Titanium wires

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Rossum

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cmoke and Ros, you have to worry a lot about kanthal oxides and all metal oxides in general.
Including titanium? Because I can say this for sure: At the same temperatures (glowing orange), titanium wire forms a heck of a lot of oxide, some of which comes off the wire spontaneously, while Kanthal forms almost none, and what Kanthal does form seems almost impossible to remove from the wire.

Of course both oxides are more-or-less irrelevant if we take your advice and don't torch or dry-burn our wires because the wires will never get hot enough to forum them. The thing is, I would like to get more than one use out of a coil, which means I want to dry-burn it to clean it, and my initial experiments indicate dry burning titanium produces totally unacceptable amounts of titanium dioxide. I would also prefer to use a "micro coil" (really a contact coil), a geometry that unoxidized wire seems unsuitable for.

As for bio-compatibility of Kanthal: We're not making implants out of it, we're using it as a heating element.

FWIW, I didn't start experimenting with titanium wire because I was worried about safety with Kanthal; I wasn't and I'm still not. I started experimenting with it because I was interested in making less massive coils that would heat up faster. So far, I've not succeeded in making anything that works as well as a micro-coil made out of Kanthal. But I'm not done trying yet.;)
 

imeothanasis

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I would like to take this conversation step by step cmoke, so I only have a simple question for you. After your answer we can continue our conversation:

Will you eat and drink from oxidised pans and bottles and if not, why?

Imeo, I can tell you that NOBODY tells me what to worry about! Worrying about assumptions is for weak people.

And yes, I did my homework and found all the information on the internet that makes you worry so much. But they tell us nothing about the true risk of vaping with torched Kanthal (or titanium) wires at all. Your comparison with rusted pans are misplaced metaphores, or in the best scenario it is just some juvenile attempt of comparing two different things scientifically.

Funny that you are the one who mentions the FDA. You should know better. The FDA does not need scientific proof to ban vaping, they only need people like you who spread unmotivated allegations over the vaping community. You know very well that your assertions will remain unproven for many years to come, and in the meantime serving the lobbies against vaping very well.


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imeothanasis

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Ross, you seem like a clever person. So:

Because you want to run for more time your coil, you have to burn it? That means that you use unhealthy methods just because you dont want to change your coil?
Also, if you dont want to change it, why dont you clean it with a toothbrush and water?

As for biocompatibility, why do you think that we put titanium implants? Why dont we put kanthal or nichrome implants?

Including titanium? Because I can say this for sure: At the same temperatures (glowing orange), titanium wire forms a heck of a lot of oxide, some of which comes off the wire spontaneously, while Kanthal forms almost none, and what Kanthal does form seems almost impossible to remove from the wire.

Of course both oxides are more-or-less irrelevant if we take your advice and don't torch or dry-burn our wires because the wires will never get hot enough to forum them. The thing is, I would like to get more than one use out of a coil, which means I want to dry-burn it to clean it, and my initial experiments indicate dry burning titanium produces totally unacceptable amounts of titanium dioxide. I would also prefer to use a "micro coil" (really a contact coil), a geometry that unoxidized wire seems unsuitable for.

As for bio-compatibility of Kanthal: We're not making implants out of it, we're using it as a heating element.

FWIW, I didn't start experimenting with titanium wire because I was worried about safety with Kanthal; I wasn't and I'm still not. I started experimenting with it because I was interested in making less massive coils that would heat up faster. So far, I've not succeeded in making anything that works as well as a micro-coil made out of Kanthal. But I'm not done trying yet.;)
 
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Cmoke

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Actually I do use frying pans that rust like hell. As used by many professional kitchens all over the world, the famous De Buyer pans are made from pure steel (not stainless) and need an occasional seasoning treatment were heat, some oil and some rubbing is applied to remove most of the oxidation. If not treated well, these pans become rusty and need to be seasoned again. The same goes for the iron woks used by billions of people in the Asian world for thousands of years. If these pans are not handled correctly, the food may get a slight taste of iron/rust. I believe this is more of a culinairy concers than a health concern. At least the FDA has no problem with it.

I don't like to repeat myself, but your comparison between pans and vaping coils is a very weak one. The amounts of oxidation in pans is much larger than on our tiny coils, the type of metal is different, and our food is usually eaten and not inhaled..

