- not TFA, but the Inawera Shisha Strawberry; I tried it by itself, and it's ok, but nothing much to write home about. Just for the heck of it, I put one drop of the DX Bavarian Cream on the coil/wick which was already doused with the strawberry juice... and it's pretty good! But I really don't have any idea on what percentage to use, to mix it with this strawberry. Any recommendations would be welcome.

Thx!
Andria

 

[b.m.]

Those dx versions are all pretty new,so they probably wont pop up on many lists for a while,i think i have only seen one other person besides your post that have even mentioned them yet.My thought would be probably try it in a small batch trying it with the same recomendations as the regular,being it should be a very similar flavor,but i could be completey wrong.I would try it at around maybe 5% to start if it was me though.

 

[Kaezziel]

Hey Andria!
Well, I don't really know about the DX Bavarian Cream, I've never used it and am really just getting started in the DIY again... and all of these flavors are new to me.

As for the cream and strawberry... maybe try 10% Strawberry and 3% of the cream... mix up a small 10ml batch and try it... you can always add or subtract a percent point or two on the next batch... I'd also suggest adding a touch of french vanilla and maybe a little sweetener or cotton candy... check my Peaches and Cream recipe a few posts back and just substitute the strawberry for the peach, and I'm betting that you'd have a pretty tasty juice!

 

[jbushman26]

Hi y'all. I realize I'm not really welcome here, but I have a question, and no matter how I search, I can't seem to find an answer, and since it pertains to a TFA flavor, I figured this was the place to ask it.

It's about the DX Bavarian Cream. I checked the Flavor Percentage Recommendations link, but it doesn't say anything about the DX version, just the regular Bavarian Cream -- it shows 5%-15% -- would that also apply to the DX version?

I'm particularly curious about a good percentage to use with a strawberry flavor -- not TFA, but the Inawera Shisha Strawberry; I tried it by itself, and it's ok, but nothing much to write home about. Just for the heck of it, I put one drop of the DX Bavarian Cream on the coil/wick which was already doused with the strawberry juice... and it's pretty good! But I really don't have any idea on what percentage to use, to mix it with this strawberry. Any recommendations would be welcome.

Thx!
Andria

Can't answer your questions exactly but I can tell you about my 1st ever diy.

Strawberry Ripe 8%
Bavarian Cream 8%
Vanilla Swirl 4%

Very simple. Not touting it as the greatest recipe or the worst but the 1st puff basically gave me the realization that I would never again pay for someone else's marked up ejuice. I thought "This is just as good as what they sell in the stores!"

Yeah strawberries and bavarian creams go very well together imo. Hope that helps.

 

[b.m.]

Yeah I've had packages show as delivered, and got the next day....seems usps is a little chaotic during the holidays...happened recently with my key lime and coconut....said delivered to my front porch the day before and was in my mailbox the next day too. Hope you get yours soon.

So I mixed my white chocolate trial blends this am, just kept it simple for now with 10% white chocolate and 5% supporting flavor to see what I get initially, and I have a 15% trial of ry 4 double to try soon, mixed when I was sick and loopy so will have to see if went too high with % or not, didn't use supporting flavors either, so....???? Not sure what to expect.

Edited to add...omg! The white chocolate/candy cane smells so good, I think I'll try it next tank

Definitely looking forward to hearing your thoughts on the white chocolate.I've been trying to think of something to use it with and have came up empty haha.The only time i have used that flavor was in a white chocolate cappucino recipe i found somewhere,and the capp. is too intense and just buries the white chocolate.

If anything it is important to know how time effects the liquids you create. I'd much rather determine that a particular mix degrades with time by deep steeping a small sample than to find this out with a larger batch I loved at the moment I mixed it.

I can definitely agree with this one.I have a bad habit of mixing something,trying it and it's very good,so i go all in and make a 30ml bottle only to find a week or so later it has became something nearly unvapable haha.I've had a few that the flavors got weaker in,which is ok,but i have also had a few that got about 3 times stronger,and i've also had a few that changed to a completey different taste that didn't resemble any flavor used haha.Now i force myself to put a small amount off to the side and just make a 10ml at a time for a few weeks until i see what that small sample turns out to be.

 

[baseballmom]

Haven't tried yet, been eyeing it, checking forums, waiting to see how people like it and %'s being used, really curious how flavor compares to other version, but haven't seen much of anything yet....I want to try it out, I just haven't gotten around to ordering yet...I know, not very helpful....guess you could e-mail and ask if use at same %'s if no info is found? I usually use the regular at 3- 5% in fruit blends.

Ok just checked ........................
Average mixing quantity: 5.9%(median 3%)
Minimum:1%
Maximum: 15% (wow!)
Can't find any public recipes listed with it yet.

 

[baseballmom]

The white chocolate at 10% is good, I got to reformulate my supporting flavor %'s a wee bit higher, I think 5% is a little low, and add maybe 1% sweetener I think for my tastes/what I'm aiming for.

 

[readeuler]

I'm going to make a Wizard Labs order, probably after New Years, for random flavors I haven't tried, but that I'm interested in. If WL gets them in, I'll throw in a few DX versions of what I've got to compare.

The difference is that AP/acetoin has been replaced with Butyric Acid. Unfortunately, I've never tried pinpointing the flavor differences in Vanilla Custard vs. Vanilla Swirl, let alone any difference between Butryic Acid vs. the diketones, but if anyone has any experience isolating the differences between these small group of chemicals, I'm sure it would apply.

 

[AndriaD]

Ok, thx y'all. The Inawera flavors tend to be really strong, so I went at first with 4%; it was ok but a little weak. so I added 2 more drops bringing it to 6% (in a 5ml test), and one drop of TFA sweetener (1%)... better, but still a little... blah. That was when I decided to try just putting one drop of the DX BC on the dripper just to see how it did... and it did improve it, pretty considerably; the first hit was strong Bavarian Cream of course, but after that, when I got the mixed taste, very good. It's been sitting there for a while, so just now I tried another hit, and yeah, that's a good combo.

So I think I'll try: 6% Shisha Strawberry, 5% DX Bavarian Cream, 1% sweetener -- that Shisha Strawberry is pretty sweet, the description said "sweet strawberry coated in sugar," and yeah that's a good description. I'll try out that mix and see how it tastes, if any of it needs to be stronger or what, and let y'all know.

Thx!
Andria

 

[b.m.]

That sounds like a strawberry flavor i might actually like haha.I've tried both of tfa's and capella's,and while i can handle a small percentage ofthe capella's,i can't do either of the tfa ones at all,so i'll give that shisha strawberry a try.