They are saying: Stop signing stupid petitions!

[pennysmalls]

Re: Black Market. If there are vape shops in your town get your booties in there and get to know them. Hang out if you can and get to know the other customers and make sure they get to know you. Knowing who you are and building trust that you're legit is going to be important. Put up a flyer in said vape shop for a monthly gathering of vapers in your town now to get together and discuss issues or just sit there and vape at each other but get the beginnings of your own little black group going now. Make connections and build trust before the stuff hits the fan.

Re: Petitions. I sign every single one I come across. I don't care if they're supposedly useless, I want my name on them for so many reasons. Mostly because I can't poke a hot stick in they eye of folks like Glantz.

 

[Stubby]

Whenever you made criticisms of my petition, they were not constructive. Constructive is pointing out what needs to be changed and how. Saying "learn about ST" is not constructive.

Same thing with Mr. Phillips. He may have made some constructive criticisms in a Facebook post in a group that I wasn't a member of at the time, but he has never contacted me directly.

I actually considered making wording changes, but since no one offered to assist, I didn't want to make multiple edits, and at the time over 30,000 people had already signed, I and a few others decided against it.

I was paying you a compliment and saying that you handled this post better than you handled interactions with me.

It didn't take much to find this which is a thread on the CASAA Facebook page in which Carl gave you specific changes you could make to your petition to make it less offensive to actual THR advocates. You where right there in the discussion so it's a bit hard to believe you didn't see it. You are obviously lying when you say you weren't a member at the time and no one offered assistance.


So in the end we have yet another badly written petition (it really is moving towards anti-THR) that misinforms the public about what the real risk are, and in your ignorance, (or is it arrogance) you refuse to withdraw the petition or make changes to it.

Okay, so now we know.

 

[Lessifer]

It didn't take much to find this which is a thread on the CASAA Facebook page in which Carl gave you specific changes you could make to your petition to make it less offensive to actual THR advocates. You where right there in the discussion so it's a bit hard to believe you didn't see it. You are obviously lying when you say you weren't a member at the time and no one offered assistance.


So in the end we have yet another badly written petition (it really is moving towards anti-THR) that misinforms the public about what the real risk are, and in your ignorance, (or is it arrogance) you refuse to withdraw the petition or make changes to it.

Okay, so now we know.

Thank you for finding it so I don't have to do too much digging. His post was made on July 20, my first post in that thread(and that group) was August 16th which was the day I joined, so no, I wasn't a member. I reached out to CASAA when I was writing the petition, and got no response. By the time I was made aware of any objections, which was mid August, there were already 30,000 signatures. As I said before, I discussed the possibility of making changes to the wording with a few other people, and decided against it because changing the wording after so many had signed seemed wrong, and because the changes that were suggested were minor in terms of vaping advocacy(IMO), though they are definitely more significant in terms of THR, which I did acknowledge.

I still don't understand the vitriol from you, are you an ST user and my not promoting ST offends you?

 

[WharfRat1976]

50,000 sigs on a petition to have Judge Boyd removed after her debacle ruling in the infamous Affluenza case. She stepped down so in this case a petition hastened her ultimate removal.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

I few changes could be made in the flyer to improve it.

In the first paragraph of the conclusion you state, "It is NOT the nicotine that kills them, it is all the carcinogens found in tobacco that does". That statement is problematic as it is not the carcinogens in tobacco that kills, but the carcinogens in tobacco smoke that kills. You have fallen into the old ANTZ trick of beginning the statement talking about cigarettes (and really cigarette smoke), then making a leap to tobacco. It is not at all the same thing and yet you are implying that it is. Smokeless tobacco has very low risk at least equal with what we hope vaping has. If you are trying to educate the public about THR that is a definite stumble.

In the last paragraph also has a similar clumsy statement, as does the last myth "We just don't know enough about them".

A few minor changes and it would be up to snuff (bun intended).

I had to cut out and re-word a bunch of stuff to make it fit on a standard page with a big enough font to read...

 

[Jman8]

Okay, so now we know.