I have a question for you too: why do you keep telling us that we should focus on the facts, while in the meantime you haven't given us not a single fact? Why do you keep repeating that Kanthal and Nichrome are dangerous, without giving any facts to support that statement?
 

imeothanasis

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my comparison with food is because if you avoid eating on rusted pans then you have to be double careful when you inhale rust cmoke. The human breathing system is much more sensitive than our stomach.

Also, you eat on rusted pans? Other people eat on pans like this? Maybe they keep their water on bottles like this? So maybe we have to stop listening to scientits when they tell us to use biocompatible materials? Maybe we have to start eating from rusted spoons too, from rusted plates etc.?

Do we really have to care about what Asia people eat and if they eat from rusted pans? Do you think that a lot of people have the knowledge to do the right thing? Do you thing that if we search the internet we will not find all the evidence about rust and human health? Do you think that all the crap that some people sell to you are all of them ok? Why do you think that scientists search for biocompatible materials? Maybe because they dont have work to do? You try to convince all people here that scientists are a bunch of silly people that say nonsense?

I thought you were asking for science's facts all these days and now your examples are about asian people and how they treat themselves? Arent your arguments very weak now?

Now, lets talk about facts. I have given you a lot of facts (maybe they are not facts for you), I also told you to search to the internet about rust and human health and biocompatible materials. You didnt find anything about this stuff? Maybe I have to put links for you? I can do that no problem. But I thought that I was talking to people that have a p/c to their houses, not to an old man that doesnt know how to push the start on a p/c.

You read my previous posts, didnt you? If yes, can you please tell me why we use biocompatible materials for implants? Why do we put water on glass or SS or titanium bottles? Why we keep our pans in good condition? Why the sellers of SS pans tell us to clean them well without abrasive materials? Can you tell me why we dont make iron spoons? Why do we inhale medicines from biocompatible bottles? Why do we keep our vaping liquids inside biocompatible materials and not inside rusted kanthal bottles? And so many other why and why and why.

Also think more about why you accepted all the previous vaping stuff like oxidised mesh and oxidised wires. Maybe because you thought they were safe or because a lot of people vaped like that? Dont you want facts for what others suggested you to vape? You only want facts on what I suggest you?

One last question. Lets say that all people were vaping titanium all these years and I was coming here to tell you that rusted kanthal (that is an alloy of iron, aluminium etc) is better or equal to titanium, wouldnt you tell me that I am an idiot?
 
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Rossum

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Imeo, I think you'd get a whole lot further if you tried to convince people that it was possible to get a better vape using titanium than by spreading unfounded fears about "rust", which is generally considered harmless -- unlike titanium dioxide, which is an IARC Group 2B (suspected) carcinogen. Oh, and you see what I did there? I provided a link which backs up my statement.
 

ZeroOhms

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I was going to keep my mouth shut on this but...

I burn my coil to clean them because I am simply too lazy to clean them properly and change them often. After using them for a while, I start to see the rust forming on them. And I say to myself, "Self! that can't be good for you. Get your lazy .... off the chair and change it"
I am sure I am not the only person who went through this. Now, I am not a scientist and don't know the bits about the metallic composition stuff but what I see is what I see. And common sense tells me that it can't be good for me vape on rusted coil.

Now, ESG and Imeo brought Ti coils to the market. It may/may not make a difference but it is an alternative OPTION. I am glad that modder like Imeo is trying to improve our vaping experience by bringing different OPTIONS to the market. Unless we continue to try out different options, the vaping community will not improve. Why bash him for this?

We have exchanged enough "theories". How about some feedback from those who USED them?!
 

Rossum

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I don't think anyone is bashing him for bring titanium wires to market. Heck, I was intrigued by the prospect of using titanium myself.

I just think it's wrong for him to impugn the use of Kanthal without providing a shred of evidence that it's in any way harmful -- and simply saying "Rust is bad" isn't evidence.
 

imeothanasis

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Imeo, I think you'd get a whole lot further if you tried to convince people that it was possible to get a better vape using titanium than by spreading unfounded fears about "rust", which is generally considered harmless -- unlike titanium dioxide, which is an IARC Group 2B (suspected) carcinogen. Oh, and you see what I did there? I provided a link which backs up my statement.

