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Let's not forget that if or when the big tobacco company's jump on the band wagon, their ecig stuff will be propriatary. If they make them cheap enough to draw people in, then those people are stuck buying all their supplies from the big tobacco company's which could very well hurt the small businesses.
I think every government understands the income potential of tobacco.
A few don't rape citizens w/ high taxes; perhaps due to black market concerns.
We can fight this though. Should vaping catch on in the future as of right now, ECF has free business cards we can get if we just pay shipping and handling. I don't know you about you guys but I do plan on getting a stack and handing them out to people who ask me questions and such. They will be even more useful in the future. If BT gets into this, which is likely in the next 5 years or less, their quality is going to be JUNK. They will want people to keep re-buying things, profit after all. I don't think they are capable of building something like an e-Go/Riva/T-rex and selling it for 5$ or a Provari for 25$. Knowledge will be power. I'm gonna fight the good fight simply because e-ciggs are saving my life. If it comes down to it, I'll go to 0 nic and buy throat hit juice. BT is NOT getting another dime from me when their in the business to kill and gave my father stage 3 cancer. Luckily he lived, but too many are not that lucky...
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We ARE being attacked, and we ARE being threatened.
We need to raise our voices, and stand firm for once.
I will not be cast out, or put in a corner any longer.
I hope those of you reading this feel the same, and understand the need to get informed and fight.
Yes, it is that serious.
I wish it wasn't.
Legislation News
Media and General News
Campaigning discussions
Law and the E-Cigarette
CASAA
We ARE being attacked, and we ARE being threatened.
We need to raise our voices, and stand firm for once.
I will not be cast out, or put in a corner any longer.
I hope those of you reading this feel the same, and understand the need to get informed and fight.
Yes, it is that serious.
I wish it wasn't.
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Well there is the growing part which is hard enough for most.
I don't know about legality.
I was also referring to nic extraction not being easy.
Although BT is not a good place in our eyes, keeping e-cigs listed as a smoking alternative keeps PHARMA out. That is where the ENORMOUS price increase will come from if they get involved. BT could be a 'good' enemy if there is such a thing, it will be bad to have to order proprietary things but they will do the research because they can't afford more lawsuits. The GOVERNMENT and FDA are the true enemies! Taxation is key, if the government can get theirs they don't give a rats ... about anything else.
Having lived and traveled in various places besides America, it always amazes me how much Americans are suspicious and distrustful of their own government. This used to be a good thing, but I think the last decade and especially the last 3 years its become more of a problem than a good thing.
I grew up in the fifties. Far less regulation, far less taxes. (Well, income taxes were actually much higher but other taxes ranging from gasoline to cigs and everything else were low or nonexistent)
It was nice having no regulations, but along with that we had absolutely filthy water and air. So bad it wasn't even fit for human consumption. Most people just threw trash out the windows onto highways. Most companies dumped pollutants directly into streams. The big cities like New York just dumped raw sewage directly into the harbor.
Roll forward 50 years, and now we have a lot more government, a lot more regulations. Thats not great by itself, but the water and air is light years better.
Personally I want the FDA and as many government agencies as possible inspecting my egic components and welcome it. Those guys aren't perfect, but its been shown time and time again, as messed up and as overbearing as governments can be, that is nothing compared to the greed and evil that companies will do for a quick buck if left to their own devices.
I just don't get where this "I hate the FDA" anti-science junk comes from.
I grew up in the fifties. Far less regulation, far less taxes. (Well, income taxes were actually much higher but other taxes ranging from gasoline to cigs and everything else were low or nonexistent)
It was nice having no regulations, but along with that we had absolutely filthy water and air. So bad it wasn't even fit for human consumption. Most people just threw trash out the windows onto highways. Most companies dumped pollutants directly into streams. The big cities like New York just dumped raw sewage directly into the harbor.
Roll forward 50 years, and now we have a lot more government, a lot more regulations. Thats not great by itself, but the water and air is light years better.
Personally I want the FDA and as many government agencies as possible inspecting my egic components and welcome it. Those guys aren't perfect, but its been shown time and time again, as messed up and as overbearing as governments can be, that is nothing compared to the greed and evil that companies will do for a quick buck if left to their own devices.
I just don't get where this "I hate the FDA" anti-science junk comes from.
I see it differently, as stated in the original post. Big Tobacco (BT) has real scientists, engineers and product developers. They could quickly create vaping products far superior to what we have today on every measure, i.e. performance, quality, cost, reliability, ergonomics, etc.
It doesn't take long to see that the vaping market is segmented, look most markets. Some folks want low cost and convenience, others high performance and versatility. That's why we have Riva's and eGo's and Provaris and Darwins and Reo,s, attys, cartos, cartridges, etc. BT would want to play in all these segments, and, more likely, revolutionize the technology we have today to create new, better and different ways to enhance the vaping experience.
I only see BT as the "enemy" in this one in that their entry will shine a bright light on the industry. As someone said in an earlier post, we have been under the radar for awhile. Once they get in, the regulatory and taxing bodies will go to red alert.
The regs that will govern product specs and requirements, including juices, and the taxes that will effect costs, will impact everybody. You, me, the guys developing the products we have now and the internet retailers we buy from now. In other words, the whole industry, not just BT. Big change is coming. The only way we (vapers) can impact it is with political/legislative involvement.
Vaporers cannot afford to alienate any particular segment at this time. Positive and pro-active efforts should serve us better than attempting to vilify any segment that's bigger and more powerful than us...and that's just about all of them.
Some of the rationale behind the exorbitant taxes (actually, a great amount of punitive damages via lawsuits for much of them) on other tobacco products don't seem to apply to the type and methods by which we use nicotine. One of the justifications behind the tobacco suits was the health care costs borne by government. As well, the public nuisance factors are not the same. Another was unscrupulous tactics used by the tobacco industry in deceiving the public. With no significant burdens on government or the public, the case for a significant degree of taxation is not strong.
If we go forth with a chip on our shoulders, it will certainly get knocked off. There are the concerns of dealing with concentrated nicotine and perhaps a few others. The eliquid industry should address these before the government does.
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I had this same conversation with my local guy in his little shop yesterday. I hope this doesn't come to fruition, but where there is money to be made the big boys are bound to jump on the band wagon as well as Uncle Sam. I like dealing with the little guy, his words to me where "we all help each other out in this industry because we all have the same ultimate goal; for everyone to remain smoke free. There is none of that "cutthroat" competition that is everywhere in other industries and it is refreshing." I happen to like that, a collective conciousness if you will...
Good points. I still think we will still get hammered because of BT's involvement. Whatever you think of BT, the public perception has long been cemented. They could start marketing organic apples from the most pristine environments and people would find something sinister about it. As I said in the original post, I think the best thing that will come out of their involvement is finally getting to the bottom of the health issues related to vaping. And even if vaping gets a pretty clean bill of health and is shown to be the very best smoking cessation method ever (which we already know it is), many will still see it differently. Government will want revenues from it, bureaucrats will want to keep their jobs and have a new product to regulate and the general public will probably see us (smokers/former smokers) the same way: the addicts over there sucking on these strange devices to get their fix....at least they're not stinking the place up now.
Very true. Most of these posts turn into 'I hate the goverment' and it probably turns off 1/2 the people that might otherwise offer support. I think it helps the overall cause if it's kept as apolitical as possible. If possible.
I still don't understand what you want to the juice suppliers to do or how that what would be enforced.
I admire your optimism, but I simply do not trust BT in any shape or form. I'm just considering their history , track record, and the fact that history would repeat itself. As Cool_Breeze mentioned we as vaporers cannot afford to alienate ourselves, absolutely(We can't afford to sit idly by either however. Catch 22). However BT did that to themselves a long time ago with a product that kills, then adding additives to pump up the deadly aspect. That is my fear with this. That our 3-5 ingredients in juice would shoot up to 100, 200, 500 deadly addictive toxins in juice if BT had their way about it. No doubt whatsoever BT would have the power to make something wonderful but based on history it's going to be about profit and the ability to further their consumer's addiction. I for see them pumping out more e-ciggs that are already available at gas stations or something a couple steps above, but only last a week. Then you have to buy a new battery, carto, atty, ect ect. Hey, I hope I'm wrong here about this. It would be way more awesome if BT turns around and revolutionizes e-ciggs in a manner where it stays cheap, gets better, and they exclusively work with safe ingredients in juice. Even then, I wouldn't be comfortable giving them another dime for a long time, but I'd be glad they turned their act around to help others.
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Juice - reality is we are putting a chemical into our bodies.
While there are many holes in the FDA/Food situation, any American who has ever traveled to smaller/poorer countries and saw first hand how food.water is made available to consume makes me very happy the FDA exists.
When I got my first Joye 510 it came with some French Pipe juice which I liked very much. I was a noob and had no clue that it was Dekang and the juice was made in china. I liked that taste, and the price is insanely cheap; but I have fear of putting china-made juice into my body, so I do not buy it. I am not a chemist, I have no clue to the POSSIBLE danger level; so I just get the juice from American companies who (they tell me) make it themselves using "safe" chemicals.
I truly would have no problem with a formal labeling requirement listing the country of origin of what is inside.
I would have no problem with the FDA visiting anyone selling ejuice to make sure their site is clean and safe.
I know when I go out, I rarely see any other vaper. I mean it's SO rare that when I do see another vaper, I notice.
How about others?
How many times a week do you see another vaper?
While there are many holes in the FDA/Food situation, any American who has ever traveled to smaller/poorer countries and saw first hand how food.water is made available to consume makes me very happy the FDA exists.
When I got my first Joye 510 it came with some French Pipe juice which I liked very much. I was a noob and had no clue that it was Dekang and the juice was made in china. I liked that taste, and the price is insanely cheap; but I have fear of putting china-made juice into my body, so I do not buy it. I am not a chemist, I have no clue to the POSSIBLE danger level; so I just get the juice from American companies who (they tell me) make it themselves using "safe" chemicals.
I truly would have no problem with a formal labeling requirement listing the country of origin of what is inside.
I would have no problem with the FDA visiting anyone selling ejuice to make sure their site is clean and safe.
I know when I go out, I rarely see any other vaper. I mean it's SO rare that when I do see another vaper, I notice.
How about others?
How many times a week do you see another vaper?
I see many vapers daily at work, some I shared it with and they shared it with others and so on. The smoke pit outside is nearly empty. It's a beautiful thing. Outside work I see a vaper or two a week that I don't know.
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