the lesser of 2 evils

[Uma]

If one can do with just a couple of cigarettes (per day) one can skip the complicated and laborious ehookahs

Studies show inhaled PG can cause Nose bleeds and it has nothing to do with sensitivity on skin .

Where be these studies?
Have you seen Robertson study?
Medicine: Air Germicide - TIME
Or here if you don't have subscription
Propylene Glycol (TRUTH) - Electronic Cigarettes

 

[K_Tech]

I don't think you do understand what I'm saying. Nicotine is a treatment for a disease that I have. That disease is covered by ADA. A business cannot discriminate against me based on my disease or the treatment as long as they don't cause undo hardships on the business.
It just so happens that addiction is classified as a disease and protected by ADA. That's not saying a business has to put up with a drunk at work but they also can't decide that recovering alcoholic has to have a martini with the boss to keep their job.

I think I could have a very easy case for nicotine free blood, you can't require no nicotine in my blood any more than you can tell me no mesalamine in my blood. vaping would depend on how reasonable they were.
That's basically what it comes down to, is it reasonable. Is it reasonable to not allow people to vape in the public eye? Sure.
Is it reasonable to make people vape outside where they have enough room to escape smoke? Somewhat.
Is it reasonable to put vapers, many who are recovering smokers, in a small space where they will have no option but to inhale smoke? No.

If a city does it no you do not have a choice to go somewhere else. Your beaten down attitude of "just not vape" is not a choice.

It would be a rough row to hoe because of the ANTZ brainwashing of the world and nothing more. Require the same of any other non-smoker, including nicotine (NRT) users and you would have every ANTZ organization in the world coming down on them.

First:

Federal Law

The federal government has passed laws protecting everyone from pregnant women to older workers from discrimination. Employers also cannot discriminate based on personal characteristics such as weight, marital status or disability. However, there is no federal law declaring smokers as a protected class. In addition, some states offer no legal protection for smokers, allowing employers to establish any kind of anti-smoking restriction or policy they want without the fear of a discrimination claim.

Second:

Anti-Smoking Policies

Under federal law, employers can prohibit smoking in the workplace. They can also prohibit it anywhere on the grounds, including outside of buildings, in the parking lot or even in employees’ vehicles. Federal law also lets employers refuse to hire smokers and ban employees from smoking outside of work hours, including in their own homes. In addition, federal law allows employers to prohibit “smoking residuals,” which means employees cannot come to work with their clothes, hair, briefcases or purses smelling like cigarette smoke.

And lastly, even though nicotine addiction IS recognized by the AMA, so is ...... addiction. Your employer is under NO obligation to allow you to satisfy your addiction at work - be it alcohol, ...., ......, or nicotine. IF you're lucky enough to be allowed to vape by joining the smokers, it's still YOUR choice to put that addictive substance into your body. The employer is doing smokers and vapers a favor by permitting them to satisfy their cravings at work.

Simple solution? Put on a patch or quit vaping. And yes, it IS a choice. As long as there are medically recognized alternatives to smoking and vaping, you will always have a choice.

 

[Tim Koehle]

I am in my 40s ... fads are not my thing.

I have not smoked cigarettes in a month ... so far, I prefer the lesser of 2 evils

i feel ya!
"aint got time for dat''

congrats on the one month ...ya got me by three weeks! =)

 

[Myk]

First:



Second:



And lastly, even though nicotine addiction IS recognized by the AMA, so is ...... addiction. Your employer is under NO obligation to allow you to satisfy your addiction at work - be it alcohol, ...., ......, or nicotine. IF you're lucky enough to be allowed to vape by joining the smokers, it's still YOUR choice to put that addictive substance into your body. The employer is doing smokers and vapers a favor by permitting them to satisfy their cravings at work.

Simple solution? Put on a patch or quit vaping. And yes, it IS a choice. As long as there are medically recognized alternatives to smoking and vaping, you will always have a choice.

Smokers, smoking residuals, smoke, smoke, smoke.
VAPING IS NOT SMOKING!
As I said, you have been browbeaten by the ANTZ to consider yourself a smoker and thus a lesser human than all the rest.
If you want to be a second class citizen for the rest of your life because you smoked and now you pretend to smoke that is your choice. Don't drag the rest of us down with you.

