I Must State This

[jac1766]

I still have an issue with the limited production runs of the original mods? Most of these things are damned hard to get a hold of at even retail price!

I just got on a group buy for a neme clone. We ordered it w/o markings. I would prefer if NONE of my clones had serial numbers or " by atmomixani " or " style of mojo " etched in them, but that hasn't been an option til this run. I like the look, feel and function of the nemesis but can't fork over $200.

Oh and the Russians are actually made by one of the original engineers, and better that the kayfun... The kayfun 3.1 was in response to the Russian. The "clone" improved the original...

 

[Kropotkin]

We ordered it w/o markings.

I've ordered two clones without markings, and both times I've made a note in the Comments box, thanking the vender for carrying the logo-free version.

Honestly, I think the vaping world is still small enough that individual efforts make a difference.

 

[Arnie H]

I strongly suspect at least some of the most ardent clone/replica haters, probably own a Chi You or Nemesis Clone themselves. (i.e. unable to find an unmarked version). They just won't admit to it. Reminds me of this clip from Casablanca (which also sums up politics in general, but especially NYC politics of the past):



Ya gotta admire his honesty! The point I am making, is just my personal belief that I consider myself unfit to judge other people for what they do, because I am not spotless. I do not own a cape nor dress in tights, and I do not go about fighting crime. I am not a police officer, FBI agent, or sheriff's deputy.

 

[Arnie H]

What is the pretentious attitude: I think this scene from the movie "Titanic" sums it up, and if you have seen it you will know.

Thomas Andrews: Mr. Lightoller, why are the boats being launched half full?

Second Officer Charles Herbert Lightoller: Not now, Mr. Andrews.

Thomas Andrews: Look, 20 or so in a boat built for 65? And I saw one boat with only 12, 12!

Second Officer Charles Herbert Lightoller: Well, we weren't sure of the weight, Mr. Andrews. These boats may buckle.

Thomas Andrews: Rubbish! They were tested in Belfast with the weight of 70 men! Now, fill these boats, Mr. Lightoller, for God's sake, man!

 

[Thrasher]

Oh and the Russians are actually made by one of the original engineers, and better that the kayfun... The kayfun 3.1 was in response to the Russian.

better check on that again the 3.1 is an update to the kayfun which is already over 2 years old - next revision if you will, the russian didnt come out till 8 months later. the kayfunlightplus is a rebuttal to the 91% having airflow control.

the full size russian and the KF3.1 are identical with the russian having a slightly modified valve for filling.

the 91% took the KF light design and added the 3.1 style airflow controller it was considered better because of this feature, all parts except for this are still 1:1 identical inside.

the KF light + was just released and is still smaller then the 91% by putting the air controller on the bottom and not the side like the 91%

in no way does one actually "vape" better then the other

 

[Kropotkin]

I strongly suspect at least some of the most ardent clone/replica haters, probably own a Chi You or Nemesis Clone themselves. (i.e. unable to find an unmarked version). They just won't admit to it.

Honestly, Arnie I don't think that's at all fair. I think ordinary people make consumer choices based on ethical principles every day of the week - they just don't talk about it unless the topic happens to come up.

I know, for example, that plenty of people (like me) refuse to buy factory farmed meat and eggs because they disapprove of the inhumane practices involved. I know people who have never stepped into a Walmart because they hate the impact big box stores have on local business. There are people who avoid anything containing cocoa harvested by child slaves, and people who only shop at thrift stores because they refuse to support sweatshop labor. Many avoid counterfeit handbags and sunglasses on principle, or regularly buy American goods even if they cost more.

I really don't understand this idea that simply wanting something is so incredibly important and overwhelming that all other considerations instantly vanish. This kind of attitude is understandable in toddlers, maybe, but I don't see why you keep insisting that adults are congenitally incapable of thinking in more sophisticated ways. I think they are - even in rabidly consumerist societies like ours - and I think they do it all the time.

 

[bluecat]

I brought that up earlier. No one bothered to reply.

Why does no one scream 'evil clone'? Because an ego battery is not a status symbol. It is not a designer product. There is no 'logo' on it that people like to show off.

clones in this industry are everywhere. From normal batteries, to mechanicals to RBA's and RDA's to clearomizers. If a new product comes out that is drastically different than before, and it works....it gets cloned, and becomes a 'style' or a version or simply just a whole new product line in the industry. Mostly what is different is aesthetics....and a name.

To me, even an exact replica, with logos and all, is simply in the same vein unless it is being sold as 'the real thing'.