Still waiting on those many local successes you mentioned before. Methinks you'll not come up with that list after making it a point to call me out. Now I'm calling you out. Also feeling confident that for whatever local successes you do find, I could probably match it with a list of local failures at ratio of 3 to 1, probably higher.

So, this notion of local successes being numerous is IMO not so grand, and not the magical bullet you are making it out to be, and is arguably on par with successes of petitions considering the idea that success can't possibly mean something monumental has occurred because I'm 100% convinced you won't find that on the local level. Perhaps when we get to the days of the underground market, that'll change.

Also, just to be clear and match my actual level of optimism, I think the free market success of vaping, to date, outweighs all political actions benefiting or hurting vaping. It has taken the genie out of the bottle, spread it worldwide, and it'll be decades or longer, before it has any chance of disappearing from the planet. I also think the national politics in the U.S. are key going forward to how the market is over the next decade, and this does include notion that those politics very much could be creating an underground market where economics of vaping prosper, as they have, in the under regulated / open market.

Except for a few instances, on the local level.

 

[Jman8]

I had not seen the "stop signing stupid petitions" petition from Carl, until today. Makes me want to call him out on what I just listed above. C'mon CASAA leadership (of which I am a member), please point to the dozens of successes that we've accomplished together. I'd like to see that. I've been to CASAA.org and seen it on the site, and that list is, how you say, underwhelming. Sorry to be pessimistic, but feel I'm being realistic. Loved the piece we/CASAA wrote to OMB/OIRA and hopeful that it will have significant impact, though not feeling confident that it will change national politics pre-deeming all that much and will mainly serve as reminder to TPTB that you have a direct hand in creating an underground market.

Success, to me, is found easily in the golden era of vaping, or current free market (minus frivolous lawsuits). As long as that continues, vaping strikes me as successful. I think CASAA has contributed to that, and I think 'stupid petitions' have raised awareness (albeit indirectly) that we are currently experiencing success in the politics of vaping and hope restrictive types fail in their efforts to change that.

All other types of success, as far as I can tell, are overcoming something that anti-vaping types are going for. I.E. - they want to stop selling product to minors, we appease them and call that 'success.' I call that failure on the magnitude of 'worst thing we could possibly do going forward.' Or another example is they want local area ban from vaping indoors, and we mark it as win that certain bars and vape shops in the area will be allowed to have vaping indoors. That's pathetic, and yet better than worst case scenario, on that tangent. Or perhaps best example is opposition wants to ban product altogether and we win by saving vaping and it is now taxed at extra 50 cents per millimeter of eLiquid and we call that success. All these type of things just make the golden era all the more golden, while marking it's visible end. Though it was during golden era that our side (stupidly) agreed to ban on minors and that lead to all the things that contributed to our current downfall. I take great comfort each time I hear of minor use going up. Pleases me much to know those who oppose this are being met with how reality actually works when you resist something and the opposite persists. So minors be partaking in an underground market during the golden era. Ain't life grand?

 

[Stubby]

Thank you for finding it so I don't have to do too much digging. His post was made on July 20, my first post in that thread(and that group) was August 16th which was the day I joined, so no, I wasn't a member. I reached out to CASAA when I was writing the petition, and got no response. By the time I was made aware of any objections, which was mid August, there were already 30,000 signatures. As I said before, I discussed the possibility of making changes to the wording with a few other people, and decided against it because changing the wording after so many had signed seemed wrong, and because the changes that were suggested were minor in terms of vaping advocacy(IMO), though they are definitely more significant in terms of THR, which I did acknowledge.

I still don't understand the vitriol from you, are you an ST user and my not promoting ST offends you?

First off calling you out on your misinformation is not vitriol. That is a pretty bogus claim.

The answer is no, it is not because you are not supporting ST. I call you out because you are essentially anti-THR. You have unwittingly fallen into the trap of supporting the ANTZ agenda.

