Thank you for this explanation. While I understand exactly what you were doing before you wrote this, my focus on this thread is to help the new DIY'er, and this method, which works great for you, is just not the way to do it, imho. I'm not sure why you won't acknowledge that there are other ways to make juice other than your own, some vastly superior to it, from my point of view. I just want to get those frustrated DIY'ers up to speed, vaping their own juice, saving money today, vaping it tonight, and not trying to create a once in a lifetime experience, which is often how long-steeptime juices happen. Your way is A way, ONE way, not the only way, and I respect that it works for you. Doesn't work for me, didn't when I tried it for six months, and probably won't for most new DIY'ers. It is neither efficient, expedient, nor superior, nor simple, and more often than not, fails. I need those things. New DIY'ers need those things. Do you not understand where I am coming from? Different strokes for different folks?
With all due respect, I think your method sucks. Many DIY'ers give up waiting to make good juice. After six weeks of steeping, it still sucks most of the time, and who wants to take a year to just vape some juice? Time has proven that much to me, over and over. The fact that you have developed a marvelous recipe that takes weeks to be vapable may be a triumph to you, but it doesn't seem like it to me. The fact that I can probably copy your juice within an hour and be vaping it tonight, probably does not occur to you, but I've been doing that for a long time with about a 90% success rate. Aged juice is just a flavor change, not a change that cannot be matched today. All the commercial juice makers know this and practice this for the most part. I'm delighted it works for you, but your talking to the wrong guy about convincing me your way is a good way, or best. I've already proven the opposite to myself, to juice makers, to vendors and to vapers. You should give it a try, or at least acknowledge there's more than one way to get the job done. People will never learn to make great juice your way, imho. Maybe you prefer it that way. I'm all about giving it away, helping others, sharing what I've learned, and being fair and honest about the whole process, and have done so to the best of my ability. Trust me, I get it....
Thank you for this explanation. While I understand exactly what you were doing before you wrote this, my focus on this thread is to help the new DIY'er, and this method, which works great for you, is just not the way to do it, imho. I'm not sure why you won't acknowledge that there are other ways to make juice other than your own, some vastly superior to it, from my point of view. I just want to get those frustrated DIY'ers up to speed, vaping their own juice, saving money today, vaping it tonight, and not trying to create a once in a lifetime experience, which is often how long-steeptime juices happen. Your way is A way, ONE way, not the only way, and I respect that it works for you. Doesn't work for me, didn't when I tried it for six months, and probably won't for most new DIY'ers. It is neither efficient, expedient, nor superior, nor simple, and more often than not, fails. I need those things. New DIY'ers need those things. Do you not understand where I am coming from? Different strokes for different folks?
With all due respect, I think your method sucks. Many DIY'ers give up waiting to make good juice. After six weeks of steeping, it still sucks most of the time, and who wants to take a year to just vape some juice? Time has proven that much to me, over and over. The fact that you have developed a marvelous recipe that takes weeks to be vapable may be a triumph to you, but it doesn't seem like it to me. The fact that I can probably copy your juice within an hour and be vaping it tonight, probably does not occur to you, but I've been doing that for a long time with about a 90% success rate. Aged juice is just a flavor change, not a change that cannot be matched today. All the commercial juice makers know this and practice this for the most part. I'm delighted it works for you, but your talking to the wrong guy about convincing me your way is a good way, or best. I've already proven the opposite to myself, to juice makers, to vendors and to vapers. You should give it a try, or at least acknowledge there's more than one way to get the job done. People will never learn to make great juice your way, imho. Maybe you prefer it that way. I'm all about giving it away, helping others, sharing what I've learned, and being fair and honest about the whole process, and have done so to the best of my ability. Trust me, I get it....
Alright, some steep it hot, some steep it long, and some steep it for a few hours only.
The last time this debate was had, I believe Classy had to intervene - please, let's just drop it, as we've heard from both sides and will now make our own decisions. Bill's spoken his piece, Maurice, I hope you've spoken yours. You've inspired me to play around with juice that benefits from steeping (eventually, maybe), so you're not falling upon deaf ears.
I have been lurking in this form for awhile, I used to participate in TFA flavor threads but have since went to FA flavors so I really haven't been confident enough to participate here but I think I will....anyway I just wanted to add myand say something about steeping and flavoring this is 101
Single Flavor Mixes:
When you mix a single flavor and the percentage you mix it at is too low compared to the base you won't taste it until it binds with the base which dominate the mix. This is where needing to steep is necessary.Steeping is the waiting of chemical molecules to bind and the process of binding happens faster with heat (speed steeping). Re-doing your mix and raising the flavor percentage to its optimal level will allow you to shake and vape without the need for steeping. If it taste good or not depends on the flavor itself and the quality and taste of the base (all nic, pg, & vg are not created equal).
Multi Flavor Mixes:
The same premise about binding, but this time your flavors will also bind and create a totally different flavor or taste (for better or worse). You have to use your dominate or top flavor at the highest percentage and all other flavors lower to compliment your top note or dominate flavor. These multi flavored mixes may taste good at the start but once they begin to fully bond it may taste bad.and it doesn't take that long for the bonding to take place a day or so depending on the volume you mixed. a 3mil bottle will fully develop before a 30mil (common sense).this is why the golden rule is mix small batches.
