Things I learned on Twitter... Kids, Parents and Anti-Vaping.
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My mother is one of those parents, but she had some pretty good reasons. My younger sister is vaping with my mother's consent because it was the only thing that stopped her from smoking. When she started smoking, courtesy of friends at school who supplied her with cigarettes, my mother did everything in her power to stop her. I mean everything. She was grounded, had her room and personal things searched, sent to counseling, and even sent to my other sister's house to spend the summer in another state to remove her from her smoking friends. When she got back to school, she got her hands on cigarettes again. Short of removing her from school, there was literally nothing left for my mother to do. Even when she didn't have any money, she was able to get a hold of cigarettes from school. She'd bum one cigarette from each smoker she knew and she'd have nearly a pack full of different brands of cigarettes. When I managed to quit via vaping and my mother saw that it worked, she bought my sister a starter kit. It became harm reduction at this point, since my grandmother recently died of lung cancer.
I can answer the why on the question, rather easily. You may not like those answers, but I would say they are the reality of vaping moving forward.
IMO, the admission of 'not knowing whether vaping (anything) is entirely safe,' with emphasis on entirely, is grounds for 'reasonable regulations.' Yet, we on ECF will answer CTA's as if the whole thing needs to be fought tooth and nail regardless of 'reasonable regulations.'
So, if not entirely safe, then what basis do we have for saying it is okay for anyone to vape? Thus, your rebuttal wasn't answering what I asked (why not allow kids to vape zero nic) but was making larger point of why not allow anyone to vape.
Well, my opinion - As adults we take on the responsibility inherited with not really knowing 100% if vaping is safe. We know it’s ‘safer’ than smoking.
As an adult I don’t want to take on that same responsibility for a minor. In my experience, kids live for the now and don’t give much thought to the long term affects.
I don’t know the long term affects of vaping, do you? I’ll accept the responsibility and the resulting affects for myself though but not for someone else, especially a child.
I don't know if we know this. We think we know. We hope we are right.
And many of us (vast majority) started inhaling (smoke) when we were minors and are alive many decades later, after heavy use/abuse.
Given the bolded part, then we are not much better in our reasoning than that of a child.
A parent is making the same decision for the child as you are making for yourself. Neither knows the long term effects, but there is lots of data (both scientific and anecdotal) to suggest it is very low risk.
IMO, you can't make the case that a child (absolutely) should not, without inherently making the case that regulators are currently making for why adults ought not to be vaping.
That's what I'm saying - I'm willing to take the risk for myself but I'm not willing to take that risk for someone else, especially a child.
That said... If my child was smoking I don't know where I would stand on this subject. Luckily my older children 20 & 17 don't smoke and the 6 yr old has a long way to go before I have to worry about it.
That said... If my child was smoking I don't know where I would stand on this subject. Luckily my older children 20 & 17 don't smoke and the 6 yr old has a long way to go before I have to worry about it.
No - you are wilfully misreading my post. I said "If people come off smoking and start vaping that's one thing", meaning that if you have a tobacco habit then vaping is going to be a step forward. But nothing in this world is entirely safe, which is why I argued "why start an inhalation habit if you haven't got one already?". This is especially so for children - adult people can make adult choices.
If the fdas regulations were about safety rather then money then maybe we wouldn't fight all of them.
As to why shouldn't kids vape..we don't sell non alcoholic beer to children why should we sell vaping supplies. That just leads to more bad publicity when a kid tries to build a subohm with a 18650 from a old laptop and blowing his face off because he thought it would look cool.
Granted not all kids are this dumb but with current generations you can't expect to much from them.
Now if the parents wanted to let the child vape In their home under supervision then no problem, kids can drink alcohol with their parents (atleast in wi) under 18 and vaping is probably a lot less harmful then alcohol. But when the kid is bragging about it or showing it off they just want to be cool, they could care less what happens to them in the future they only see the now. (Their are some kids with intelligence but a majority lack it in this g rated country. If a kid wants to act like an adult, make them get a job and start paying for all their things, then sure let them do what they want, until they know responsibility and can take it they don't get the ability to make their own choices on everything.
Edit: phone really tore up some of my sentences lol
It really is an incredibly awkward situation. It's terrible to condone or support something that has the potential to lead to an addiction with unknown ramifications. On the other hand, I agree with a couple of the other posters in that a child's behaviour is not necessarily indicative of parenting skills, and that it's incredibly difficult to monitor and restrict activities like smoking. I would be absolutely loathe to suggest my child start vaping because I know they smoke, and to then purchase vaping gear for them; however, not supporting their inhalation habit basically guarantees the child will remain with traditional tobacco products as vaping gear is usually too expensive and inaccessible for youths. I'm glad I'm not a parent.