There is something that I have come to call the "Big Lie", that has been at the heart of anti-THR. In simple terms, it is the lie that all tobacco products are equally risky. Of course the truth is that there is a vast difference between tobacco products, going from vanishingly low risk (ST and Vaping) to very risky (inhaling smoke). The big lie became official government doctrine in I believe it was 1984 (ironic date) when the government mandated warning labels on ST. The big lie has plagued us for decades and has caused the premature death of millions of smokers. The big lie has followed us right into the world of vaping. It is at the core of the anti rhetoric.

Vaping advocacy in recent years has been trying to play a sneaky game. A good segment of the vaping world decided to play along with the big lie with the justification of "We are not tobacco", therefore we are really.... something else (with very vague descriptions on what that something else is). In some bizarre
fantasy the vaping world expected the anti's to play along with this. Many now seem stunned that it isn't working out that way.

I am not sure many understand that the lies we are seeing in regards to vaping have been going on for a long time before vaping ever existed. Just look at the lies that have gone on in regards to ST in the past and it is a mirror of what is happening to vaping today. The antis just changed the name and continued on with hardly a missed beat. The big lie continues.

Instead of educated people on the concepts of THR and attacking the big lie at its source (that all tobacco products are equally harmful), many in the vaping community took the lazy way out and have been playing along with the fantasy that we are not tobacco, and in fact have been trying to distance themselves from tobacco. It is yet another bizarre twist as tobacco isn't the problem to begin with as that is a lie.

Your petition promotes the misconceptions that have plagued us for decades. Why you would think you are actually doing something positive is a bit of a mystery. You really need to think beyond impulsive reactions.

.

 

[Lessifer]

First off calling you out on your misinformation is not vitriol. That is a pretty bogus claim.

The answer is no, it is not because you are not supporting ST. I call you out because you are essentially anti-THR. You have unwittingly fallen into the trap of supporting the ANTZ agenda.

There is something that I have come to call the "Big Lie", that has been at the heart of anti-THR. In simple terms, it is the lie that all tobacco products are equally risky. Of course the truth is that there is a vast difference between tobacco products, going from vanishingly low risk (ST and Vaping) to very risky (inhaling smoke). The big lie became official government doctrine in I believe it was 1984 (ironic date) when the government mandated warning labels on ST. The big lie has plagued us for decades and has caused the premature death of millions of smokers. The big lie has followed us right into the world of vaping. It is at the core of the anti rhetoric.

Vaping advocacy in recent years has been trying to play a sneaky game. A good segment of the vaping world decided to play along with the big lie with the justification of "We are not tobacco", therefore we are really.... something else (with very vague descriptions on what that something else is). In some bizarre
fantasy the vaping world expected the anti's to play along with this. Many now seem stunned that it isn't working out that way.

I am not sure many understand that the lies we are seeing in regards to vaping have been going on for a long time before vaping ever existed. Just look at the lies that have gone on in regards to ST in the past and it is a mirror of what is happening to vaping today. The antis just changed the name and continued on with hardly a missed beat. The big lie continues.

Instead of educated people on the concepts of THR and attacking the big lie at its source (that all tobacco products are equally harmful), many in the vaping community took the lazy way out and have been playing along with the fantasy that we are not tobacco, and in fact have been trying to distance themselves from tobacco. It is yet another bizarre twist as tobacco isn't the problem to begin with as that is a lie.

Your petition promotes the misconceptions that have plagued us for decades. Why you would think you are actually doing something positive is a bit of a mystery. You really need to think beyond impulsive reactions.

.

The vitriol is the condescension and arrogance in your posts.

From what I've read of CASAA's submission to OMB/OIRA, their position is along the lines of "We'll accept the tobacco label, and we've already acquiesced to certain regulations like minor sales ban(even though we may not actually think it's necessary), but please don't apply the rest of the tobacco control regulations, that apply to all tobacco products including ST and other products that we believe to be much less harmful but you(FDA) refuse to acknowledge as such."

I'll admit that it's an interesting approach. Vaping is tobacco, even though it may not contain nicotine, but don't apply TCA regulations to vaping.