I said all of this to say
Citric Acid This additive changes the bonding receptors of chemicals (or PH levels) at low doses, at high dosages it also adds a sour note to your mix. If you use Citric Acid it will allow your flavors to stay in their own lanes by changing the flavor concentrate molecule receptors. Binding only occurs when 2 like substances (flavor concentrates) come in contact with each other and they fight for dominance.. So the effect of citric acid changes the structure so that the molecules cant combine (inhibitor).. So if you mix apple with cherry you will have an apple cherry e-liquid instead of a apchely (apple-cherry combined) e-liquid and you will taste more apple or more cherry compared to each other depending on their strength in the mix. This additive will also allow you to mix at higher percentages to taste your juice right away without worrying about steeping or molecule binding when mixed at the proper percentage.
So you both are right...
Bill uses Citric Acid and he mixes at high percentages and he doesn't have to worry about steeping all he has to worry about is if he mixed the right percentage for it to taste good when mixed.
Tepid mixes at low percentages and waits on the steeping/combing process for it to mature and bond. But if you have to wait 8 weeks then your flavor percentages are too low or you are making 100ml of tobacco juice at a time
The only thing about Citric Acid is its safety for use and proper usage percentages in a mix Bill already shared how he uses it (I think).
Now before I get flamed or called a pseudo scientist here's a couple of references:
Enzyme Inhibition
Flavor enzymatic synthesis UAB Barcelona
Remember Tepid from a while ago? Stuck in a rut? Maybe. I agree with Disco180's explanation about how you can make juice slow and low, or fast and high. He was right then, he's right now, and I agree with him. 'Nuff said.
3 drops of 10% citric acid in your 10 ml mixes will cause your juice to "stay in your lane," as Disco suggests, and no steeping is required. It's science, not magic. Different strokes...
Alright, some steep it hot, some steep it long, and some steep it for a few hours only.
The last time this debate was had, I believe Classy had to intervene - please, let's just drop it, as we've heard from both sides and will now make our own decisions. Bill's spoken his piece, Maurice, I hope you've spoken yours. You've inspired me to play around with juice that benefits from steeping (eventually, maybe), so you're not falling upon deaf ears.
I had missed that post, that explains a lot, that I have been confused about. I have never used citric acid before, I have never seen it explained that way before. Thanks for quoting that, I am gong to have to find some of that stuff.
KAS
I got the powder on Amazon. Stuff is great. Use in the dishwasher too. If you ever add water to your mixes, you just about have to add citric acid. Bacteria cannot grow in the presence of citric acid, even with water, so it does a lot, and a little goes a long way, and a bag will last you.....what, a lifetime?
I had missed that post, that explains a lot, that I have been confused about. I have never used citric acid before, I have never seen it explained that way before. Thanks for quoting that, I am gong to have to find some of that stuff.
KAS
When I run into those extra strong flavorings, I take a couple of mils, and dilute it with a couple mils of PG.
Bill and I don't see eye to eye, you and I do, but I do see his side of it too.
That was a significant contribution, my friend. I would have never known! Mix and steep?When I run into those extra strong flavorings, I take a couple of mils, and dilute it with a couple mils of PG.
It makes it a lot easier to work with. I don't dilute the whole bottle, as I may want to use some "as is" in large mil recipes
Bill and I don't see eye to eye, you and I do, but I do see his side of it too.
Problem with his way (for me), is I just don't mix and vape.
When I mix, I usually mix 20-30 bottles (up to 6ml each), at a time, of all different flavors.
I don't have time to mix just enough for the day, because I rotate 8 mods daily, each with a different flavor.
I do not have an ADV.
So .. everything ends up being 4-6 weeks old before I get to it to start with.
When I've got about months worth left, I mix another batch of different flavors, and it go's to the back of the line.
I stay at least a month ahead of myself at all times, never "fresh"
All these were pre-tested in small amounts, after steeping, so I know they are good, or I've adjusted them so they would be good at a ripe old age.
There is no way I could have a large variety of flavors and recipes around without them naturally getting steeped, since I mix so many at a time, and only mix about once a month.
I guess my way of doing it all began when I first started vaping, because I started with tobacco flavoring (like most), and I knew they needed 6-8 weeks of steeping, so everything else automatically got it too.
I know people that mix and vape, because they vape the same thing everyday.
I'm just not going to mix up 8 different flavors every morning, to keep the variety I like going.
And yes, I like my flavors steeped, because to me, time gives them a chance to "do their thing"
So, Bills right for the mix and vape group, ... I'm part of the mix and steep group.
I love this thread, as I've found a lot of good recipes, even though I do them "my way", and stick to less than 20% flavoring.
I just don't contribute much since I'm on the other side of the fence, as to how it's done here.
Bill's helping a lot of people learn about DIYing, but like he says, to each his own.
We've butted heads a few times, but he hasn't chased me off yet
I would probably mix the ripe and sweet strawberry at 2% each with perhaps 4% of your favorite cream (sweet cream?) as a substitute. Probably up or down within 1% of goal, but only taste testing will work to be sure. It's a light touch and creamy, so you can play with it. If you start to taste dominant strawberry in the mix, we've gone to far. Hope that helps.
. Instead of ripe Strawberry I use ripe banana I didn't realize it till I went to vape it. I thought what the I spun the bottle around and thought dumbazz. You know what it's not bad at all I can see myself vaping it a little threw out the day
Well I goofed I grabbed the wrong bottle
Sounds wonderful! Totally agree on the sweetener/cotton candy flavoring. Major flavor enhancers!