As far as all the discussion of patents and trademarks. Sure, a company can Trademark a logo or brand. That will give them some protection. Not from China obviously. Of course, this industry emerged from china(but that is really besides the point when discussing trademarks). Yes, it would make an exact replica with logos and all a piece of 'contraband'

However, patents are a much different area...and the overwhelming vast majority of products in this industry would NOT meet the patent eligibility requirements of being 'new and novel'. Just because you push a button a different way, or the design of your button functions slightly different, that is not necessarily a new and novel product eligible for patent protection. Oh, you push your button from the bottom or the side, or your 'mod' is split up side by side or your attomizer is shaped slightly different?? How is that new or novel under patent protection law? it is not.

The aesthetics of a product most certainly would not fall under any type of trademark or patent protection. So clones that look identical except for logos and are manufactured the same way simply are not going anywhere.

IOW, Logo's can be protected if the designer TM's the logo to an extent, but that is really it. Thus clones are not going anywhere in this industry, and this industry has thrived because of it, not to mention that its initial invention came out of china. So you best get used to it.

Take the Nemesis by Atmomixami (man tough name to type)... The picture depicted on it is the Death Angel by Anne Stokes. Clearly replicated. Now I do not know if the company has permission to add the pic to its mech or not. I had checked Atmom's website and did not see any copyright info or trademarks.

Technically, that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/87257311503607408/

 

[Arnie H]

Honestly, Arnie I don't think that's at all fair. I think ordinary people make consumer choices based on ethical principles every day of the week - they just don't talk about it unless the topic happens to come up.

I know, for example, that plenty of people (like me) refuse to buy factory farmed meat and eggs because they disapprove of the inhumane practices involved. I know people who have never stepped into a Walmart because they hate the impact big box stores have on local business. There are people who avoid anything containing cocoa harvested by child slaves, and people who only shop at thrift stores because they refuse to support sweatshop labor. Many avoid counterfeit handbags and sunglasses on principle, or regularly buy American goods even if they cost more.

I really don't understand this idea that simply wanting something is so incredibly important and overwhelming that all other considerations instantly vanish. This kind of attitude is understandable in toddlers, maybe, but I don't see why you keep insisting that adults are congenitally incapable of thinking in more sophisticated ways. I think they are - even in rabidly consumerist societies like ours - and I think they do it all the time.

Well sir, I agree with you in part. We cannot know if my statement is true. You will notice though, that I said "I suspect", indicating that I cannot know for certain. I also have never visited China, nor studied it (not modern China), so I think it is unfair to make statements about slave labor in China or other countries based on what may be anti-communist propaganda/western biased news reports. China is a large country with a large population, it is unfair to generalize or say the whole country (as someone stated) is a massive sweatshop named Fasttech. Do you suppose the Chinese people are incapable of making their own decisions? Of deciding their own fate?

Yes, I have my principles too. My statement is a personal one. I cannot/will not pass judgement on other people's choices. For instance, I don't approve of the sale, purchase, and wearing of fur coats. But that doesn't mean I hate the person because of it, nor do I seek to impose my moral code on them. Live and let live. Let us reserve final judgement to God, to whom it really belongs.

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group.

and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery"

In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?"

They were using this question as a trap,in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

(John 8:3-7)

 

[Kropotkin]

Well sir, I agree with you in part. We cannot know if my statement is true. You will notice though, that I said "I suspect", indicating that I cannot know for certain. I also have never visited China, nor studied it (not modern China), so I think it is unfair to make statements about slave labor in China or other countries based on what may be anti-communist propaganda/western biased news reports. China is a large country with a large population, it is unfair to generalize or say the whole country (as someone stated) is a massive sweatshop named Fasttech. Do you suppose the Chinese people are incapable of making their own decisions? Of deciding their own fate?

I never mentioned China particularly. I was talking about American clothing companies (Nike being the most famous of these) that outsource to places like Bangladesh and pay exhausted workers 2 bucks a day. I brought this up simply because clothing is one of the most frequently boycotted industries, and I figured people would understand the reference.

Yes, I have my principles too. My statement is a personal one. I cannot/will not pass judgement on other people's choices. For instance, I don't approve of the sale, purchase, and wearing of fur coats. But that doesn't mean I hate the person because of it, nor do I seek to impose my moral code on them. Live and let live. Let us reserve final judgement to God, to whom it really belongs.

Right. You've said this repeatedly, and I can't imagine why anybody would have an issue with it.

All I'm saying is that people are capable of making choices for all sorts of reasons - a point you seem to be unwilling to acknowledge - and that they already do this regardless of your opinion or mine.

I know you're trying to be generous, but I just don't think you're doing your fellow citizens any favors by implying that they're so childlike and unreflecting that they simply can't help themselves, and will invariably grab at every shiny object that comes down the pike.

 

[Arnie H]

I never mentioned China particularly. I was talking about American clothing companies (Nike being the most famous of these) that outsource to places like Bangladesh and pay exhausted workers 2 bucks a day. I brought this up simply because clothing is one of the most frequently boycotted industries, and I figured people would understand the reference.

