Titanium wires

[Aal_]

Ok so oxides on the side.

What matters now is the answer to this question. If I put a clean non heated kanthal rod in water then I vaporize the water and inhale the water what does this cause?
Same experiment with Ti.

If someone can answer this question then I have what I need to know.

 

[imeothanasis]

you put it very well Jerm
You maybe know that the amount of metals that are enough to cause very big issues to human body are very very small. We are not talking about gr but much smaller. Now imagine what you have vaped all these years

A truer answer to his question would be that there is no evidence that what he's been doing the last couple years has been detrimental to his health. That evidence Bor posted states that both aluminum oxide and titanium oxide MAY be harmful. It doesn't mention the dose for that harm, just that the potential danger is there at a high enough dose.

Just like saying that nicotine can be a very a dangerous poison, can cause either instant death or slow and painful death, it's the dose that makes the poison. Is the amount of oxide we're exposed to from the coil is actually a minute amount that has no effect? From what I've read, we're actually exposed to and inhale aluminum oxide on a regular basis. Is Kanthal use increasing that level in a noticable way?

 

[Jerms]

you put it very well Jerm
You maybe know that the amount of metals that are enough to cause very big issues to human body are very very small. We are not talking about gr but much smaller. Now imagine what you have vaped all these years

Imagine is all I can do, because I have no idea of the amount of aluminum oxide I've inhaled over the years from vaping and from other sources. I can imagine the amount from vaping is inconsequential, based on that people have been vaping with Kanthal and Nichrome for over 20 years and there's been zero reports about harm stemming from that. Of course, that's not proof of anything, but it's enough evidence for me to be extremely skeptical of these claims of danger your making.

 

[xpen]

Well, "may" isn't exactly hard proof, in my book.

Furthermore, are we sure that oxide particles are actually released when we vape?
Our coils are wet with eliquids, thus probably trapping any particles which might be released; evaporation is known to leave (relatively) heavier particles behind - think of distilled water for instance.

But OK, enough of oxides, we're here for the titanium

Curious to learn how many diameters of wire are you planning to stock, and their resistance/mt.

Bor just posted the evidences xpen

 

[imeothanasis]

sure aal. kanthal is not a bio compatible material and is not recommended for anything else except stoves and kichens. You dont need more scientific proof.
Lets keep things simple. Science has do already the research and says that we must not use kanthal because it doesnt suit to our body. So trying to give you more proofs is like asking me to search all over the internet to find the exact reason why a chair with 3 legs is more stable thatn a chair with 4 legs (Thats a fact by the way).
But facts are here. Bor post the facts about oxides and I gave you the facts about bio compatible materials.

I understand that this issue make you feel uncomfortable because you vaped oxidised mesh and you burned you wires in past and you may still do that but you can stop doing this. No reason to keep vaping stuff that is not suitable for humans.
You vaped what you vaped because you heard someone that was burning metals. He didnt know what he was doing to my opinion. Its ok, lets stop it now.

Ok so oxides on the side.

What matters now is the answer to this question. If I put a clean non heated kanthal rod in water then I vaporize the water and inhale the water what does this cause?
Same experiment with Ti.

If someone can answer this question then I have what I need to know.

 

[Jerms]

sure aal. kanthal is not a bio compatible material and is not recommended for anything else except stoves and kichens. You dont need more scientific proof.
Lets keep things simple. Science has do already the research and says that we must not use kanthal because it doesnt suit to our body. So trying to give you more proofs is like asking me to search all over the internet to find the exact reason why a chair with 3 legs is more stable thatn a chair with 4 legs (Thats a fact by the way).
But facts are here. Bor post the facts about oxides and I gave you the facts about bio compatible materials.

I understand that this issue make you feel uncomfortable because you vaped oxidised mesh and you burned you wires in past and you may still do that but you can stop doing this. No reason to keep vaping stuff that is not suitable for humans.
You vaped what you vaped because you heard someone that was burning metals. He didnt know what he was doing to my opinion. Its ok, lets stop it now.