I actually suspect that the increasing popularity of vaping should not impact the way parents have been handling situations like this for thousands of years; do your best to educate and steer your children in the right direction, and hope that they have the sense to limit self-destructive behaviour and make smart decisions regarding issues that matter.
My mother and father are bright, sensible, incredibly grounded, and pretty damn amazing. My mother exposed me to literature and theatre at every opportunity. They supported my love of speaking and music. My mother and I travelled from Australia to Europe when I was 16. I was able to visit Stratford upon Avon, and I'll never forget the Royal Shakespeare Company's performance of Coreolanus. I was school captain and topped five of my six senior subjects. My parents paid for my living and education expenses when I finished school and started studying law at uni. I smoked my first {OTHER STUFF} when I was 13. I drank my first bottle of whiskey around the same time. I lost my virginity at 14. From 15 to 17, my school days regularly started with a stop at a mate's house for a coffee, a cigarette, and {OTHER STUFF}. My parents are not stupid. I don't for one second imagine that they were completely ignorant of my extra-curricular activities, and nor do I believe they knew exactly what I was getting up to. I certainly don't consider their parenting skills relevant to my desire for a little extra fun, and I'm not sure what they could have done to suppress it even if they were completely aware. Perhaps they were lucky and managed to walk the tightrope. Maybe they knew exactly what they were doing, and what I was doing. Regardless, they are excellent parents, and I still got my nose involved in less than legal pursuits.
I am currently living in Korea, and vaping, while not as prevalent as in the States and Europe, still suffers at the hands of ignorance and media misinformation. Several schools in my area recently made announcements to their students that left them with the impression that electronic cigarettes are as harmful as traditional cigarettes, or near enough to it that the distinction is not worth making. The ramifications of good intentions spliced with half-truths and unfinished leaps of logic should be obvious, coming from such an institution of authority no less; students that smoked will continue to smoke, big tobacco will continue to bully them for their lunch money, and the dissemination of bull.... will continue.
I can also understand that ignoring the uptake of vaping by teens would be an unthinkable choice for parents and government organisations alike.
Marketing and education tactics for traditional tobacco products are simple and usually relatively truthful. The line is very clear. Vaping on the other hand, a term that my spell check does not recognise, is completely new ground for authority figures that are trying their best to guide our children to live healthy, successful, happy lives.
It's pretty damn difficult.
I actually suspect that the increasing popularity of vaping should not impact the way parents have been handling situations like this for thousands of years; do your best to educate and steer your children in the right direction, and hope that they have the sense to limit self-destructive behaviour and make smart decisions regarding issues that matter.
My mother and father are bright, sensible, incredibly grounded, and pretty damn amazing. My mother exposed me to literature and theatre at every opportunity. They supported my love of speaking and music. My mother and I travelled from Australia to Europe when I was 16. I was able to visit Stratford upon Avon, and I'll never forget the Royal Shakespeare Company's performance of Coreolanus. I was school captain and topped five of my six senior subjects. My parents paid for my living and education expenses when I finished school and started studying law at uni. I smoked my first {OTHER STUFF} when I was 13. I drank my first bottle of whiskey around the same time. I lost my virginity at 14. From 15 to 17, my school days regularly started with a stop at a mate's house for a coffee, a cigarette, and {OTHER STUFF}. My parents are not stupid. I don't for one second imagine that they were completely ignorant of my extra-curricular activities, and nor do I believe they knew exactly what I was getting up to. I certainly don't consider their parenting skills relevant to my desire for a little extra fun, and I'm not sure what they could have done to suppress it even if they were completely aware. Perhaps they were lucky and managed to walk the tightrope. Maybe they knew exactly what they were doing, and what I was doing. Regardless, they are excellent parents, and I still got my nose involved in less than legal pursuits.
I am currently living in Korea, and vaping, while not as prevalent as in the States and Europe, still suffers at the hands of ignorance and media misinformation. Several schools in my area recently made announcements to their students that left them with the impression that electronic cigarettes are as harmful as traditional cigarettes, or near enough to it that the distinction is not worth making. The ramifications of good intentions spliced with half-truths and unfinished leaps of logic should be obvious, coming from such an institution of authority no less; students that smoked will continue to smoke, big tobacco will continue to bully them for their lunch money, and the dissemination of bull.... will continue.