Fair enough. Someone, though, did mention China and its "slave labor force", either in this thread or the "China Hate" thread. I do not even pretend to know what is going on in Bangladesh, I do not live there, have not visited, and know nothing of these "exhausted workers" of which you speak. If this is true, well it is a by-product of capitalism, which has its own problems, and which feeds off of poverty or the fear of same.

Right. You've said this repeatedly, and I can't imagine why anybody would have an issue with it.

All I'm saying is that people are capable of making choices for all sorts of reasons - a point you seem to be unwilling to acknowledge - and that they already do this regardless of your opinion or mine.

I know you're trying to be generous, but I just don't think you're doing your fellow citizens any favors by implying that they're so childlike and unreflecting that they simply can't help themselves, and will invariably grab at every shiny object that comes down the pike.

By the gods, where and how am I implying any such thing? I do not understand what you're talking about. Where did I say vapers are childlike? Where did I directly or indirectly say they "could not help themselves"? What I stated was a fact, that unmarked clones may not be available in all cases, and that the purchasers of these devices have no direct control over what's put on them. As I say, a purchase does not necessarily constitute tacit approval of any practice in particular.

I repeat from my opening post, that attacking our fellow vapers, is not the solution in my opinion. It will NOT stop these purchases and only widens the gulf which clearly divides us. And this haughty/snobbish attitude which people are reporting/can relate to, doesn't help the problem.

 

[talbrecht]

This is my feelings on clones. If the original was designed and manufactured in china then I hope they clone the heck out of it because the Chinese mfg's don't have any principles about knocking off everything that they can make a buck with not just in the vaping industry. Now if the Chinese grab up a mod from another country then shame on them and should be scorned because of it, not that it will do one bit of good. As for those that buy knock offs,,, I wish they wouldn't buy them but I sure am not going to get my panties in a wad over some one that does. My self imposed rule about chinese knocking off chinese applies here also. If it is China knocking off China then I don't have a problem buying a clone myself but I am not buying a clone of something creating outside of China.

 

[LeeW]

I have heard the likes of phill (can i taste your juice reviews) say that, he has asked some of the makers of orgianals say that the clones havent hurt their sales.

That being said I will probaly have a k100 or k101 before the ever get the empires back in stock but i would get an empire first if i could. I would like to have both & plan on it eventually.

 

[Kropotkin]

I repeat from my opening post, that attacking our fellow vapers, is not the solution in my opinion. It will NOT stop these purchases and only widens the gulf which clearly divides us. And this haughty/snobbish attitude which people are reporting/can relate to, doesn't help the problem.

At this point I think we've both made our points on counterfeiting several times over, so I'll refrain from repeating myself. You're no doubt a good guy, Arnie - I just happen to think you're wrong on this.

Bangladesh is another matter, though:

If this is true, well it is a by-product of capitalism, which has its own problems, and which feeds off of poverty or the fear of same.

Say it, Comrade!



On this we agree.

 

[Strangebrew]

Yeks!!! My trucks been modified with clones! lol

 

[Jayvaps]

Take the Nemesis by Atmomixami (man tough name to type)... The picture depicted on it is the Death Angel by Anne Stokes. Clearly replicated. Now I do not know if the company has permission to add the pic to its mech or not. I had checked Atmom's website and did not see any copyright info or trademarks.

Technically, that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/87257311503607408/

Interesting that you mention that. Because I was wondering and also looked if they are paying the original artist for the depiction of death angel. If not, I can't see why anyone would get upset about someone else cloning the nemesis, as atmomixami is themselves 'stealing' someone else's art and profiting from it.

I also don't see too many 'TM' s floating around indicating a logo is trademarked in the vaping industry, although I will admit I am fairly new to this community and certainly has not looked too deep into it.

But, if a logo isn't even trademarked, calling an item 'counterfeit' that matches it is an incorrect statement, as legally, even a stateside manufacturer 'cloning' the item would not face prosecution. You need a trademark for trademark infringement to occur.

Now whether THAT would be good for the vaping community or not is a whole different story.

 

[OhmTheWatt]

Take the Nemesis by Atmomixami (man tough name to type)... The picture depicted on it is the Death Angel by Anne Stokes. Clearly replicated. Now I do not know if the company has permission to add the pic to its mech or not. I had checked Atmom's website and did not see any copyright info or trademarks.

Technically, that is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/87257311503607408/

Seems like there could be a meme here.

"Steals artist's original work for logo. Cries when people copy their stolen logo."

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk

 

[bluecat]

Interesting that you mention that. Because I was wondering and also looked if they are paying the original artist for the depiction of death angel. If not, I can't see why anyone would get upset about someone else cloning the nemesis, as atmomixami is themselves 'stealing' someone else's art and profiting from it.

