You know,he's like ET but from a different part of the planet and no red tip on his finger haha.
The Flavor Apprentice Flavoring Thread
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You know,he's like ET but from a different part of the planet and no red tip on his finger haha.
Monica, in Tapatalk, from the thread list in the upper left is a multi bar type box. Tap that and you will get a list. the lists, along with Subscriptions and such, one is Messages. Tap messages and you cam get to your PMs. To return to subscriptions tap the bar icon again and tap Subscriptions.
Hope that helps!
Hope that helps!
Hi everyone,
I've been reading this topic for a couple hours now and feel that I need to start off saying I'm not trying to re-invoke any arguments on mixing schools of thought. I've decided to go DIY rather than continuing to buy expensive premixed liquid, and getting ready to start doing a lot of mixing/taste testing and can still go either way - ie, steeping over a period of time before deciding on a flavor vs. going higher on flavor percentages to get a more immediate result I can vape same day. I have a couple of mixes I am happy with right now, so I'm not in a giant "bind" on getting some DIY results fast because I'm out of liquid (LOL). I just have several general flavors I'd like to work on and one flavor I need to try to match as closely as possible for my wife. I've got quite a few TFA flavor samples and a couple/few others but after reading this topic and elsewhere the last couple weeks, I can see that I will probably need to place another order to get some more.. I didn't get much in the dept of creams or vanillas.
I had planned on trying to accelerate the steeping process with heating to help make a decision on a flavor mix before making larger-than-tester-size batches with nicotine, but posts in this topic (or perhaps Bill's blog) make it another time I've seen it said that heating liquids to try to speed the steeping up will change the flavor in different ways than just time will. So I'm really questioning whether I should try to do that now. I'm thinking a lot less favorably about it.
I can see the logic in mixing higher overall flavor percentage so you don't have to wait days or weeks for the flavor to mature and I think this might be the best thing for me right now as a new DIYer, at least in figuring out the right ratios of flavors "X, Y, Z" (and perhaps A, B, C, and D too, haha).
But I do have a couple of questions about using flavor percentage in the 20-30% overall mix range, if folks wouldn't mind sharing their opinions or (preferably) experience about it. It's possible I've just been doing too much reading, but I don't want to screw this up.
These are my questions --
1) What do you think of the notion of using higher flavor percentages while taste testing and working up recipes - ie, to get the idea of what a good overall mix will be, and then once a recipe is more or less established, taking those flavor percentages back down to a lower overall mix percentage (but keeping the same % of flavoring ratios between flavors) for more of a "longevity" mix? ie, something you might not vape for a couple weeks after you mix the bottle once the flavors have had time to steep to develop the flavor?
Could this work?
2) I've read a bunch of times not to overdo it with flavoring - and that TFA flavorings can be less forgiving than, say, Capellas, if you put too much flavoring in the mix. Also, that once you go over a threshold with flavors - or mixes of flavors, sometimes all you get are perfumy or chemical type flavors because there is too much flavor. I've read this in particular about TFA flavorings, which is what I bought most of. Bill I'm curious what your take on this is. Do you ever run into this? Is it something that smooths out over time, or not really a problem if you keep the ratios good for the particular flavors being mixed?
Thanks in advance for any advice on these.
I've been reading this topic for a couple hours now and feel that I need to start off saying I'm not trying to re-invoke any arguments on mixing schools of thought. I've decided to go DIY rather than continuing to buy expensive premixed liquid, and getting ready to start doing a lot of mixing/taste testing and can still go either way - ie, steeping over a period of time before deciding on a flavor vs. going higher on flavor percentages to get a more immediate result I can vape same day. I have a couple of mixes I am happy with right now, so I'm not in a giant "bind" on getting some DIY results fast because I'm out of liquid (LOL). I just have several general flavors I'd like to work on and one flavor I need to try to match as closely as possible for my wife. I've got quite a few TFA flavor samples and a couple/few others but after reading this topic and elsewhere the last couple weeks, I can see that I will probably need to place another order to get some more.. I didn't get much in the dept of creams or vanillas.
I had planned on trying to accelerate the steeping process with heating to help make a decision on a flavor mix before making larger-than-tester-size batches with nicotine, but posts in this topic (or perhaps Bill's blog) make it another time I've seen it said that heating liquids to try to speed the steeping up will change the flavor in different ways than just time will. So I'm really questioning whether I should try to do that now. I'm thinking a lot less favorably about it.
I can see the logic in mixing higher overall flavor percentage so you don't have to wait days or weeks for the flavor to mature and I think this might be the best thing for me right now as a new DIYer, at least in figuring out the right ratios of flavors "X, Y, Z" (and perhaps A, B, C, and D too, haha).
But I do have a couple of questions about using flavor percentage in the 20-30% overall mix range, if folks wouldn't mind sharing their opinions or (preferably) experience about it. It's possible I've just been doing too much reading, but I don't want to screw this up.
These are my questions --
1) What do you think of the notion of using higher flavor percentages while taste testing and working up recipes - ie, to get the idea of what a good overall mix will be, and then once a recipe is more or less established, taking those flavor percentages back down to a lower overall mix percentage (but keeping the same % of flavoring ratios between flavors) for more of a "longevity" mix? ie, something you might not vape for a couple weeks after you mix the bottle once the flavors have had time to steep to develop the flavor?
Could this work?
2) I've read a bunch of times not to overdo it with flavoring - and that TFA flavorings can be less forgiving than, say, Capellas, if you put too much flavoring in the mix. Also, that once you go over a threshold with flavors - or mixes of flavors, sometimes all you get are perfumy or chemical type flavors because there is too much flavor. I've read this in particular about TFA flavorings, which is what I bought most of. Bill I'm curious what your take on this is. Do you ever run into this? Is it something that smooths out over time, or not really a problem if you keep the ratios good for the particular flavors being mixed?
Thanks in advance for any advice on these.
The step down process might work for some mixes but it probably won't work for most. Some flavors dissipate with time, and some get stronger. Make a lemon drop with 8% Lemon and you won't even taste it in a week. A custard might overpower at 6% but at 4% it won't be noticed. You can mix in lower %, but the only way to do it reliably is to mix, steep, taste.
2. Tfa ingredients are not as user friendly as capella in that a majority of tfa flavors are not complete for our purposes. They are ingredients to be mixed to make something more complex. They all have varying strengths, and require multiple flavors for a good basic mix. A simple strawberry looks more like. ..
Strawberry ripe 12%
Vanilla swirl 3%
Sweet cream 3%
Sweet 3%
EM 3%
Whipped cream 2%
Once you get the hang of tfa flavors you can make anything in an hour. Only non tfa I keep anymore is LA cream cheese icing and yellow cake.
2. Tfa ingredients are not as user friendly as capella in that a majority of tfa flavors are not complete for our purposes. They are ingredients to be mixed to make something more complex. They all have varying strengths, and require multiple flavors for a good basic mix. A simple strawberry looks more like. ..
Strawberry ripe 12%
Vanilla swirl 3%
Sweet cream 3%
Sweet 3%
EM 3%
Whipped cream 2%
Once you get the hang of tfa flavors you can make anything in an hour. Only non tfa I keep anymore is LA cream cheese icing and yellow cake.
Wanted to ask for input on TFA's M-Type Tobacco. A friend had some he wasn't fond of and gave it to me.
I ask because I have no frame of reference for tobacco flavors, no idea what tobacco should taste like. I've tried a few tobacco liquids made by others that I thought were pretty good however and figured I'd give it a shot.
So basically how should I treat this stuff, what sort of flavor profile it has, ect, anything would be a great bit of help.
I ask because I have no frame of reference for tobacco flavors, no idea what tobacco should taste like. I've tried a few tobacco liquids made by others that I thought were pretty good however and figured I'd give it a shot.
So basically how should I treat this stuff, what sort of flavor profile it has, ect, anything would be a great bit of help.
It's strong. Mix it at 2% if you have a deathwish.
I mix it at .75% for a brother in law and he loves it. That is 0.75 of 1%
I don't do tobacco flavors, so I can't be much help with the flavor profile.
I mix it at .75% for a brother in law and he loves it. That is 0.75 of 1%
I don't do tobacco flavors, so I can't be much help with the flavor profile.
