I Must State This

[riseabovethestorm]

Random thought here, bear with me.

Clones, in my opinion, are not terrible for the manufacturer (in a broad, overreaching way) for a couple of different reasons:
1) They keep the authentic manufacturer honest. If they know that there is someone out there copying their equipment, they have to work all that much harder to keep improving the real product so it is a step above the clones. This might also help knock the clone manufacturers out of the picture because they'd have to keep constantly redeveloping the fake product, which costs time and money.

2) I think for seasoned vapers, it creates demand for the real product. If a clone is an under performing piece of junk, a hardcore user might conceivably then cough up the money to buy the actual device.

I dunno. I kinda pieced that together as I wrote it, so it might not make sense.

In the words of Abraham Lincoln: "This too shall pass." Cloners can't clone forever.

 

[SissySpike]

What I find rather ironic about this is that the e-cig business wouldn't even be around if not for China. So complaining about China stealing our "ideas" is rather funny. I was making variable voltage mods from battery boxes and pots before anyone I knew had them for sale. Should I get all tissy about it that others did the same and made them cheap and available? Should they get ticked when the VV mods started coming from China and copied their ideas, that they copied and made better from guys like me? I guess what I'm saying is that it's an ever evolving industry and you have to stay on top with the next best thing.

Ps. Does anyone make a VV hybrid yet? If not should I patent it and then cry when China does it better for less? Or makes a cheap knockoff, when in fact I wouldn't even be thinking about making the product in the first place if not for China?

If you can make the best product and back it up with the best service people will continue to buy from you, even if there is a cheaper knockoff. I think we need to stop pretending that there would even be a Provari if not for China or for guys like me and so many others who first started experimenting with VV.

Now if a company knows they are selling something that is labeled a provari and isn't then take up that beaf with the company that is committing fraud. That is legit.

I have not yet seen anyone complain about the evolution process the complaint is counterfeiting. They are two separate things entirely.

 

[SissySpike]

Random thought here, bear with me.

Clones, in my opinion, are not terrible for the manufacturer (in a broad, overreaching way) for a couple of different reasons:
1) They keep the authentic manufacturer honest. If they know that there is someone out there copying their equipment, they have to work all that much harder to keep improving the real product so it is a step above the clones. This might also help knock the clone manufacturers out of the picture because they'd have to keep constantly redeveloping the fake product, which costs time and money.

2) I think for seasoned vapers, it creates demand for the real product. If a clone is an under performing piece of junk, a hardcore user might conceivably then cough up the money to buy the actual device.

I dunno. I kinda pieced that together as I wrote it, so it might not make sense.

In the words of Abraham Lincoln: "This too shall pass." Cloners can't clone forever.

So if I steel 20% of your income weekly this makes you a better worker because you will work harder and do more over time to make more money to make up for the money I took from you

 

[Arnie H]

The clone makers cynically assume that people will buy fake status symbols no matter how deceitful this may be. If we really wanted to convince them not to do this, we could simply stop proving them right.

I do not know or pretend to know what the clone makers assume or think. Attacking fellow vapers is not the solution, and if people think this approach is gonna work, I think they will be in for a rude awakening. But that's my opinion of course.

Once again, I say Kudos to Segelei and SMOKtech, and Kidney Puncher, for making affordable vaping gear. Does it make sense to spend 10 times as much money on a US made/designer battery holder (the bottom of your device), and then top it with a $20 dollar Chinese made Protank?

 

[riseabovethestorm]

So if I steel 20% of your income weekly this makes you a better worker because you will work harder and do more over time to make more money to make up for the money I took from you

Let me suffix this by saying that I've never bought a cloned product. I'm just explaining my own particular thought process. You don't have to agree with me or see the logic.

 

[SissySpike]

I do not know or pretend to know what the clone makers assume or think. Attacking fellow vapers is not the solution, and if people think this approach is gonna work, I think they will be in for a rude awakening. But that's my opinion of course.

Once again, I say Kudos to Segelei and SMOKtech, and Kidney Puncher, for making affordable vaping gear. Does it make sense to spend 10 times as much money on a US made/designer battery holder (the bottom of your device), and then top it with a $20 dollar Chinese made Protank?

The question is why do they have to counterfeit? Why not just make their own design? This is the part that gets me, rewarding lack of initiative.

 

[riseabovethestorm]

The question is why do they have to counterfeit? Why not just make their own design? This is the part that gets me, rewarding lack of initiative.

They really do take the idiom of "there is nothing new under the sun" to another level. There are a bunch of manufacturers making tons of mods. Obviously any mechanical will work if you understand the principle (using mechanicals only as an example), why rip off aesthetics? Even if all mechanical tube mods were just plain tubes, the machining would make them stand out on the higher grade models. Rambling again. Point I'm trying to make is this: The cloners shouldn't HAVE to clone. Just make a damn tube with a spring switch that activates the battery.