I also don't see too many 'TM' s floating around indicating a logo is trademarked in the vaping industry, although I will admit I am fairly new to this community and certainly has not looked too deep into it.

But, if a logo isn't even trademarked, calling an item 'counterfeit' that matches it is an incorrect statement, as legally, even a stateside manufacturer 'cloning' the item would not face prosecution. You need a trademark for trademark infringement to occur.

Now whether THAT would be good for the vaping community or not is a whole different story.

Yes I spent a bit searching then just gave up. No one even mentions that infringement yet everyone has their panties bunched because China cloned the Nemesis. I would welcome someone to provide a link to state that I am wrong. I am in learning mode and have been for over 1.5 years.

To me I am just not going to spend over 50 bucks on a mod and I haven't spent more than 40 to date. It won't happen. I think it is a rip off selling at 200 bucks for any mod unless is solid gold silver or suck or a hand crafted piece like an Otto Carver. Yes, even the P word is a rip off. Others are free to think differently than me.

Every consumable is "cloned" whether generic or replica. Trademark and Patents protect that. If a business cannot or will not apply for those then that business is fair game. If one has ever watched the sharks.. they won't even deal with someone on a new idea unless they have a patent or such... when they do say they have one, they say very smart person.

I have a slight twitch when I no I am buying a clone. I would rather my mods be free of anything. Everything I have purchased that is a clone has been specifically marked as a clone. The only ones I have been seeing crying about clones are either the owners of the real deal mod... or other clone makers that charge a higher price.

Edit....On the Anne Stoke's pic you can see the copyright emblem.

 

[zahzoo]

The question is why do they have to counterfeit? Why not just make their own design? This is the part that gets me, rewarding lack of initiative.

Since we're mostly talking China... the culture itself has not historically had the concept of branding, trademarking, cloning, counterfeiting, etc... embedded in it. It really is a foreign, new business concept over there.

On the history angle... here's a society that evolved in isolation during most of the industrial age and is now emerging into the global market in recent times. Because of trade embargo's and isolation... technological advancement was attained through acquiring restricted goods and reverse engineering became an art and norm for the Chinese advancement. They wanted what the western world had... but we kept it from them. So they'd acquire it under the table... tear it apart and figure out how to make it.

So their idea innovation was born from copying, emulating western methods to begin with... That in it's self demonstrates the reason things in China work the way they do.

Final note... Mech Mods... There's not much opportunity for patenting any of that. Form & Function... metal battery tube, electrical switch and standard metal pipe threading. There's really no innovative design features to be patented that don't already exist. Copy Rights and Trade-markings though are a viable protection measures... But you have to have the deep pockets to afford Intellectual Property attorneys for enforcement.

 

[thecoronersgambit]

Whoops, botched reply.

 

[Spike64]

Firstly, It has never been my intention to break forum rules but because I can not follow up in my previous threads , I must post this here. If I am banned because of it, well then, I want to at least be given a chance to respond and be heard.

I want it known that if the concept of clones makes you angry, or if you think they are ripping off other peoples work, please, in the name of all that is holy, do not direct your ire towards the purchasers of these items, who are often new vapers, those who simply cannot afford the real things, and those who just refuse to overspend.

Instead this animosity needs to be directed at the clone/replica makers NOT at fellow vapers. This just creates a chasm and alienates others. I personally do not need/want any markings/logo's/ on my devices. The purchasers of these devices have NO CONTROL over what is put on them. By analogy, If you to wish to fight a war on drugs, you need to target the large cartels that are bringing these things into the country, not the poor addicts! Don't arrest the person who recieves and attempts to spend a counterfeit bill (the average person is not a currency expert), instead go after those who are printing these bills up.

The following is purely my take and opinion of this situation which is consistently beaten to death on these forums...

This really is a dog chasing his tail situation...if someone has legal standing to go after a person or company that they believe and can prove has infringed upon their legal rights to create and distribute these devices then they need to pursue a legal remedy...if it's a producer from China that is doing it and the Chinese judicial system wont cooperate, then that's just the way it goes..sorry about your luck....join the multitudes of other companies that are having their purses, watches, etc, cloned and have been having them cloned for decades...I have little empathy for anyone creating 200 dollar+ battery tubes and limiting production to drive up the price....this business practice just fuels the clone market and people will purchase them instead of paying a flipper as much as several times the already exorbitant original price for their version of a virtually impossible to get flashlight tube......as far as the term "counterfeit" goes, it is only a "counterfeit" if the person or company has patented their design and/or trademarked their brand logo....I suspect some may have and suspect some haven't bothered....if not, they should have...because it isn't counterfeit anything as no one actually owns the design/logo...it's literally a free for all in that scenario and they have no recourse...if someone needs to express anger and outrage in just such a case, direct it at those that didnt do what every other business does to protect their physical and intellectual property....no way around it...