I can also understand that ignoring the uptake of vaping by teens would be an unthinkable choice for parents and government organisations alike.
Marketing and education tactics for traditional tobacco products are simple and usually relatively truthful. The line is very clear. Vaping on the other hand, a term that my spell check does not recognise, is completely new ground for authority figures that are trying their best to guide our children to live healthy, successful, happy lives.
It's pretty damn difficult.
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I hear what you're saying, and it is a legitimate point. But only legitimate if you stick by the "it's inherently risky for me to be using an eCig" assertion. If, on the other hand, you find yourself debating the risks with non-vaper or ANTZ-like person, and saying it is rather harmless, then I would think it is plain hypocrisy to turn around and use that "too risky" assertion as it relates to all other people.
Hence, if a regulator comes out and says, "we want to regulate these things and curtail all usage because 'no one knows long term effects of these devices,' then I would think you'd support that regulation, as it would be reasonable.
As vaping community on the whole supports bans to children, due to health concerns, I don't think it is huge leap to support curtailing all adult usage, due to same health concerns.
Yet, I see many on ECF and elsewhere who downright refuse any sense of curtailing adult usage, and who either downplay or refute the public health assertions, often with scientific data. Which a kid can just as easily run with in why they feel very okay taking the risk. Kid, like the adult, doesn't know the long term effects and is very okay with the short term risk. Especially if they are aware of idea that many of those same adults smoked (heavily) in their youth and are alive many decades later, now bragging about their health, due to vaping.
I didn't misread this point. You do not know for sure that it is a step forward given lack of knowledge around long term effects. You think it is, we all hope we are right about that assertion.
The reasons for starting an inhalation habit are:
- because it can be relaxing / relieve stress
- because it can increase focus / minimize distractions
- because it is cool / fun
- because friends are doing it and are seemingly okay, if not great
- because it may replace another habit that is seen as worse
While you make other points that I would address if desired in this thread, or in PM, I single out this one as it a counter argument to what is raised in OP and is part of the point I am making in this thread.
A step forward is exactly that - a step forward, It has nothing to do with "knowing for sure". In my opinion vaping is a clear step forward from smoking - you may disagree with that but it has been my experience. Please don't say "where is your data?" Where is yours?
You list reasons for starting an inhalation habit. OK. My argument is that if you don't already have an inhalation habit then there is no point in starting one.
And I provided points in starting one.
You started one. What was your reasoning?
You are essentially saying, "okay that I started one. Not okay for anyone else. But okay for me."
I'm not saying that. If I had wanted to say that, that is what I would have said. I started my inhalation habit by smoking tobacco - not a smart move. I still believe that if you haven't started an inhalation habit then it's wise not to, but that's just an opinion.
My main point is not restricting age wise but off of maturity. If a responsible kid who was trying to quit smoking was vaping would be different then a kid trying to be cool and with irresponsible parents that inhibit the behavior. Their are people of legal age who do this as well which is why maturity is more important then age.
But I'm wondering about the (honest) reasoning that went into that starting. Like, did you think it would be fun, cool, helpful? And then wondering why if not a smart move, why you continue to this day?
To me, reality is people will start this for the reasons I stated before, and perhaps others. And will continue it because at some level they honestly enjoy it. Thus, there is reasoning not just in starting, but in continuing that isn't all about 'some problem' or 'something is wrong.'
In most threads on ECF, inhalation enjoyment is taken for granted if not promoted/celebrated. Thus, we have dual feelings, it would appear on our own habit. For others, who may just be starting, we want them to only listen to the downsides that may be entirely personal to us. Yet, part of shared reality is those who are potential users or just now starting, are aware of the positive stuff and in their own way, wish to be part of that in way that works for them. It may end up not working at all for them, but that initial desire and first few trials is something that is their decision. However, and IMO this is a huge deal, it matters greatly how rest of society is viewing the action. Is it rather trivial, and not all that significant in terms of harm? If yes to that, then I say count on lots of people getting into the habit, and finding all the good stuff you and I enjoy and dealing with their own 'problems' in way that can likely be addressed by the many that have come before them.
I honestly don't have an opinion on whether kids "should" or "shouldn't" vape. I just know some of them will. And I still don't understand the problem of kids vaping zero-nic. I get the political problem of kids vaping nic, even while I question the veracity of that issue.
I appreciate you taking the time to help me understand with your response, but that response actually is a reminder of why no one ought to vape. Which, of course, is debatable.
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