 

[Wolffy]

Years ago I bought some high end leather furniture. The store I bought it from had a style that was "exclusively" built for their store and their store alone. I paid 30% less for a different "non exclusive" style of furniture built by the same manufacturer using the same quality of materials with the same seating and layout in a style that I liked better.

Can you imagine the cost of a adjustable voltage battery if only one manufacturer made them? I don't mind a 'clone' made and labeled with the brand of that manufacturer. I do mind a counterfeit product branded and claiming to be made by the real manufacturer.

 

[riseabovethestorm]

Can you imagine the cost of a adjustable voltage battery if only one manufacturer made them? I don't mind a 'clone' made and labeled with the brand of that manufacturer. I do mind a counterfeit product branded and claiming to be made by the real manufacturer.

That's the line. Like I said, all mods of a specific types will work on the same principle, as far as branding a clone as authentic, that's the issue. There are only so many things you can do with a tube mod from an aesthetic standpoint (granted, you also don't need to go out of your way to make something look exactly the same), but the branding is an issue.

I think a little money for patents and trademarks (and I use "little" in reference to the revenue of a company like Innokin or Kanger) would go a very long way.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Nowadays when someone mentions their old trusty "eGo" back-up, nobody really cares about the maker or states whether or not it's a clone. The original eGo was not just a "type" of ecig--it was a rather specific thing. Why is it merely a type of ecig now? Because it got cloned incessantly to the point that an eGo is now just a type and a name of a type. The business of cloning is not new, it's just that as more and more products come out, more and more clones come out.

 

[SissySpike]

Let me suffix this by saying that I've never bought a cloned product. I'm just explaining my own particular thought process. You don't have to agree with me or see the logic.

I was just extreaming your logic;-) I apologize if it came off as any other way than friendly banter.

 

[riseabovethestorm]

I was just extreaming your logic;-) I apologize if it came off as any other way than friendly banter.

Oh, no offense taken. Sorry if I came off as defensive, it's just a natural thing for me.

 

[Kropotkin]

I do not know or pretend to know what the clone makers assume or think. Attacking fellow vapers is not the solution, and if people think this approach is gonna work, I think they will be in for a rude awakening.

You think talking about adults as if they were too weak and greedy to cope with the ethical questions of everyday life will work?

I'm sure you mean well, Comrade, but I think you're barking up the wrong tree here.

If people see nothing wrong with buying fraudulently branded products, fine. I'm sure they'll do as they like without anybody's permission. But at least let them own those decisions instead of making up a lot of paternalistic, condescending excuses.

 

[Jayvaps]

Nowadays when someone mentions their old trusty "eGo" back-up, nobody really cares about the maker or states whether or not it's a clone. The original eGo was not just a "type" of ecig--it was a rather specific thing. Why is it merely a type of ecig now? Because it got cloned incessantly to the point that an eGo is now just a type and a name of a type. The business of cloning is not new, it's just that as more and more products come out, more and more clones come out.

I brought that up earlier. No one bothered to reply.

Why does no one scream 'evil clone'? Because an ego battery is not a status symbol. It is not a designer product. There is no 'logo' on it that people like to show off.

clones in this industry are everywhere. From normal batteries, to mechanicals to RBA's and RDA's to clearomizers. If a new product comes out that is drastically different than before, and it works....it gets cloned, and becomes a 'style' or a version or simply just a whole new product line in the industry. Mostly what is different is aesthetics....and a name.

To me, even an exact replica, with logos and all, is simply in the same vein unless it is being sold as 'the real thing'.

As far as all the discussion of patents and trademarks. Sure, a company can Trademark a logo or brand. That will give them some protection. Not from China obviously. Of course, this industry emerged from china(but that is really besides the point when discussing trademarks). Yes, it would make an exact replica with logos and all a piece of 'contraband'

However, patents are a much different area...and the overwhelming vast majority of products in this industry would NOT meet the patent eligibility requirements of being 'new and novel'. Just because you push a button a different way, or the design of your button functions slightly different, that is not necessarily a new and novel product eligible for patent protection. Oh, you push your button from the bottom or the side, or your 'mod' is split up side by side or your attomizer is shaped slightly different?? How is that new or novel under patent protection law? it is not.

The aesthetics of a product most certainly would not fall under any type of trademark or patent protection. So clones that look identical except for logos and are manufactured the same way simply are not going anywhere.

IOW, Logo's can be protected if the designer TM's the logo to an extent, but that is really it. Thus clones are not going anywhere in this industry, and this industry has thrived because of it, not to mention that its initial invention came out of china. So you best get used to it.

 

[riseabovethestorm]

@JayVaps, I was primarily referring to logos, branding and names in my post.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I brought that up earlier. No one bothered to reply.