But I dont want to convince people just to make money Ros. I want to convince them about their health. I dont make any money from titanium wire sales.:)

Ok, now that you found the link about titanium (if you burn it of course, something that we MUST NOT do), why dont you find a link about kanthal and nichrome oxides? Because we dont argue here, we try to find the best for our health

As for the evidences you want to hear, did you read my last big post? Do you want to discuss with all of us some or all of them?
 
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Cmoke

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my comparison with food is because if you avoid eating on rusted pans then you have to be double careful when you inhale rust cmoke. The human breathing system is much more sensitive than our stomach.

Also, you eat on rusted pans? Other people eat on pans like this? Maybe they keep their water on bottles like this? So maybe we have to stop listening to scientits when they tell us to use biocompatible materials? Maybe we have to start eating from rusted spoons too, from rusted plates etc.?

Do we really have to care about what Asia people eat and if they eat from rusted pans? Do you think that a lot of people have the knowledge to do the right thing? Do you thing that if we search the internet we will not find all the evidence about rust and human health? Do you think that all the crap that some people sell to you are all of them ok? Why do you think that scientists search for biocompatible materials? Maybe because they dont have work to do? You try to convince all people here that scientists are a bunch of silly people that say nonsense?

I thought you were asking for science's facts all these days and now your examples are about asian people and how they treat themselves? Arent your arguments very weak now?

Now, lets talk about facts. I have given you a lot of facts (maybe they are not facts for you), I also told you to search to the internet about rust and human health and biocompatible materials. You didnt find anything about this stuff? Maybe I have to put links for you? I can do that no problem. But I thought that I was talking to people that have a p/c to their houses, not to an old man that doesnt know how to push the start on a p/c.

You read my previous posts, didnt you? If yes, can you please tell me why we use biocompatible materials for implants? Why do we put water on glass or SS or titanium bottles? Why we keep our pans in good condition? Why the sellers of SS pans tell us to clean them well without abrasive materials? Can you tell me why we dont make iron spoons? Why do we inhale medicines from biocompatible bottles? Why do we keep our vaping liquids inside biocompatible materials and not inside rusted kanthal bottles? And so many other why and why and why.

Also think more about why you accepted all the previous vaping stuff like oxidised mesh and oxidised wires. Maybe because you thought they were safe or because a lot of people vaped like that? Dont you want facts for what others suggested you to vape? You only want facts on what I suggest you?

One last question. Lets say that all people were vaping titanium all these years and I was coming here to tell you that rusted kanthal (that is an alloy of iron, aluminium etc) is better or equal to titanium, wouldnt you tell me that I am an idiot?


Wow.. this is a lot of questions (I counted 28) for someone who wants to "take this conversation step by step". It appears to me that most of your questions are rhetorical, and not seriously directed to me, but only intended to make your point. Repetition of the same statements over and over again is a well known technique used by people who have no solid arguments to make their point. Do you mind if I respond only to your non-rhetorical questions?

I also do not want to respond to your questions about our rusty pans. I already made my point about it being an incorrect comparison, and that was all I had to say about it. Now what is the point you want to make with your rusty pans?? It is you who brought it up you know, not me..

By the way, I think it is rather tasteless how you speak of other people. Do you really think that you are a better and smarter person than all Asians and old people that do not have a PC?? This would tell us a lot about you. It is exactly that attitude, present in all your posts throughout this thread, which makes it impossible to have a real discussion here: people who do not share your ideas are just plain stupid. That includes me, thank you very much.

I would have liked to have a discussion here about Kanthal and Nichrome wires (being extremely oxidation resistant materials and therefore selected by the industry for all kinds of heating applications such as in ovens, toasters and hair dryers), but I feel that such a discussion will not be possible with your attitude.
 

Jojobo

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They also use Kanthal wire for Pacemaker and ICD leads that, last I checked, were put into the human body. http://www2.sandvik.com/sandvik/097...n=bottom&uid=19ed0bb9dba82803c12573f500324029

Wonder why they don't use Titanium wire maybe because they are not conductive enough. Even though Titanium is a "biocompatible" material, for use in the vaping world and the purpose of vaping the "biocompatible" theory is out the window because you are changing the structure of the material being used.

We must use materials that are healthy for the purpose in which they are intended to be used.