Wow... I just don't know what to say, where to start.... just..... wow. Ok, I'm done for real now.

 

[imeothanasis]

ok, let me say something more about the issue we discuss here because I see that you are really upset and you are afraid that you maybe took the wrong way in past.

I vaped nichrome and kanthal too. I didnt oxidised my wires or vaped oxidised SS mesh but I put myself to the same risk by vaping nichrome and kanthal. But I knew that something was wrong so I decided to search a lot about this. The result is the wires that I made.

What we have to do from now on is to leave all these things to the past and start doing what is needed. I want to be healthy and you want to be healthy too. We want the same things. So I vape not oxidised titanium and I suggest you to do the same. If you still want to vape what you vape until now itsw ok. At least you have the info you need I hope

 

[imeothanasis]

I will stop too Jerm. I really dont want to make anyone feel uncomfortable here. I think/hope that the issue is discussed a lot and people read what they had to read.

You can continue the discussion of course, you are all welcome here. I said what I had to say. Now thread is yours

 

[FatalRabbit]

We all smoked tobacco, and we are all still alive and healthier for having stopped. It's fantastic that something safer than Kanthal or Nichrome has been identified, but that doesn't mean anyone should panic about having vaped from other materials

If anyone is worried about this; if you were experiencing the chronic effects of aluminium oxide poisoning, you would certainly be seeing a doctor by now. The fact that you aren't, probably means you should stop worrying about it.

This is from the National Poisons Information Service Centre in the UK
Aluminum oxide (UK PID)

 

[imeothanasis]

I read another thread on ecf where people are talking about the same issue. They said that I want to make money by these new wires and my intentions have nothing to do with my concern for the health of vapers.

But I dont make any money from these wires guys. Esmokeguru sells them.

Also I am sorry if you got upset. My style is a little hard for some people. I apologize for this. Just do what you think best for your health because e-cigs is all about health.

Have a great night

 

[Ariel_MX]

Excuse this off topic.

As the microcoil theme was touched some posts ago, I remembered about this video:

Isn't this a microcoil?
(from minute 3:53)



Do you remember those old days Imeo? (Jun 20, 2011)

 

[archimede]

ok, let me say something more about the issue we discuss here because I see that you are really upset and you are afraid that you maybe took the wrong way in past.

I vaped nichrome and kanthal too. I didnt oxidised my wires or vaped oxidised SS mesh but I put myself to the same risk by vaping nichrome and kanthal. But I knew that something was wrong so I decided to search a lot about this. The result is the wires that I made.

What we have to do from now on is to leave all these things to the past and start doing what is needed. I want to be healthy and you want to be healthy too. We want the same things. So I vape not oxidised titanium and I suggest you to do the same. If you still want to vape what you vape until now itsw ok. At least you have the info you need I hope

Imeo, this is what i will do, too. Thank you for informing about the oxidation. I like vaping with mesh with a mcrocoil but after all i read on the topic i will quit mesh, stop torching and dry burning my coils. I will try titanium wires, too. Thank you very much for all these information. Maybe it is not the right way but what do you prefer/think for silika or organic cotton for wicking instead of mesh?

 

[MacTechVpr]

Man, I love when Kanthal turns blue with electric pulse oxidation. Apparently Ti does too...

The Oxide Layer, What is it?

Sooner or later, it happens. But it's better when it's done right the first time. Torching just degrades wire with contaminants.

Now what's all this about AlO off gassin'? Any of you experience it? No, prob not, or you'd be vaporized.

(Traces of AlO in vaporization are in the micro gram scale and below NIH published limits of concern, to my understanding.)

Just sayin'.

Good luck.

 

[NahkriinKrosis]

So this + rayon wicks = great success?

 

[Vwls]

You can make tight coils w/o burning the wire.