Federal law also prohibits discrimination because of disease or treatment for disease. Some doctors prescribe smoking for Ulcerative Colitis. I'd like to see how those two laws clash.

You might want to reread my own personal situation until it sinks in before you defend the ANTZ and tell me I have a choice again.
If I had a choice I would be a year nicotine free and have probably quit vaping by now with my ecigs stashed away in a box and some nicotine stashed in the freezer for when I failed at quitting again. That was my choice, one that I had yanked away.
Keeping a nicotine addiction without the act of smoking for me is going to result in smoking. If it was as simple as wearing a patch patches would have a better than 3%-7% success rate.

For others, you're telling them the choice is to go without nicotine or to smoke. Considering that tobacco companies were successfully sued for giving non-addicts the choice of smoking, I don't see how a company who gives recovering addicts that choice would be immune from responsibility.
The only reason they would be immune is the ANTZ attitude that lumps vaping and nicotine in with smoking, which you seem to embrace.
Vaping with the smokers makes as much sense as wearing a patch or chewing gum with the smokers.

 

[jwhyde1]

Im riding that wave

 

[danca90]

Well, if studies do end up saying it's bad, at least we have the option of stepping down slowly to zero nic, then just chewing gum for flavor.

 

[greatmathias]

Ecigs have been nothing but positive for me. Went from 10 to 15 dollars a day for analogs to about 10 to 15 dollars a week. I can breath now. I have more energy. I can smell again. I can taste again. I dont smell any more. I can vape indoors most places. Plus I now have a really cool new hobby.

 

[K_Tech]

Smokers, smoking residuals, smoke, smoke, smoke.
VAPING IS NOT SMOKING!
As I said, you have been browbeaten by the ANTZ to consider yourself a smoker and thus a lesser human than all the rest.
If you want to be a second class citizen for the rest of your life because you smoked and now you pretend to smoke that is your choice. Don't drag the rest of us down with you.

Federal law also prohibits discrimination because of disease or treatment for disease. Some doctors prescribe smoking for Ulcerative Colitis. I'd like to see how those two laws clash.

You might want to reread my own personal situation until it sinks in before you defend the ANTZ and tell me I have a choice again.
If I had a choice I would be a year nicotine free and have probably quit vaping by now with my ecigs stashed away in a box and some nicotine stashed in the freezer for when I failed at quitting again. That was my choice, one that I had yanked away.
Keeping a nicotine addiction without the act of smoking for me is going to result in smoking. If it was as simple as wearing a patch patches would have a better than 3%-7% success rate.

For others, you're telling them the choice is to go without nicotine or to smoke. Considering that tobacco companies were successfully sued for giving non-addicts the choice of smoking, I don't see how a company who gives recovering addicts that choice would be immune from responsibility.
The only reason they would be immune is the ANTZ attitude that lumps vaping and nicotine in with smoking, which you seem to embrace.
Vaping with the smokers makes as much sense as wearing a patch or chewing gum with the smokers.

I must apologize for making it seem that I was equating vaping with smoking, I certainly do not, if that were the case, I'd still be puffing away merrily.

But please don't insult me. Let's keep this a friendly discussion.

That being said, is it physically possible for you to obtain the nicotine you need via a delivery method other than vaping (or smoking, which is a foul, disgusting abomination upon the face of the earth)? Just a yes or a no.

 

[nopatch]

Where be these studies?

Here it is Subchronic nose-only inhalation study of p... [Food Chem Toxicol. 1989] - PubMed - NCBI

Exposure to the above concentrations of propylene glycol caused nasal haemorrhage (I.e bleeding) and ocular discharge in a high proportion of animals, possibly as a result of dehydration of the nares and eyes.

Have you seen Robertson study?
Medicine: Air Germicide - TIME
Or here if you don't have subscription
Propylene Glycol (TRUTH) - Electronic Cigarettes

Yes, Pg is used in hospital settings as air germicide.The concentrations(In Air) used are about 1/100 of what is experienced in vaping(For PG liquids) .

 

[GREEN ZOMBIE]

I see this for exactly what it is to me, A replacement to smoking, I have no intentions of giving up nicotine, Just as I had no intentions of quitting smoking, In fact I loved smoking, I wasn't trying to quit, I just happened upon vaping, I tried it and never looked back, I like it.

As for health risks, I really don't care, Because what I do know is this, I haven't felt this good in almost 20 years, I would rather die feeling like this then die broke while suffering and stinking of tobacco smoke, I keep vaping because I like it, and how I feel now, Not because it's cool, But with the money I have saved not smoking I got some nice gear, Where as before I had absolutely nothing to show for my habit...

So you ask is it better for me than smoking? Well I feel better and have more money... (scratches head) You ask is it a fad, will I go back to smoking? Well I have lots of gear to sell now if I go back to smoking... (Looks around) All I have to show for 20 years of smoking is one half empty Bic lighter, Anyone wanna buy it?

I tip my hat to anyone that has tried or is still trying to get of analogs, In the end all that matters is that we do our best to do what's best for us, and just be there to support the ones that want more from life and are struggling to get there, I don't care if they vape, my hand is reaching out to everyone that is struggling!!!

I didn't realize I was so sick till I felt better, But I do now!!!

Hope your friends try again and find something that does work for them. And hope you stick in there as well.

 

[Myk]

I must apologize for making it seem that I was equating vaping with smoking, I certainly do not, if that were the case, I'd still be puffing away merrily.

But please don't insult me. Let's keep this a friendly discussion.

That being said, is it physically possible for you to obtain the nicotine you need via a delivery method other than vaping (or smoking, which is a foul, disgusting abomination upon the face of the earth)? Just a yes or a no.

We're not in a court of law and if I ever am in a court of law and a lawyer tries to manipulate me by insisting I be limited to a yes or no answer you can bet I'll be locked up for contempt because of my contempt for such actions.

I don't know if the nicotine from patches would be enough to keep me from flaring, I haven't tried them recently. Patches are what the studies were done with. The gum may be unkind enough to the GI tract that it is not good or the direct delivery may be better, I don't know.
I do know dosing with the patches is not accurate as it requires skin moisture which is not a constant. I also know without the act of smoking but the nicotine addiction I would eventually be back to smoking.
I KNOW THIS from experience. It is a highly predictable outcome for over 93% of the smoking population who want to quit and can't using standard NRT.
You cannot deny this.
Since it is so predictable and since there is precedence that the tobacco companies can be held responsible for "making people smoke" when they actually made that choice themselves how can you say that someone who gives ex-smokers who have found a way that works for them the options of ways approved by ANTZ that fail over 90% of the time while denying them the way they know works?

If it was my employer telling me to inhale smoke I would try a patch while at work. I'd be reasonable.
I see no reason from the companies who push vapers out with smokers (I did see reason from one company reported about here where they added a separate vaping area). There is absolutely no room for reason from governments who pass these laws.

These policies are pushed by the "quit or die" folks and people need to start suing to put an end to it. Shyster lawyers work for free.

 

[Skinr1]

afternoon all .

I have since seen and returned from the ENT .
I under went an exam and a few tests .

I had a nice visit with him he asked a lot of questions and I told him everything I was doing
for the most part the ENT confirmed what my primary said during my recent physical that im in pretty
good shape for my age .
he also made it clear that what has been happening to me is a direct result of a combination of suddenly stopping smoking
symptoms and the use of vaping products .

findings .
issue :
nose bleeds .................... cause excessive drying out of the tissues in the sinus passages and airway .
action : prescribed medicated nasal spray .
recommended use : 7 days
scratchy throat ............... cause excessive drying out of the tissues in the back of the throat and airway .
Action : none taken symptoms have gone away since use of PV ceased .
mouth sores .................. common side effect of stopping smoking .
Action : none taken .
I currently have no known allergies to anything other then 2 medications .
ENT wanted to retest me once he was aware of the products I was using .
Action : I currently have 2 patching on my skin .
he made it clear to me that just because It possible I probably over exposed myself to these products doesn't mean I have an known
allergy to them .
vaping questions : I had asked the ENT various questions about vaping and he pretty much had the same reaction as my primary when I told him ,
Due to the FDA matters concerning the use of those products and since there are No Long term clinical Studies to Back up any said health claims im not at Liberty to advise on the use of those products . either or . at this time . because the use of said products are not endorsed by the FDA . so as for their use or recommendations on use I cant comment .
which I pretty much expected that type of response .of course said questions were asked for gain more knowledge about these products from a Professional not only for myself but also for my friends .
at this time he did advise me to cease all use of vaping products while the tests are done .

now . since I have experienced all this , lost money , time at work , lost time at work , seen doctors to tell me whats happening , gone through tests
and still going through tests , have not vaped in 10/26 . and the problems are slowly going away
I will leave my said opinion as to the " lesser of 2 evils " until the conclusion of these 2 tests .

 

[DC2]

These policies are pushed by the "quit or die" folks and people need to start suing to put an end to it.

I agree 100% and have been saying that for years.
But the main problem is that a person has to be able to prove damages.

 

[DC2]

I will leave my said opinion as to the " lesser of 2 evils " until the conclusion of these 2 tests .

I suppose in your case this opinion might be valid.
Sorry to hear that though.

 

[Uma]

Here it is Subchronic nose-only inhalation study of p... [Food Chem Toxicol. 1989] - PubMed - NCBI

Exposure to the above concentrations of propylene glycol caused nasal haemorrhage (I.e bleeding) and ocular discharge in a high proportion of animals, possibly as a result of dehydration of the nares and eyes.



Yes, Pg is used in hospital settings as air germicide.The concentrations(In Air) used are about 1/100 of what is experienced in vaping(For PG liquids) .

Thanks for the link!
We Vapers know about the dehydrating, and take the steps necessary to alleviate and avoid them. (Those in forums do. Instructions are needed for those vapers out on their own, possibly. But, I imagine most people are already aware of nose sprays, eye drops, Nettie pots, drinking lots of water, just from everyday life experiences)

i wonder, would the rats be smart enough to hit the nose spray bell if a nose spray bell were available? I imagine most people would ring it...

 

[Uma]

afternoon all .

I have since seen and returned from the ENT .
I under went an exam and a few tests .

I had a nice visit with him he asked a lot of questions and I told him everything I was doing
for the most part the ENT confirmed what my primary said during my recent physical that im in pretty
good shape for my age .
he also made it clear that what has been happening to me is a direct result of a combination of suddenly stopping smoking
symptoms and the use of vaping products .

findings .
issue :
nose bleeds .................... cause excessive drying out of the tissues in the sinus passages and airway .
action : prescribed medicated nasal spray .
recommended use : 7 days
scratchy throat ............... cause excessive drying out of the tissues in the back of the throat and airway .
Action : none taken symptoms have gone away since use of PV ceased .
mouth sores .................. common side effect of stopping smoking .
Action : none taken .
I currently have no known allergies to anything other then 2 medications .
ENT wanted to retest me once he was aware of the products I was using .
Action : I currently have 2 patching on my skin .
he made it clear to me that just because It possible I probably over exposed myself to these products doesn't mean I have an known
allergy to them .
vaping questions : I had asked the ENT various questions about vaping and he pretty much had the same reaction as my primary when I told him ,
Due to the FDA matters concerning the use of those products and since there are No Long term clinical Studies to Back up any said health claims im not at Liberty to advise on the use of those products . either or . at this time . because the use of said products are not endorsed by the FDA . so as for their use or recommendations on use I cant comment .
which I pretty much expected that type of response .of course said questions were asked for gain more knowledge about these products from a Professional not only for myself but also for my friends .
at this time he did advise me to cease all use of vaping products while the tests are done .

now . since I have experienced all this , lost money , time at work , lost time at work , seen doctors to tell me whats happening , gone through tests
and still going through tests , have not vaped in 10/26 . and the problems are slowly going away
I will leave my said opinion as to the " lesser of 2 evils " until the conclusion of these 2 tests .

Cool! You're getting to the bottom of it.
Do we Vapers know our stuff or what.
Smoking gives us watery eyes, running noses. Vaping doesn't, minus the nose drip during the body's cleaning phases. Many smokers, had they not ever smoked, would have found themselves in the nose spray, eye drops aisle instead of the cough and Kleenex aisle. It's a totally different ball game, because it's a totally different ball. Same bat, different ball.
I'm so happy to hear your doc also assumes the same as we do.

 

[Skinr1]

I agree 100% and have been saying that for years.
But the main problem is that a person has to be able to prove damages.

I can honestly say I blame a lot on myself for this knowledge wise per say . look before I leap . . it has been made very clear to me that in some people and I do use the
phrase " some people " the products could indeed cause alittle bit more then just your average common issues
and if I had known 2 mon. ago what I know now I do believe I would of I would of approached vaporing a hole different way .
and depending on what these last 2 tests say perhaps not at all . are there pros and cons associated with vaping
oh you bet . and even though as I said I am holding my opinion on the " lesser of 2 evils " I would def say get all the knowledge you can before you jump in . make sure its the delivery system for you . and I honestly think that's good advice .

 

[Caridwen]

With that, closing.

 

[Skinr1]

my test results .
after visiting the doc office and the ENT it was concluded that I do not have a PG allergy nor a sensitivity of any kind . which I knew already
and it was also suggested that something in the juices I was using was causing these adverse issues , and there is nothing seriously wrong with me . both doctors in both offices of course would not comment further siting the FDA matters . basically all they could tell me was that there is nothing wrong with me at all , and the juices was the problem . however it was also suggested " chemical overdose " or
" over exposure " could be the culprit .
since I have stopped vaping the nose bleeds have stopped , the nazel passages have cleared up after using the nazel medication I was given , and the throat issues are all gone
so I have taken these finding and spoken to my buddy at the vape shop and I am starting over however very slowly this time and with a
different juice blend , and ratios .
now after finding out that yes the juices or chemical overdose or over exposure were the culprits in this my opinion on the " lesser of 2 evils " is exactly correct . the chemicals in the juice gave me almost instant health issues that had to be corrected by a doc .
nicotine as we all know is a very powerful drug chemical and
ecigs are no different then any other type of nic delivery device . is it the lesser of the 2 evils ? Yes it is but an evil none the less because
in the wrong ratios or the wrong blends could have adverse health issues . even my buddy at the vape shop said that and he sells these products . but many of us that use these products to help stop smoking have to have something .
its all in whats best for you and if its even for you .

the mod was nice enough to allow me to post this , and it will be moved over to the health section , so further comments can be made there .

 

[Myk]

my test results .
after visiting the doc office and the ENT it was concluded that I do not have a PG allergy nor a sensitivity of any kind . which I knew already
and it was also suggested that something in the juices I was using was causing these adverse issues , and there is nothing seriously wrong with me . both doctors in both offices of course would not comment further siting the FDA matters . basically all they could tell me was that there is nothing wrong with me at all , and the juices was the problem . however it was also suggested " chemical overdose " or
" over exposure " could be the culprit .
since I have stopped vaping the nose bleeds have stopped , the nazel passages have cleared up after using the nazel medication I was given , and the throat issues are all gone
so I have taken these finding and spoken to my buddy at the vape shop and I am starting over however very slowly this time and with a
different juice blend , and ratios .
now after finding out that yes the juices or chemical overdose or over exposure were the culprits in this my opinion on the " lesser of 2 evils " is exactly correct . the chemicals in the juice gave me almost instant health issues that had to be corrected by a doc .
nicotine as we all know is a very powerful drug chemical and
ecigs are no different then any other type of nic delivery device . is it the lesser of the 2 evils ? Yes it is but an evil none the less because
in the wrong ratios or the wrong blends could have adverse health issues . even my buddy at the vape shop said that and he sells these products . but many of us that use these products to help stop smoking have to have something .
its all in whats best for you and if its even for you .

the mod was nice enough to allow me to post this , and it will be moved over to the health section , so further comments can be made there .

Did you end up smoking while not vaping?

If not that should help you take it slower.