You asked if we want you to provide links that Kanthal is UNHEALTHY for vaping...I say YES PLEASE!!!
 

imeothanasis

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you didnt answer to any of my questions and that means that you dont want to make a conversation that will lead all of us to make vaping a better and safer experience. You only want to support your opinion just for fun and thats a well known technique used by people who have no solid arguments to make their point. So its you my friend that dont answer to me and not me to you. The conversation will not drive anywhere because your intentions are only to argue and not to make serious conclusions about safe vaping.

For the best interest of both of us it would be better for you to stop posting another useless post and also insulting me. I didnt do the same to you.

Thank you for listening to me, and please dont spend my time any more
 
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imeothanasis

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They also use Kanthal wire for Pacemaker and ICD leads that, last I checked, were put into the human body. bottom

Wonder why they don't use Titanium wire maybe because they are not conductive enough. Even though Titanium is a "biocompatible" material, for use in the vaping world and the purpose of vaping the "biocompatible" theory is out the window because you are changing the structure of the material being used.

We must use materials that are healthy for the purpose in which they are intended to be used.

You asked if we want you to provide links that Kanthal is UNHEALTHY for vaping...I say YES PLEASE!!!

and what exactly does this link shows to us jojobo?
and how we change the structure of titanium?
and why we use titanium in vaping in an inappropriate way?
 

imeothanasis

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jojobo, I think that you spend my time here as you did on another forum. If you have any serious facts then please post them. If the only you can provide here is that a wire goes inside human body to make a search and then comes out then your arguments are not serious.

What you have to do is to vape your kanthal and nichrome wires and we will vape titanium wires. Thank you for your input to this matter and have a great day.
 

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imeothanasis

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jojobo, maybe you didnt understand it but you are not welcome here. You are chasing me on all forums just to make trouble. You make new registrations on forums where I have made posts.

Please go elsewhere or I will ask moderators to stop you from posting here.

Dont spend my time, please. We are working here.
 

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soulseek

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Wow.. this is a lot of questions (I counted 28) for someone who wants to "take this conversation step by step". It appears to me that most of your questions are rhetorical, and not seriously directed to me, but only intended to make your point. Repetition of the same statements over and over again is a well known technique used by people who have no solid arguments to make their point. Do you mind if I respond only to your non-rhetorical questions?

I also do not want to respond to your questions about our rusty pans. I already made my point about it being an incorrect comparison, and that was all I had to say about it. Now what is the point you want to make with your rusty pans?? It is you who brought it up you know, not me..

By the way, I think it is rather tasteless how you speak of other people. Do you really think that you are a better and smarter person than all Asians and old people that do not have a PC?? This would tell us a lot about you. It is exactly that attitude, present in all your posts throughout this thread, which makes it impossible to have a real discussion here: people who do not share your ideas are just plain stupid. That includes me, thank you very much.

I would have liked to have a discussion here about Kanthal and Nichrome wires (being extremely oxidation resistant materials and therefore selected by the industry for all kinds of heating applications such as in ovens, toasters and hair dryers), but I feel that such a discussion will not be possible with your attitude.

I dont agree with everything Imeo says but the fundamental arguments he puts forth are correct imho. The comparison with pans isn't ideal but he does have a point. If you're not gonna eat off of a rusty pan, why inhale something off of a rusty coil? The lungs are a much more delicate organ than our digestive system. One counterpoint is that the amount of rust on a coil is minute but that is a moot point. Many of us have cast iron pans and you know from experience that after cleaning it you need to layer coat it with oil or else it will rust within minutes; you don't want to cook in that.

As for Kanthal and Nichrome being resistant to oxidation that is an interesting conversation. However, their uses in these devices is kind of irrelevant as they're not heated high enough to incandescent temperatures and if they are, they don't come into direct contact with your food. Regardless, we've all ben rocking Kanthal resistances in our microcoils and we've seen the gunk gathering on them and the eventual rust; let's not pretend that we haven't ignored these issues until now...
 

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imeothanasis

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guys, please make posts without insulting anyone, dont talk in personal, stay on subject and dont post irrelevant things. We have said that we must not burn metals. If some of you think that titanium is as good as kanthal then vape your kanthal. But the main issue is that we must not burn the wires.

Dont forget the main issue. DONT burn the wires, DONT oxidise them. And please stay on subject! Its easy. If you dont like this thread then please leave. Its not that difficult. Act as adults
 
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