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Holy crap 2% is too much as a stand alone flavor? Thank God I asked considering TFA site recommends 4-8%.
Wonder what the steep time is with such a low percentage. Must be relatively long.
Homey don't steep. At most in a high vg mix I'll heat the bottle just a tad in warm water just so it mixes better with a good shake.
Once upon a time I dropped a ml or 2 of that stuff on the carpet. You could smell it in that room for a week.
Get 10ml of your pg/vg base and pop in .075ml. Give it a good shake and try it. If you need more strength give it another .025 ml and so on till you get to where you want it.
Once upon a time I dropped a ml or 2 of that stuff on the carpet. You could smell it in that room for a week.
Get 10ml of your pg/vg base and pop in .075ml. Give it a good shake and try it. If you need more strength give it another .025 ml and so on till you get to where you want it.
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Huh weird, I was under the assumption that tobacco flavors take far longer to steep than others.
Great questions, Nic-Holio!
It is easier to learn to DIY with high flavor mixes because you can try them and taste them at the time of mix, and you don't have to wait perhaps weeks to see if you made something good. At first, unless you are following recipes, it's not going to be good, because it takes a while to learn the percentages. Sure, single flavor percentages are easy, they also don't taste very good 90 - 95% of the time with TFA flavorings. The great thing about TFA flavorings is that they are not complete flavorings and have to be mixed. As such, we can make just about any flavor imagineable, though there are a few noticeable holes in the TFA line. No matter, half a dozen flavors from other vendors will likely give you everything you will ever use.
I do recommend you start with recipes. Try a couple and see if you like them. The high flavor mixes (HFM) can be vaped right out of the can, so to speak. HFM can be mixed and vaped, and this allows you to make adjustments to the ingredients in a single session. I will often start on a recipe and adjust the mix four to eight times before I find the flavor I am looking for. Start low at say 15% with multiple ingredients, then add and subtract until you get what you want, generally in the 20% - 30% range.
As MOV said, some flavors like lemon do dissipate after a week, but it also depends on the mix. Some lemon flavored mixes don't lose their flavorings over time. There's a slight initial drop for a day or so, then the lemon is still there, and stays there over time. So, it's not just the flavoring, it's also the mix, including the other ingredients used.
I don't have a problem steeping, and do often steep my base flavorings, sometimes for months at a time. These bases include on the VG flavorings...no nicotine, and no VG:
If you do decide to steep your juices, a process that takes 2 - 4 weeks generally, and longer for tobaccos, you won't be able to taste or vape the juice for a long time. When you do, it may not work out for you. When I first started mixing, probably 90 - 95% of everything I mixed and steeped tasted somewhere between meh and bad. Do that for a couple or three mixes over a couple of months, and you want to give up on DIY.....or, at least I did....until I discovered HFM. I have a blog on how I made a chocolate covered cherry for a member, and the eight 100DT I used to get there. I make all my juices this way.....every one customized to my taste preferences. I recommend this method. First, though, make a couple of recipes and see if you like them. Once you find at least one mix you do like that you can mix and vape, you can stop buying retail, and start saving money.
Most mixes have a percentage in which if you put in too much, you will get a chemical/floral note. Some seem to have the C/F note at all percentages. Not too worry. Three methods eliminate that problem. First, lower the percentage, assuming it still tastes okay. Second, add up to 2% raspberry, or up to 5% strawberry to the mix. These will kill the C/F notes. Third, add cream, vanilla and sweetener/cotton candy, collectively in the 15% range +/-, and the C/F note also goes away. Grape is a good example of this. Very Floral (perfumery) after adding a smidgen. Add 2% strawberry, which you won't taste to a little vanilla (4%)/Sweet Cream (4%) and sweet and tart/sour (2%), and you will get a wonderful grape starburst. Drop the sweet and sour/tart, add bubble gum (2 - 4%), and you have bazooka grape bubble gum. Add both, together and you have grape bubbleburst. All wonderful. You can do the same with just strawberry (5 - 7%), or apple, lemon, and other fruits. All of these can be mixed and vaped.
Many, perhaps most, deserts can be mixed and vaped. Using cream, vanilla and sweetener/cotton candy to many flavorings will make a great juice. The possibililties are almost infinite. Of course, that's half the fun....unless you don't make a decent juice for six months using the steep method, which happened to me. So, for new DIY'ers, I recommend HFM. If you already know how to mix, you can do both, either, etc. Finding a good juice that you can make and that you like to vape is all that matters. Both ways have merit. One is not superior to the other, tobacco being, perhaps, the lone exception, imho. The only way you'll know for sure is to try each method and see what works for you.
By the way, the only issue about the two methods is that many mix and steep folks don't think there is another way to make juice, or that mix and vape is not valid, or that somehow it's inferior, none of which is true. Flavoring is flavoring. You can mix to it, or steep to it, both are valid and get the job done. We all get half way up the mountain, turn to one another and say, "Yes, but my way was best."
Regarding stepping down flavorings, it can be done pretty easily, but to do so requires that you understand both methods, i.e., HFM AND steeping, before you can understand the process, percentages, mixes, etc. Certain ratios need to be maintained, but not all of them. How do you learn the difference? By doing both methods. So, the step down method may take the longest to learn how to do, but none of any of this is particularly hard or difficult. Learn from others by trying recipes. Learn both mix and vape and mix and steep, but in that order, imho. After that, you can do step down with confidence. Hope this helps.
Thanks Master of Vapor. It makes sense.
Yep, this makes sense.
Gotcha. Sounds like finer points that will just come with time/experience.
On my first mix attempt I tried to use 19 drops PG/VG + 1 drop flavor to test 5%, vape a couple drops, add 1 drop PG/VG and 1 more drop flavor (10%), etc. but found out quick that this doesn't work very well if you don't have all the same droppers on everything, lol. At that point I just switched to syringes. But if it comes down to it I have enough bottles with the same tips to do drops.
By base flavorings do you mean single flavor ingredients or the, for example, cream fantastico base you use with a lot of mixes? (or both? lol)
Agreed. This would make finding good mixes/recipes really slow. Discouragingly slow.
I've got a straight menthol already figured out (from menthol crystals dissolved in PG), and a Tobacco Absolute/EM/Seedmans Captain Black that works pretty good after a few days (based on some info I saw from scubabatdan and general dilution recipes for pure TA), so I'm pretty free/clear to experiment. I'm not sure how many tobacco flavors I'll end up messing with and know they will be "special" as far as needing steep time -- but do plan on making more non-tobacco flavors than tobacco ones, so HFM should be pretty helpful.
Is there a place with various recipes using HFM methods of mixing you could recommend? I did see your blog posts also with the general recommendations on cream blends, etc., they're bookmarked now.
I still need to dig a little deeper to find your 100 drops method detailed. I didn't read the whole chocolate cherries post but I will go back and read it.Thanks - this will definitely be helpful AND is encouraging with regard to the possibilities that can be acheived with little variations.
Many, perhaps most, deserts can be mixed and vaped. Using cream, vanilla and sweetener/cotton candy to many flavorings will make a great juice. The possibililties are almost infinite. Of course, that's half the fun....unless you don't make a decent juice for six months using the steep method, which happened to me. So, for new DIY'ers, I recommend HFM. If you already know how to mix, you can do both, either, etc. Finding a good juice that you can make and that you like to vape is all that matters. Both ways have merit. One is not superior to the other, tobacco being, perhaps, the lone exception, imho. The only way you'll know for sure is to try each method and see what works for you.
By the way, the only issue about the two methods is that many mix and steep folks don't think there is another way to make juice, or that mix and vape is not valid, or that somehow it's inferior, none of which is true. Flavoring is flavoring. You can mix to it, or steep to it, both are valid and get the job done. We all get half way up the mountain, turn to one another and say, "Yes, but my way was best."
Regarding stepping down flavorings, it can be done pretty easily, but to do so requires that you understand both methods, i.e., HFM AND steeping, before you can understand the process, percentages, mixes, etc. Certain ratios need to be maintained, but not all of them. How do you learn the difference? By doing both methods. So, the step down method may take the longest to learn how to do, but none of any of this is particularly hard or difficult. Learn from others by trying recipes. Learn both mix and vape and mix and steep, but in that order, imho. After that, you can do step down with confidence. Hope this helps.
It does - it helps a lot. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'll go back over your posts about bases/creams etc. and get another flavorings order together to make the bases with - I did get TFA sweetener (sucralose) and some EM crystals, but no cotton candy yet. I'll also go searching for recipes.
Thanks again to both of you!
Nic-holio
@Bill - I found a lot of your recipes right there in your blog posts. Ha! It helps to look at the entire post rather than the summary
thanks!
thanks!
The recipes in which I steep the PG bases include the PG, if any, and PG flavorings to 30% of final mixture. The steeped bases are often slightly richer, but not so much I wouldn't vape them day one. Since I don't mix with offending flavors, I don't have to wait sometimes weeks for them to dissipate, which does often happen with steeping. Great juice day one (HFM) usually translates to great juices weeks later. Often times bad juice day one, never translates to great juice weeks later.
Edit:
A set of these droppers may be all you'll ever need:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0088ARCUU/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
If you mix and 100DT a lot, you may need two sets, but start with one and see how that works for you. Also, glassware is important, and so are glass bottles. Juice will leach after a month, some after a minute.
Edit:
A set of these droppers may be all you'll ever need:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0088ARCUU/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
If you mix and 100DT a lot, you may need two sets, but start with one and see how that works for you. Also, glassware is important, and so are glass bottles. Juice will leach after a month, some after a minute.
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Thanks - I've got a bunch of 12ml/3dram glass vials I picked up for mixing/steeping/taste testing, some pyrex funnels and beakers, etc. Do still have a thing or two I need there but just added the glass droppers to my wish list. They're certainly cheap enough in 12pks.
Working down the list of base flavors in Bill's blog post, I'm having a little trouble finding TFA Vanilla Custard. 1 Stop DIY Shop doesn't list it in any size although they have just about every other flavor. It looks like I could probably order it direct from TFA, at least in up to 30ml sizes. Anyone have any other sources for this?
I could probably get by without it for a while though - I only see a few recipes that use it in the recipe collection.
Thanks
I could probably get by without it for a while though - I only see a few recipes that use it in the recipe collection.
Thanks
Wizard labs sells it in 8 ml vials
If you want larger sizes you can get them from tfa with wholesaler account. Cheapest way to do it. 8 bucks for 4oz
Big sizes are encouraged, and if you keep them out of direct light and away from heat they will stay good for years
If you want larger sizes you can get them from tfa with wholesaler account. Cheapest way to do it. 8 bucks for 4oz
Big sizes are encouraged, and if you keep them out of direct light and away from heat they will stay good for years
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Hey Guys,
wondering if anyone can help me come up with a good recipe or if anyone has tried these flavors. They are all TFA, my first step into the DIY pool.
I have access to these flavorings:
Flue Cured Tobacco
Black Honey Tobacco
Sweet Cream
Caramel
Butterscotch.
I have tried a 3% flue cured, 2% buttercotch 1% sweet cream and it is tolerable.
Tried a 6% black honey tobacco with 3% caramel and 3% butterscotch and it is rubbish. Tastes like black licorice, awful.
Any ideas on recipes would be awesome. I have to try to speed steep too because I am almost out of my store bought favorite and really dont want to purchase at the store anymore.
wondering if anyone can help me come up with a good recipe or if anyone has tried these flavors. They are all TFA, my first step into the DIY pool.
I have access to these flavorings:
Flue Cured Tobacco
Black Honey Tobacco
Sweet Cream
Caramel
Butterscotch.
I have tried a 3% flue cured, 2% buttercotch 1% sweet cream and it is tolerable.
Tried a 6% black honey tobacco with 3% caramel and 3% butterscotch and it is rubbish. Tastes like black licorice, awful.
Any ideas on recipes would be awesome. I have to try to speed steep too because I am almost out of my store bought favorite and really dont want to purchase at the store anymore.
Thanks MasteroftheVape. A wholesale account would be neat but I don't know if I'd order often enough (or volume enough) for it to be worth their while. OSDIY sells larger sizes of a lot of their flavors and does special orders so they could probably order it for me. Thanks again.
Wholesale account is free, no minimum orders, just go to the bulk size section and make an account. It just allows you to buy their larger sizes which are far more cost effective.
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