I understand how someone could take the logical leaps to classify vaping as tobacco, I just find it easier to take the much more logical step in reasoning that a product that contains no tobacco, is not tobacco, and therefore the tobacco control regulations should not apply. A third, non tobacco, non drug designation could actually lead to beneficial regulation, but I guess we may never know.

 

[MacTechVpr]

It is ultimately frustrating that the very reason tobacco laws exist was to regulate interstate cigarette distribution and sale. The clever sleight of hand, the .......ization of language, to stretch the margins as far as possible is what we've seen as the evolution of that initial premise. Now we face the self-righteous imperative of government that cigarettes are tobacco and therefore any mechanism for delivering it or connected to it is too. Nowhere is this so spelled out in original intent or legislation. Had it been, no reasonable American would have accepted such principles at the time enacted.

Just goes to show that acquiesce to a morphology of implied or inferred semantic corruption you are doomed to misconstruction. This is politics, not lawful exercise. The grey zone, the hidden agenda. The lie that justifies all sin. You have a friend, relative, partner, employee that you give 'em an inch and they take a mile, what do you do?

First, you decide what is reasonable, rational…for you.

Me, for my part, I consider that vaping is protected by both the 1st and 2nd Amendment. Yes. For the former, because it's essential for me to demonstrate how effective and desirable vaping is as an alternative to combustion of tobacco. There is nothing more illustrative than vaping for others, and sharing. It is what we do for xxxx sake. It's a communal activity. And I am devoted to the idea that others should have the opportunity to know the facts. That I should communicate by the most productive means possible. That means vaping to me. That is my right! It includes disseminating the truth about our government's compromised interests in suppressing vaping and my free speech along with it. Which brings me to the 2nd in that this tool is indispensable to the preservation of my health and my defense against government, it's perverse use of language and force to repress me. Who would argue given this that a mod in my hand doesn't explicitly prove that I am free, of both smoking and government? Go ahead and try to take it, either my mod or my gun.

So the second fellow vapers would seem obvious...you send 'em all to hell and do it anyway.

Good luck all.

 

[AndriaD]

The vitriol is the condescension and arrogance in your posts.

100% AGREE!!!

a product that contains no tobacco, is not tobacco, and therefore the tobacco control regulations should not apply. A third, non tobacco, non drug designation could actually lead to beneficial regulation, but I guess we may never know.

And again, absolutely agree. The current debacle is the VERY DEFINITION of thinking "inside the box" because apparently their minds are too tiny to even REALIZE there's anything outside the box. "If it's not medical, well then it must be tobacco. I mean... there just isn't anything else in the universe, right?" Braindead lackwit imbecilic idiots!!!!

Andria

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

I just find it easier to take the much more logical step in reasoning that a product that contains no tobacco, is not tobacco

Exactly! Nicotine doesn't even have to come from the tobacco plant! There's no combustion/no smoke so it's not smoking....

 

[DC2]

So, this notion of local successes being numerous is IMO not so grand

It is my observation that there were a lot of local successes early in this fight.
And the number of successes at the local level is dwindling.

That is, of course, due to mainstream media indoctrination.
Whether they are doing it on purpose, or are simply pawns is open for debate.

 

[MacTechVpr]

There must be something terribly intimidating to government about vaping to have singled us out so prominently among so much enterprise now under attack by the federal bureaucracies. But I don't think it has much to do with the contents of juice or tobacco. So even as I see your point DC I have to differ with you somewhat to say that we are the local success. Each and every one of us that have resolved to take back control of our own lives. Despite the harassment, intimidation and overtly false correlation of vaping to a simplistic dangerous variation of smoking. We hold on to a conviction borne out of personal edification, validation and consequently purposeful motivation. That we choose to think and act as self-empowered individuals; now that...is something for them to worry about. A force and will more pertinent than whatever institution, segment or branch may side with us at any given time. My compliments to each of you, and...

Happy New Year all!