Absolutely agree - the coil wrapping jigs and in particular the Artistic Wire Coil Wrapping Gizmo (on Amazon for less than $10) make perfect coils every time. But once installed in your atomizer, even these perfectly aligned coils need to be heated to red and perhaps squeezed gently with pliers once or twice in order to ensure even heating across all wraps, eliminate hot spots or legs, etc. And of course the other time we heat coils to red is during dry burning to clean the coil.

This is an issue I am learning (apparently it is better to never heat to red) because of Hexavalent Chromium, which forms when heating metals to a temperature capable of making it glow red. (It's also an issue with mesh oxidation, for those who use gennies with mesh.)

I believe the move to Titanium is intended to eliminate this issue. If so, will we be able to heat our Ti coils to red before wicking, and when cleaning?

Hexavalent chromium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/hexavalentchromium/

 

[Vwls]

Know what would be super handy?

If there was a chart to compare the different titianium wire thickness' resistance to the different gauges of kanthal and nichrome. Kinda like showing the resistance-equivalent. That way if I'm used to using 28ga kanthal, I can immediately know which titanium spool I should be getting.

I posted one earlier in the thread, but here it is again.

 

[TheKiwi]

Ah thank you. So I was right; to get the resistance of a 28ga kanthal, I would need a 33ga-diameter titanium.

I can't be the only one who thinks that's tiny, no?


Burping out loud using Tapatalk

 

[Ryedan]

I've been following this thread for a couple of days now and I've really enjoyed it . Kudos to you Imeo for sharing your concerns and for doing something about it.

I sometimes use SS mesh in Genisis attys. Not too long after I started using this stuff I learned about the dangers of hexavalant chromium. I'm no chemist, but from what I gather that can be produced in small quantities by heating the SS up to red hot and it takes only a very small quantity inhaled to be quite bad for us. That's one reason I stopped torching my wicks and the only reason I am so careful to not overheat the mesh when I pulse out shorts. It is also the reason I figured out a way to take out the wick before dry burning the coil. I then wash the unrolled wick in water, roll it back up again and slide it back in. The process works quite well for me.

I also found the data Borescoped included in post #193. The slightly different wording there and some more reading I've done on aluminum and titanium oxides makes me think titanium oxide is a bit safer in that you would have to inhale more TiO3 to harm you. OTOH, from what I've read about exposure levels that may have caused harm to people in the past, these oxides are a minor concern compared to hexavalant chromium.

Now I have no idea if hexavalant chromium is produced by heating Kanthal red hot, but I believe it can be produced by overheating SS and that leads me to think it can also be produced by overheating Kanthal. I believe safe exposure levels of hexavalant chromium are at least several orders of magnitude less than the oxides in question here and the health consequences are more serious.

I don't know if hexavalant chromium can actually even pass through the oxide layers on these materials. So basically I don't know anything for sure and I know how much the 'devil is in the details', just wanted to toss in my thoughts. If anyone knows more about this stuff and can help educate me, please post (or PM me)

In the meantime, titanium wire sounds like a nice alternative to Kanthal to explore. I see no negatives so far and there may well be a few good positives to it. Works for me

Someone said in a previous post they thought we had a chemist (or something like that) on ECF. The Name 'Kurt' just came to mind.

 

[Ryedan]

This is an issue I am learning (apparently it is better to never heat to red) because of Hexavalent Chromium, which forms when heating metals to a temperature capable of making it glow red. (It's also an issue with mesh oxidation, for those who use gennies with mesh.)

You beat me to it Vwls, LOL . I'm going to have to learn to type faster

 

[Vwls]

Ah thank you. So I was right; to get the resistance of a 28ga kanthal, I would need a 33ga-diameter titanium.

I can't be the only one who thinks that's tiny, no?

Agreed... I also prefer the thicker wire not only for the low resistance, but because thicker wire is sturdier, easier to work with, and holds the shape you give it much better. I was thinking of ordering the .20... Kiwi, you can always make your coils longer (increase number of wraps)?