Why does no one scream 'evil clone'? Because an ego battery is not a status symbol. It is not a designer product. There is no 'logo' on it that people like to show off.

clones in this industry are everywhere. From normal batteries, to mechanicals to RBA's and RDA's to clearomizers. If a new product comes out that is drastically different than before, and it works....it gets cloned, and becomes a 'style' or a version or simply just a whole new product line in the industry. Mostly what is different is aesthetics....and a name.

To me, even an exact replica, with logos and all, is simply in the same vein unless it is being sold as 'the real thing.

As far as all the discussion of patents and trademarks. Sure, a company can Trademark a logo or brand. That will give them some protection. Not from China obviously. Of course, this industry emerged from china(but that is really besides the point when discussing trademarks). Yes, it would make an exact replica with logos and all a piece of 'contraband'

However, patents are a much different area...and the overwhelming vast majority of products in this industry would NOT meet the patent eligibility requirements of being 'new and novel'. Just because you push a button a different way, or the design of your button functions slightly different, that is not necessarily a new and novel product eligible for patent protection.

The aesthetics of a product most certainly would not fall under any type of trademark or patent protection. So clones that look identical except for logos and are manufactured the same way simply are not going anywhere.

IOW, Logo's can be protected if the designer TM's the logo to an extent, but that is really it. Thus clones are not going anywhere in this industry, and this industry has thrived because of it, not to mention that its initial invention came out of china. So you best get used to it.

Sorry I hadn't seen it, but I am happy to know someone else out there was already on the same page (literally and figuratively).

 

[Arnie H]

I want to take a moment, to express my thanks and gratitude to everyone who has contributed to the discussion in this thread and on this subject in general. I also wish to thank the mods for allowing this free exchange of thoughts and ideas to take place.

I love a good debate, especially an intelligent one, and when it is over, my respect for others is INCREASED rather than DECREASED. As someone has already summed up, their is obviously a great divide within the vaping community over this issue. Noobs and vets alike are divided. Their is ranting and raving on either side. Tempers sometimes flare. But I think what we are doing is good. We must discuss these issues, this is the only way we shall reach a resolution, a common ground. We must close this chasm and unite as a community. If we think there is something wrong with clones/duplicates, well then, first we must agree, then we can go together as one body to those who are doing this. Yes, the continued purchase of clones/replicas/or whatever you want to call them, does fuel the "evil clone empire", but if we wish to stop these purchases we need to stop alienating our fellow vapers. It is one thing to seek to educate, it is quite another to attack an entire class or group of people/vapers. Thanks guys.

 

[Jayvaps]

@JayVaps, I was primarily referring to logos, branding and names in my post.

Yes, logos and branding can be protected. Not from China, but again, imo(and this is only my opinion) unless something is being sold as the 'real thing' then the harm to the consumers is minimal as well as the harm to the actual manufacturer. As mostly, we are talking about designer products. And as I said earlier, there will always be the consumers that want...the 'real thing' and will pay for it.

Of course, logos and branding have to be trademarked to even be considered under trademark infringement protections.

This is far from an e-cig thing though. When items are priced high because they are a designer brand, you will have 'fakes', logo and all.

 

[quiter]

Nowadays when someone mentions their old trusty "eGo" back-up, nobody really cares about the maker or states whether or not it's a clone. The original eGo was not just a "type" of ecig--it was a rather specific thing. Why is it merely a type of ecig now? Because it got cloned incessantly to the point that an eGo is now just a type and a name of a type. The business of cloning is not new, it's just that as more and more products come out, more and more clones come out.

Kleenex is a good example of this. At one time a kleenex meant just that, there was no other company that made them. The name itself became associated with facial tissues and now refer to any tissue as a Kleenex. It's not a Kleenex, but we call it one anyway. Now has Kleenex gone out of business? Nope, they continued to stay competitive and innovative.

So for the person who cries about clones, grab a Kleenex not a tissue and wipe your eyes.

It defended in court that you can't use the same name based on a concept called trademark dilution. Of course China couldn't care less about it, so there you go.

Trademark dilution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[riseabovethestorm]

Yes, logos and branding can be protected. Not from China, but again, imo(and this is only my opinion) unless something is being sold as the 'real thing' then the harm to the consumers is minimal as well as the harm to the actual manufacturer. As mostly, we are talking about designer products. And as I said earlier, there will always be the consumers that want...the 'real thing' and will pay for it.

Of course, logos and branding have to be trademarked to even be considered under trademark infringement protections.

This is far from an e-cig thing though. When items are priced high because they are a designer brand, you will have 'fakes', logo and all.

Right. Look at what Chinese companies have been doing do Prada, Gucci, Chanel, and even Nike, Adidas and Reebok for years.