 

[DC2]

There must be something terribly intimidating to government about vaping to have singled us out so prominently among so much enterprise now under attack by the federal bureaucracies. But I don't think it has much to do with the contents of juice or tobacco. So even as I see your point DC I have to differ with you somewhat to say that we are the local success. Each and every one of us that have resolved to take back control of our own lives. Despite the harassment, intimidation and overtly false correlation of vaping to a simplistic dangerous variation of smoking. We hold on to a conviction borne out of personal edification, validation and consequently purposeful motivation. That we choose to think and act as self-empowered individuals; now that...is something for them to worry about. A force and will more pertinent than whatever institution, segment or branch may side with us at any given time. My compliments to each of you, and...

Happy New Year all!

I loved your post...

But I'm not proud to be self-sufficient, nor enlightened.
Mostly, I'm just saddened by the whole prospect of this load of crap we face.

Self-sufficiency will only take us so far as a growing community.
Education, to what extent we can help it take hold, is the winning move in this game.

How to help it take hold is our challenge.
And how to overcome the obstacles to making that happen is one hell of a puzzle.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

There must be something terribly intimidating to government about vaping to have singled us out so prominently among so much enterprise now under attack by the federal bureaucracies.

It's all about money, I in the US it more or less comes down to Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement (MSA) which is a massive amount of money plus taxes too, other places it's money from tax, here in Canada at the gas station by me when I quit a pack of players was 12$. I used to basically give the government 20$ a day, here its basically called a "sin" tax.

20$ a day 365 days a year = 7300$, 7300$ times lets say a hundred thousand smokers is 730 million dollars...

With the pharmaceutical industry and anti-vaping groups saying vaping is as bad as smoking the governement is just looking at it like money lost.

money money money money......

What they are failing to realize is that they will save billions in healthcare costs, the population once they quit smoking will be more productive, I know I can work longer and harder since I quit

 

[AndriaD]

I loved your post...

But I'm not proud to be self-sufficient, nor enlightened.
Mostly, I'm just saddened by the whole prospect of this load of crap we face.

Self-sufficiency will only take us so far as a growing community.
Education, to what extent we can help it take hold, is the winning move in this game.

How to help it take hold is our challenge.
And how to overcome the obstacles to making that happen is one hell of a puzzle.

Trying to educate people that they don't have to be pawns or self-flagellators is probably the hardest thing anyone may ever try to do. People seem to be quite determined to be weak, helpless supplicators of *something* whether it be Big Gov't or religion. Maybe it's just easier to beg for something than to get it for yourself, then if you don't get it, it's *their* fault, not one's own.

Andria

 

[WharfRat1976]

There must be something terribly intimidating to government about vaping to have singled us out so prominently among so much enterprise now under attack by the federal bureaucracies. But I don't think it has much to do with the contents of juice or tobacco. So even as I see your point DC I have to differ with you somewhat to say that we are the local success. Each and every one of us that have resolved to take back control of our own lives. Despite the harassment, intimidation and overtly false correlation of vaping to a simplistic dangerous variation of smoking. We hold on to a conviction borne out of personal edification, validation and consequently purposeful motivation. That we choose to think and act as self-empowered individuals; now that...is something for them to worry about. A force and will more pertinent than whatever institution, segment or branch may side with us at any given time. My compliments to each of you, and...

Happy New Year all!

Name another multi billion dollar and growing industry that the Fed could sink their teeth into. The problem with any government is it is a machine and once it gets rolling it is virtually unstoppable.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Name another multi billion dollar and growing industry that the Fed could sink their teeth into. The problem with any government is it is a machine and once it gets rolling it is virtually unstoppable.

True that. No such thing as a little bit pregnant with collectivism. It's always a big litter basket.

Has been >>>> Automotive, Agriculture (government ordered)
Will have been >>>>> Truck Transportation, Medicine, Insurance (in process)

We quit smoking. We took the red pill. We're infected with the virus of individual change. We see the adversary and their goals.

We have a government (both parties) that at its center is no longer listening, disregarding us.

Waiting for the inevitable implosion.

Wishing us all good luck this new year. We need it.

 

[Rossum]

Waiting for the inevitable implosion.

"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves"