I do too.
I view it as an obligation of mine to try to defend the rights of future vapers. I want everyone to experience what I have!
The myth of second hand vape
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I do too.
I view it as an obligation of mine to try to defend the rights of future vapers. I want everyone to experience what I have!
I feel you are speaking to quality of study, but did not previously stipulate this. Nor was 'scientific study' previously stipulated.
I can Follow your Logic Ed. Although that wasn't the Motivation I had for Switching.
For me, it wasn't about being able to use an e-Cigarette Anywhere I wanted to. It was all about a Healthier Alternative to Smoking. And a desire to break the Dependency I had to Analogs.
I hated that Feeling I had of Always having to check if I had Smokes. Or if there was somewhere to Buy Smokes where I was Going? Or was my Lighter Full? And where could I Smoke once I got to where I was going
I guess that is Also what has Shaped many of my Views about Vaping in Non-Smoking Areas. I don't want to EVER get to the Point where I have the Same Feeling about Vaping that I did about Smoking. That I was somewhere that I Couldn't Vape but that I Had To or I felt Bad
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BTW Did you Notice that we have a New Buzz Word. Since it is considered Rude to call Members ANTZ, we are Now referring to them as "The Vaping Police".
I wonder if a Vaping Police Officer has the VPD Logo Inscribed in a Triangle? And if they have Capes.
LOL
Excellent summary and reply. In reading most of these threads on this topic, the main issue always seems to come down to one thing, which I bolded in your post. The Vaping Police on ECF do not believe that any of us are capable of that ability. Thus, they will never see vaping as safe until the "fictional 100% safe" study is provided, even though no other substance on earth has a 100% safe study supporting it's use.
And no one can prove with 100% certainty that men actually walked on the moon. I hope the Vaping Police start exposing that uncertainty, also.
WOW!!!!!
I never expected so many "likes" to be generated from this thread....I feel truly loved.....
But seriously, I appreciate all the participation in this thread. It really prompted me to do further research and think about a subject that I really had given no thought to at all. I certainly didn't research second hand smoke when I smoked. I simply did it. I believed all the "second hand smoke" arguments at face value. I mostly didn't smoke around people because it smells bad. The more I research the more I feel the whole "second hand smoke causes cancer" argument was a bunch of garbage. But that train has left the station.
However in regards to second hand vape, all the calculations and research I have done, only makes me more convinced. I even read up on the stuff that people posted here about diacetyl. Interesting stuff.
So thanks to all participants, even those I vehemently disagree with. This has been and continues to be a good thread. It will burn out eventually, but I was happy to participate.
I never expected so many "likes" to be generated from this thread....I feel truly loved.....
But seriously, I appreciate all the participation in this thread. It really prompted me to do further research and think about a subject that I really had given no thought to at all. I certainly didn't research second hand smoke when I smoked. I simply did it. I believed all the "second hand smoke" arguments at face value. I mostly didn't smoke around people because it smells bad. The more I research the more I feel the whole "second hand smoke causes cancer" argument was a bunch of garbage. But that train has left the station.
However in regards to second hand vape, all the calculations and research I have done, only makes me more convinced. I even read up on the stuff that people posted here about diacetyl. Interesting stuff.
So thanks to all participants, even those I vehemently disagree with. This has been and continues to be a good thread. It will burn out eventually, but I was happy to participate.
I'm thinking it will, as is the intention, dissuade people from wanting to give it a try.
When I came into vaping, I was being sold on notions of:
- you can do it anywhere
- there is no second-hand risk to others
- there are flavors galore
- you can stop smoking by using this
Last one was shot down in 2009 (Soterra judgment), but still I was seeing it in ads in 2011. 3rd one on the list, IMO, is the biggest issue of them all. First and second one deal with what this thread is about.
If you can't do it everywhere, and can only do it where smoking is allowed, plus let's say only flavors available are tobacco and menthol, plus let's add in there that 'no one knows for sure that the health benefits, over the long term, are in fact better than smoking,' then either ask the former smoker in yourself (who used to enjoy smoking) or go ask another current smoker if they would wish to give up smoking if all those things were to be in place going forward.
Me, I would have still given it a try. Then again, I am one who still (moderately) smokes.
I still call them ANTZ. Nobody gets to control my language. I hate how words have been taken from our language by the language
That said, I do try to avoid inflaming others. I don't view you, or anyone else I have seen post on this thread (except that dreadful Statist GM, perhaps) to be an ANTZ. You are just a good man who sees the world a bit differently than me. My joy with vaping and the reasons it drew me in are part of the reason I defend it so passionately. Interesting thing, HOW you came to vaping shaped your views on HOW you vape, just as mine did.
I guess it would mean whatever the standard would be deamed completely safe (maybe something that falls below a certain measurement) by an organization that did an acceptable amount of research.
Is that still completeley safe?
probably not.
Would everyone agree?
probably not.
My intent of "completely safe' in this thread was that the air was below a level that "the people who make the rules" would consider a safe enough level to allow public use with no risk.
WOW!!!!!
I never expected so many "likes" to be generated from this thread....I feel truly loved.....
But seriously, I appreciate all the participation in this thread. It really prompted me to do further research and think about a subject that I really had given no thought to at all. I certainly didn't research second hand smoke when I smoked. I simply did it. I believed all the "second hand smoke" arguments at face value. I mostly didn't smoke around people because it smells bad. The more I research the more I feel the whole "second hand smoke causes cancer" argument was a bunch of garbage. But that train has left the station.
However in regards to second hand vape, all the calculations and research I have done, only makes me more convinced. I even read up on the stuff that people posted here about diacetyl. Interesting stuff.
So thanks to all participants, even those I vehemently disagree with. This has been and continues to be a good thread. It will burn out eventually, but I was happy to participate.
It has been a truly interesting thread. Thank you for starting it, sir.
I can see this with some People.
But is ALL Peoples Motivation for the Person who is sitting next to a Vaper Not being Harmed? Or are there Some who are Looking Out for the Vaper themselves?
Kinda that... "I don't care what you do or if you want to Harm Yourself, just Don't Do It Here"
Do ANTZ Come in Different Shades. Or is there a Singleness of Purpose to ALL ANTZs
That, Unfortunately, is Not Going to Happen in the Same Way that you Experienced it.
One Word "deem" will insure that 2014 is Going to be Much Different than 2013.
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I for one can see Both Sides of this Thread. And also believe that the More that People are Allowed to Express their Views WITHOUT Being Called Names, that the Better We ALL Are as a Whole.
I don't agree with Your Side of this Topic 100%. I think that there are Many Issues and Factors besides just One that going into something as Complex as Health, Safety and Public Policy.
The World isn't Black or White.
Of course. All things change. But I will be roaring my best to check the FDA and their heavy handed tactics. Will it do any good? Maybe only making me feel better for trying to stop the coming tide. That alone is reason enough for me!
as the number of vapers increases ... more ANTZ will start marching ... just as we are working to convert smokers for their own health benefits ... ANTZ are recruiting hate and misinformation.
It's Very Hard to say now that BT has Entered the Fray. And the FDA has not made Much Public recently.
But One Thing I will Guarantee. 2014 is going to be Different than 2013. And I feel where Vapers in the Future will look back and say... "Yeah, 2014 was the Year that it Changed."
IMO, with the bolded part, this is the million dollar question, but also the myth that we are working from. Cause, I truly believe that all fellow vapers get that it is relatively harmless. Yet, I also get that non-vapers have very little idea, and could be swayed by pro-vapers or anti-vapers on any given day.
One day thinking, "my friend who vapes around me is doing great by it. Hasn't smoked in months. I have no issues with the smell, and it really has never bothered me. I hope they keep things things legal forever." And then next day reading an article where not only are these things carrying an unknown risk to the vaper and general public via second-hand vapor (SHV), but they have reported blown up in people's faces. "Man, I gotta go tell my friend to get off of these dangerous things before it kills him!"
What we vapers are actually up against, IMO, is the shaming aspect that is sure to permeate the non-vaping culture, but has already started permeating the vaping culture. By the time I got to smoking (many decades ago), it was already shamed not just by general society, but among smokers. Self shaming like every other smoke. Woah is me, I'm a victim of a disgusting habit, but hey can I bum a couple more for the road?
The public nuisance thing is what we are up against, and not really (really really) the safety concern. On that, they won't likely win. Even if it were banned from all indoor places, and even if over next 2000 years it shows up as 'relatively harmless' on SHV front, once it is banned it won't come back for safety reasons. It'll stay banned because, by then, the public nuisance and shaming thing will be in full gear, and what community of people (made up of vapers and non-vapers) are going to say, "sure, absolutely let's un-ban those things that are safe but that we all know is shameful to be using?"
The FDA doesn't have to 'deem' at all for the changes to happen, it's happening now, at state and county level, and the 'town hall' people only have to justify what they will bring in for 2014 by saying- "we just dont know how safe they are, the FDA are going to blah blah....in 2014/15/16/17"- and with that comes a raft of suppression.
The suppression is happening-by the back door.
Medical insurance
Mortgages
Employment contracts
Will all be affected by nicotine use. Andsmokers Vapers will be left out in the cold.
The suppression is happening-by the back door.
Medical insurance
Mortgages
Employment contracts
Will all be affected by nicotine use. And
That is why I am already starting to vape 0 nic juice. It is going to take a court challenge to reverse the decision to allow for nicotine testing in determinining medical insurance rates and employment contracts. (Nicotine in system does not necessarily mean a person is smoking.....)
Until that court challenge takes place, I plan on being completely nic free by the time my insurance company's enrollment period next year. If nicotine testing is overturned I might go up to 6mg/ml so I can get back some throat hit.
Of course If I could find thorat hit in zero nic juice, I would be in heaven.
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