the lesser of 2 evils

[wv2win]

ok i think your kinda taking my comment way out of context on this 1

No, your description of vaping vs smoking as both being "evil", one just to a slightly lesser degree, is not out of context at all. One activity takes lives, the other saves lives. Only one is "evil". I'm suggesting you choose your wording, when starting a thread, wisely and with intelligent thought instead of lumping two activities with significantly disparate effects together, under the banner of "evil".

 

[Skinr1]

An addiction isn't always based off of short time limits. Five hours is easy for some addictions but go a week and you might get some itches. I'm not saying it's highly addictive to all but it is to some and it's definitely addictive to most. I classify any addiction as an evil. Coffee included because it can also cause negative side affects like lacking energy in general without caffeine. Along with how bad it can make your body feel depending on the person.

but that's just my opinion not everyone sees all addictions as evil. I definitely see where your coming though i just look at things a little differently.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2

I agree we all look at things differently that's what makes each and everyone of us unique

 

[WelshVapour]

Skinr, you've started a debate.

While some of us don't agree with your wording or even your views and opinion, a debate among ourselves is good, it shows people like me studies that I wouldn't have seen, I read points and opinions I wouldn't have even given a thought to, so good job.

I didn't want you thinking that anyone was against you for what is really an interesting topic regardless of the words used. People are passionate about vaping here and I think forget they can come across as very harsh sometimes.


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

 

[stoopid]

Did you do this much research on cigarettes when you were smoking? Thought so. I used to smoke, but now I vape. Will I quit vaping when it is no longer necessary? Who knows. I like it, and feel it has improved my life tenfold. Lesser of 2 evils, yes, but was willing to kill myself over the more evil one? Vape on.................

have we all really stopped smoking or is it just a fad ?
first let me start by saying that im sure many of us are aware smoking is an evil and extremely addictive habit
and
being relatively new to vaping and off reg cigs for 50 days now I wanted to learn as much about ecigs as I could so I have spent a lot of time reading every article on the web I could find and also different sections of several forums in reguards to various different topics , from problems with ecigs
to possible side effects and so on and so on and so on, the goods the bads , and since there really are no solid long term studies avail on these items are we really
stopping smoking ?? or are we just smoking something else ? its certainly clear that both smoking real cigs and vaping both come complete with their own set of related issues ,as does anything else , I personally know people that have smoked and vaped and they claimed
they felt no different health wise at all , I also know people that smoked tried vaping saw no personal benefits in vaping and went back to smoking...... so clearly both smoking and vaping have their own pros and cons .
so what are we really doing are we stopping smoking or are we just smoking something else instead ?
and are we destined to return to Cigs in the end ???
in all the people I know that have tried vaping and I know many that have tried I can honestly say its been a 50/50 failure/ success rate from what ive seen.
now lets be honest cigs are extremely addictive
several issues ive heard about from friends that have tried vaping but returned to reg smoking
burning throat
dry mouth
heavy feeling in lungs
shortness of breath
acne issues
PG sensitivity
burning nazel passages and congestion

one of my friends said it felt like I was taking a medication with nagging daily side effects vaping that never really went away
so it just wasnt worth it
smoking reg cigs didn't do any of that to me on a daily basis ....so he went back to smoking . and he was vaping and off cigs for 16 weeks .he returned to cigs just this past week and stopped vaping , because he said vaping just wasn't fun anymore and wasn't worth the way he was feeling and now he says he feels fine
now we all know vaping and ecigs use are just like anything else they aren't for everyone

I did recently read an article that was a 2 year study of 500 participants all smokers that were put on ecigs
and over 80% reported failure and returned to smoking so
the question is are we all just looking at ecigs as the lesser of 2 evils for the moment ? because its a popular fad
and someday will we all most likely return to cigs ?
and does anyone really know of anyone that has been successful at stopping smoking cigs and vaping and now do neither ???
also if the FDA or the government suddenly clamped down on ecig use would you return to smoking ?
are ecigs really the lesser of 2 evils and how do we know that for sure ??

any opinions welcomed .

 

[Skinr1]

No, your description of vaping vs smoking as both being "evil", one just to a slightly lesser degree, is not out of context at all. One activity takes lives, the other saves lives. Only one is "evil". I'm suggesting you choose your wording, when starting a thread, wisely and with intelligent thought instead of lumping two activities with significantly disparate effects together, under the banner of "evil".

any addiction can be an evil its all in how 1 looks at it and everyone looks at thing in their own way , clearly you see things differently and disagree to where others do agree , its all in how you see in what you doing is all , do I feel like I traded 1 addiction for another
honestly yeah yeah I do , and I happen to look upon addictions with associated risk factors no matter what they may be as a evil , from a certain point of view ,
but to make the comment to me that this drug works or that alternative works and your 150% sure of this when no concrete evidence exists ...... and lets be honest it doesn't . vaping saves lives , Chantix saves lives nic gum saves lives , I would have to say to you
Prove it . you cant .can you honestly say to anyone you know in 5-10 years nothing will be found in this or that No you cant , we live are lives reading and hearing , and we follow and defend what we feel is best for us however looking at the other side of the coin in reality its an addiction like anything else we do good or bad but if it has a risk its an evil in some form or another , we all know what cig smoking causes its proven , some people smoke wind up with this problem or that problem , or worse ... yep that's proven and well documented ..... however others , smoke all their lives and live to be 90
others never smoke at all and die of cancer at all ages . why does this happen I wanna know that's why I ask for info and try to get all I can ....give my opinions and ask for opinions .
now am I against what your saying or doing no not in anyway because im right here vaping to . I just pray down the road we all don't hear something horrible comes of it ,,,,like Chantix and all that other garbage on the market .

 

[wv2win]

Vaping has already been banned once in this country by the current administration. That ban was over-turned after millions was spent in the legal system. The side wanting vaping banned, spent money provided by us, the vaping taxpayer, in their attempt to stop all vaping nationwide. They are now proposing severe restrictions that will result in a "de-facto" ban. Most media outlets support the current administration and are generating weekly negative articles on vaping, some describing vaping in "evil" terms.

Considering the weight that ECF has on the internet, the last thing we need is snipits of threads on this site used against us, where those who vape consider vaping to be an "evil" activity.

Words can be quite powerful. Choosing thread titles with intelligence and thought by understanding the larger battle that is being played out, is critical. There is nothing wrong with debate. Framing that debate in careless wording is the problem.

 

[Skinr1]

Skinr, you've started a debate.

While some of us don't agree with your wording or even your views and opinion, a debate among ourselves is good, it shows people like me studies that I wouldn't have seen, I read points and opinions I wouldn't have even given a thought to, so good job.

I didn't want you thinking that anyone was against you for what is really an interesting topic regardless of the words used. People are passionate about vaping here and I think forget they can come across as very harsh sometimes.


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

thank you , I don't claim to be perfect with words I just write what I feel , and im always open to debate on anything because it opens up many doors of information and learning .

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

in all the people I know that have tried vaping and I know many that have tried I can honestly say its been a 50/50 failure/ success rate from what ive seen.

Fact: With my friends and a non profit vape prog I run the success rate is 83%.

now lets be honest cigs are extremely addictive

I can go hours and hours comfortably without a vape. Couldn't do that 1 hour with analogs. I find the most "addictive" part of vaping is the hand to mouth habit. That's why traditional smoking cessation progs are a major fail.

because its a popular fad

It's NOT a fad to myself and many others. I'm a tinkerer by nature and do enjoy the tech aspects of vaping but I began vaping soley to quit smoking. NO other reason.

and does anyone really know of anyone that has been successful at stopping smoking cigs and vaping and now do neither ???

You're reading the post of someone that's successfully quit both vaping and analogs after smoking 44 yrs X 1 1/2 PAD of VERY strong analogs. Going on 9 weeks and no problems at this point. In regards to the vape prog I run we have a success rate of people quitting both vaping and smoking at 27%- these numbers are not accurate as we only count those that have been smoke and vape free for a period of 1 yr.

 

[nmackan]

No, your description of vaping vs smoking as both being "evil", one just to a slightly lesser degree, is not out of context at all. One activity takes lives, the other saves lives. Only one is "evil". I'm suggesting you choose your wording, when starting a thread, wisely and with intelligent thought instead of lumping two activities with significantly disparate effects together, under the banner of "evil".

I agree. When you have a up bridge over a road you can cross the road on road by taking risks (a car can hit you) or use, up bridge still taking risks (Bridge can fall down by a truck hit too) But you can not not call the bridge passsing lesser of two evils.

 

[wv2win]

any addiction can be an evil its all in how 1 looks at it and everyone looks at thing in their own way , clearly you see things differently and disagree to where others do agree , its all in how you see in what you doing is all , do I feel like I traded 1 addiction for another
honestly yeah yeah I do , and I happen to look upon addictions with associated risk factors no matter what they may be as a evil , from a certain point of view ,
but to make the comment to me that this drug works or that alternative works and your 150% sure of this when no concrete evidence exists ...... and lets be honest it doesn't . vaping saves lives , Chantix saves lives nic gum saves lives , I would have to say to you
Prove it . you cant .can you honestly say to anyone you know in 5-10 years nothing will be found in this or that No you cant , we live are lives reading and hearing , and we follow and defend what we feel is best for us however looking at the other side of the coin in reality its an addiction like anything else we do good or bad but if it has a risk its an evil in some form or another , we all know what cig smoking causes its proven , some people smoke wind up with this problem or that problem , or worse ... yep that's proven and well documented ..... however others , smoke all their lives and live to be 90
others never smoke at all and die of cancer at all ages . why does this happen I wanna know that's why I ask for info and try to get all I can ....give my opinions and ask for opinions .
now am I against what your saying or doing no not in anyway because im right here vaping to . I just pray down the road we all don't hear something horrible comes of it ,,,,like Chantix and all that other garbage on the market .

Vaping has already been banned once in this country by the current administration. That ban was over-turned after millions was spent in the legal system. The side wanting vaping banned, spent money provided by us, the vaping taxpayer, in their attempt to stop all vaping nationwide. They are now proposing severe restrictions that will result in a "de-facto" ban. Most media outlets support the current administration and are generating weekly negative articles on vaping, some describing vaping in "evil" terms.

Considering the weight that ECF has on the internet, the last thing we need is snipits of threads on this site used against us, where those who vape consider vaping to be an "evil" activity.

Words can be quite powerful. Choosing thread titles with intelligence and thought by understanding the larger battle that is being played out, is critical. There is nothing wrong with debate. Framing that debate in careless wording is the problem.

Have you done any research as to the battle being fought since 2009, to keep vaping from being basically banned in this country? Have you read the numerous studies that have been conducted? Here is a partial list:

E-Cigarette Studies & Research | Cig Buyer.com

Based on your comments, there appears to be little that humans do that you would not consider evil: drinking coffee, drinking soft drinks, eating fast food, driving a car, taking antibiotics, etc, etc. They all have side effects and potential for harm. But none of those "evil" activities are under threat of being taken away.

Do you understand the larger issues involved and how "words" used carelessly can have consequences?

 

[Skinr1]

Have you done any research as to the battle being fought since 2009, to keep vaping from being basically banned in this country? Have you read the numerous studies that have been conducted? Here is a partial list:

E-Cigarette Studies & Research | Cig Buyer.com

Based on your comments, there appears to be little that humans do that you would not consider evil: drinking coffee, drinking soft drinks, eating fast food, driving a car, taking antibiotics, etc, etc. They all have side effects and potential for harm. But none of those "evil" activities are under threat of being taken away.

Do you understand the larger issues involved and how "words" used carelessly can have consequences?

ok #1 exactly why are you attacking me is it because I have a different opinion then you or maybe is it because im alittle skeptical ? I never 1 time claimed to know everything about vaping in any way , however I do know this 1 point you made sticks out you made the open statement vaping saves lifes
Prove it please . cause if you can i would really be interested in seeing your personal proof and im certain theres a million people standing behind me wanting to see the same thing because all of us want that help and the proof .
please share .many of us are doing this praying it will work , praying nothing will be found in the long run . but you made a wild boast , if you have concrete evidence that no one has seen long term evidence that will give us all 100% positive support i would pay you for said information today .i am considering this an open andvery informative debate and maybe we can all learn something but if your gonna make and press wild boasts please share your concrete evidence .clearly you fail to realize im sitting here with a PV in my hand prob just like you
and i wanna learn and see every last thing i can about it there is nothing wrong with that . so being a skeptic is natural cause there is nothing long term proven .

 

[WelshVapour]

Have you done any research as to the battle being fought since 2009, to keep vaping from being basically banned in this country? Have you read the numerous studies that have been conducted? Here is a partial list:

E-Cigarette Studies & Research | Cig Buyer.com

Based on your comments, there appears to be little that humans do that you would not consider evil: drinking coffee, drinking soft drinks, eating fast food, driving a car, taking antibiotics, etc, etc. They all have side effects and potential for harm. But none of those "evil" activities are under threat of being taken away.

Do you understand the larger issues involved and how "words" used carelessly can have consequences?

I personally came to vaping on impulse with no research other than being told it's safer and contains less contaminants than a conventional cig.

I don't deny words are powerful wv2win, I don't think anyone can especially when used by media to attack the very thing you're fighting for. I just think (and don't take this as a personal attack on you cause you've opened my eyes to yours and many others cause, signed up to CASAA by the way, thanks for that) but rather than pointing out the wording used and what it could do to what I'll refer to as "our cause" now, use your knowledge to educate and persuade rather than use what does seem slightly like condescension to push it on home.

Words can be edited if the author wishes right?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

 

[wv2win]

ok #1 exactly why are you attacking me is it because I have a different opinion then you or maybe is it because im alittle skeptical ? I never 1 time claimed to know everything about vaping in any way , however I do know this 1 point you made sticks out you made the open statement vaping saves lifes
Prove it please . cause if you can i would really be interested in seeing your personal proof and im certain theres a million people standing behind me wanting to see the same thing because all of us want that help and the proof .
please share .

1. I am not attacking you. I am strongly disagreeing with your inaccurate and less than well-reasoned use of the term "evil"

2. When my doctor (and hundreds of other doctors based on my research) tells me that my stopping smoking will lengthen my life, I consider that a "life saving/lengthening" change brought about by vaping. He also (like many other well-respected doctors) believe that vaping is basically harmless, especially compared to smoking

3. I find it disquieting at best, to see that you cannot or choose not to respond to any of the other points of my post other than whether vaping saves lives. Your unwillingness or inability to understand how the use of the word "evil" to describe vaping is inappropriate and damaging is unfortunate.

4. Your admission that you have done no research on vaping, speaks volumes. You present yourself as wanting to have a discussion on the merits of vaping but do not appear to have any interest in doing the research which would lead any reasoned person to the conclusion that categorizing vaping as evil makes no sense.

5. You appear to have no interest in the bigger picture of how vaping is under serious threat and that the words we use when discussing vaping can be used to our detriment.

Discussing the plusses and minuses of vaping is fine. Using highly negative terms that are grossly inaccurate, especially under the current attacks on vaping, is not.

 

[Skinr1]

1. I am not attacking you. I am strongly disagreeing with your inaccurate and less than well-reasoned use of the term "evil"

2. When my doctor (and hundreds of other doctors based on my research) tells me that my stopping smoking will lengthen my life, I consider that a "life saving/lengthening" change brought about by vaping. He also (like many other well-respected doctors) believe that vaping is basically harmless, especially compared to smoking

3. I find it disquieting at best, to see that you cannot or choose not to respond to any of the other points of my post other than whether vaping saves lives. Your unwillingness or inability to understand how the use of the word "evil" to describe vaping is inappropriate and damaging is unfortunate.

4. Your admission that you have done no research on vaping, speaks volumes. You present yourself as wanting to have a discussion on the merits of vaping but do not appear to have any interest in doing the research which would lead any reasoned person to the conclusion that categorizing vaping as evil makes no sense.

5. You appear to have no interest in the bigger picture of how vaping is under serious threat and that the words we use when discussing vaping can be used to our detriment.

Discussing the plusses and minuses of vaping is fine. Using highly negative terms that are grossly inaccurate, especially under the current attacks on vaping, is not.

soooooo your ultimate conclusion is to just run me down because i disagree with you and put words in my mouth i didn't say correct ? and you never once heard me say i did no research at all i openly said i have read and looked into all i can find i direct you to my opening post which you obviously over looked ........
because your a know it all ......OK . cool
yet im still waiting for your 100% concrete evidence to your boast . which you still haven't provided .

please note : thank you welsh ...........................
please also note : i am enjoying this debate with you i have learned that your very very passionate about what your doing that's wonderful maybe 1 day i will be to however im not exactly sure i would go to the lengths of running people down or follow what tactics you use to get your point across . to others . in such an aggressive & demeaning fashion . .

 

[wv2win]

I personally came to vaping on impulse with no research other than being told it's safer and contains less contaminants than a conventional cig.

I don't deny words are powerful wv2win, I don't think anyone can especially when used by media to attack the very thing you're fighting for. I just think (and don't take this as a personal attack on you cause you've opened my eyes to yours and many others cause, signed up to CASAA by the way, thanks for that) but rather than pointing out the wording used and what it could do to what I'll refer to as "our cause" now, use your knowledge to educate and persuade rather than use what does seem slightly like condescension to push it on home.

Words can be edited if the author wishes right?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

I can come on a little strong. I have tried to point out that discussing the plusses and minuses of vaping is fine and goes on all the time on ECF, with discussions on side effects, how to deal with them, etc.

I'm just wanting us all to use common sense in our wording when we have these discussions so as not to give the ANTZ's any additional ammunition. I'm "usually" open to suggestions, lol.

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

ok #1 exactly why are you attacking me is it because I have a different opinion then you or maybe is it because im alittle skeptical ? I never 1 time claimed to know everything about vaping in any way , however I do know this 1 point you made sticks out you made the open statement vaping saves lifes
Prove it please . cause if you can i would really be interested in seeing your personal proof and im certain theres a million people standing behind me wanting to see the same thing because all of us want that help and the proof .
please share .many of us are doing this praying it will work , praying nothing will be found in the long run . but you made a wild boast , if you have concrete evidence that no one has seen long term evidence that will give us all 100% positive support i would pay you for said information today .i am considering this an open andvery informative debate and maybe we can all learn something but if your gonna make and press wild boasts please share your concrete evidence .clearly you fail to realize im sitting here with a PV in my hand prob just like you
and i wanna learn and see every last thing i can about it there is nothing wrong with that . so being a skeptic is natural cause there is nothing long term proven .

Go here...E-Cigarette Success Stories
I won't names names but 1 member here was found on the floor of his kitchen 1 1/2 yrs ago. Rushed to emerg and barely made it. Dr said his condition was directly related to smoking. Today the diff in his health is like night and day and his Dr. credits vaping with saving his life. Many other stories such as his.
I am occasionally asked by Doctors and Surgeons to help convert patients that are on their last leg because of smoking related illnesses. Although not always successful I've kept in touch with many of those converts and the positive change has been astounding.

 

[wv2win]

soooooo your ultimate conclusion is to just run me down because i disagree with you and put words in my mouth i didn't say correct ? and you never once heard me say i did no research at all i openly said i have read and looked into all i can find i direct you to my opening post which you obviously over looked ........
because your a know it all ......OK . cool
yet im still waiting for your 100% concrete evidence to your boast . which you still haven't provided .

please note : thank you welsh ...........................

Sorry you are taking it that way. By your own words, you view vaping as "evil". I don't and will disagree with anyone who states that it is evil. I have tried to explain why the wording is very inappropriate, which is the basis of my disagreement. You choose not to respond to that point, as to why it is an inappropriate term and one that can harm the vaping community. I fully understand a spirited discussion on the plusses and minuses of vaping.

 

[EddardinWinter]

The OP asks for proof. Proof is a tricky thing. What we know and what we can prove are often different. Our world is not just facts, numbers, statistics, and studies. Sometimes our personal experience teaches things we cannot quantify...

So here is my story of vaping. Vaping has been a very important thing in my life. I have ADHD, and I refuse to take Ritalin or any of that stuff. I find that will caffeine and nicotine I can manage my runaway energy and lack of focus quite well. Many people who have known me for years would never guess I am ADHD. So I had to keep using nicotine. Smoking was the only way I could have it that satisfied my need for nicotine "on demand" when I really needed to focus. The gums were ineffective and made me hiccup constantly and want to puke, as did the lozenges. The patches were not effective due to their inability to deliver a hit of nicotine on demand when I really needed focus.

I started vaping in late May 2012. I weighed 268 pounds and was in terrible shape, couldn't breathe well, and had trouble sleeping. I had been smoking for 26 years at the time. I started with a humble eGo starter kit. Quickly I got into twists, then clearos, then mods, etc. Along the way, I started feeling better each day.

Today, I weigh 222 pounds (not bad, at 6'2"), can run and play basketball with my teenage sons, and sleep like I always wished I could almost every night. When we play shirts VS. skins basketball, I don't cringe when I have take my shirt off, nor does anyone else. When I started vaping, my breathing improved right away. I was able to start being much more active. This led me to changes in my diet (no sugar, no starches, no processed food) that also improved my health. So, maybe vaping didn't save my life, but it has made it 10X better. Sure, I made good decisions on top of vaping, but I don't think I would have started down this path without that catalyst.

I am passionate about this issue. I want other smokers to see and enjoy the benefits of it. For this reason, I defend my (and others) opportunity to have access to vaping, and suitable places to vape in, with extreme prejudice. I want everyone to feel this good.

Can I prove vaping saved my life? No way. I don't need to, anyway. I know it has made it so much better that I don't worry about proof. I just know it, balls to bones.

 

[EddardinWinter]

I can come on a little strong. I have tried to point out that discussing the plusses and minuses of vaping is fine and goes on all the time on ECF, with discussions on side effects, how to deal with them, etc.

I'm just wanting us all to use common sense in our wording when we have these discussions so as not to give the ANTZ's any additional ammunition. I'm "usually" open to suggestions, lol.

You have done your part to keep it civil. Now the OP needs to meet you halfway. How about it, OP? Wanna address his issue, non-personalized issue, of your word choice of the term evil. It is a valid question of its use in this matter that WV raises...

 

[Skinr1]

ok allow me to respond to that point , perhaps you don't agree with my words , understandable and im sorry if they touched a nerve so to speak but that's just how i view things just like you , its only an opinion nothing more .
you came on alittle strong and yes so did i we can agree to disagree . with each other . again you are very passionate about what you believe and please don't forget i am sitting here with a PV in my hand like i said before maybe just like you are , and just like you i pray it works for me and in the long run nothing bad comes of it . but in my opinion and im saying this is an opinion its still an addiction .