Titanium wires

[Rossum]

Ok, now that you found the link about titanium (if you burn it of course, something that we MUST NOT do), why dont you find a link about kanthal and nichrome oxides?

There are are no "Kanthal oxides" or "Nichrome oxides". Of course there might be oxides of these alloys' constituent elements, but both alloys are quite oxidation resistant. This oxidation resistance is what allows them to be used as heating elements in contact with air in the first place. Oh, and nichrome can't possibly produce any "rust" since it has no iron in it.

In any case, if you're going to tell us that you believe that vaping using Kanthal or nichrome heating elements is "unhealthy" please tell us EXACTLY what substance or substances you think might be in the vapor that would be harmful, and then let's find out if those substance(s) are actually present, and if they are, in what concentration.

Since I am interested in truth and science, I propose that we approach a neutral party such as Dr. Konstantinos Farsalinos and offer to fund some testing of vapor produced by different coil materials. The materials to be tested should include nichrome, Kanthal A1, and titanium of whatever grade you specify. Each material should be tested both in virgin ("unburned") condition and in a condition that represents a few typical "dry-burn" cycles. That would be six vapor samples that would have to be collected and tested. I am willing to pay for half the cost of the testing (up to 3000,- Euros) if you are willing to pay the other half.

So, are you willing to have your claims that Kanthal and nichrome are "unhealthy" actually put to the test by a neutral party?

 

[LucidAce]

I don't know if it is relevant or not, but I thought it was interesting somebody posted this picture elsewhere recently.

http://i.imgur.com/PUBZg4Jh.jpg

EDIT: I'm trying to add a link to the actual discussion, but I don't think I'll be able to do that on my phone. The person who posted it was wondering if his kanthal coil oxidized so posted the picture to get feedback.

 

[treehead]

Tree, your last post is reassuring But.....

Microfibers of silica, smoke of cotton if it gets burned, and metal oxides are very dangerous stuff. The reason is that breathing human system is very sensitive and its not like our stomach. It can be damaged very easy in short or long terms. We are not only talking for a short amount of time because analog cigarettes dont damage you in a short period of time. Analogs need years to make you feel sick and that is what may happen with all of these ingredients we vape all day. Maybe I am wrong and damage may happen sooner but it will happen. Thats why we have to eliminate ALL the harmful factors of vaping. The factors are: wires, wick, liquids, burn taste. If we eliminate the danger of wire then we have 3 to go. And if we vape tested liquids from serious factories we have 2 to go. (I also vape unflavored liquids because flavor is one more serious factor on vaping but I dont want to say anything about that right now). And if we dont burn cotton (cotton is a material that seems ok if it DOESNT get burned), we have 1 to go. And finally if we can avoid somehow the very harmful burn taste we will have made the perfect smoking habbit.

Raising the temperature to a high level on a metal, you change its structure. Changing its structure means that we are talking about a totally different material. A simple example is the water. The water has 1 molecule of hydrogen and 1 atom of oxygen. The result of this connection is not hydrogen, not oxygen, its water.

If you burn your metals you produce a sooo different material than your original metal. Its like comparing SS and brass witch are totally different materials.

So, we cant risk all the time by inhaling whatever comes around. And if you notice, we are not just risking, we already know that oxides are dangerous and very harmful. Internet is your guide on this. We dont live at 1920 where we trusted the proffesionals that most of them were ignorant. We have via internet all the info we need.



ps........... guys, dont ask me about facts, because you ask me to give you 1000 links about metal oxides and biocompatible materials. You can find them very easy by yourself

I couldn't agree more brother . I'm sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting we be more lenient, I can see how it could be taken that way. For the record, we should always research and make sure something isn't harmful because like you said, us vapers are inhaling the stuff all day. There's no doubt in my mind that titanium wire is a much safer alternative for a metal coil, especially if not dry burned. I was just comparing the mesh, silica, and cotton wicks from a medical standpoint, because I think it's fun .

But I totally hear what your saying Imeo, we should NOT be relaxed about any old thing we vape on, it can even be dangerous if not looked into. I make a habit of thorough researching the empirical/scientific information of everything new in the vaping world, simply because it's fun to me, and of course I want myself (and ECF) to stay healthy and away from danger. I really appreciate the effort your putting in to eliminate all health risks associated with vaping! I fully support that, and I think titanium wire will certainly be a safer alternative to the coils we have currently. I've been making my own liquid recently for the same reason you vape unflavored , I only use U.S. made 100% Organic and pharmaceutical grade Vegetable Glycerine (Essential Wholesale & Labs), as well as U.S. pharm. grade nicotine, and organic flavorings from organic ingredients I pick out myself! I even like unflavored every now and then myself, VG tastes pretty good by itself (I know I'm weird ).

Much respect brother, for the record I humbly agree; I don't think we should just vape anything, I think we should research the heck out of whatever we're inhaling scientifically, and definitely don't take it lightly. Hope I didn't sound like I was against anyone, I was simply stating some facts about the different wicks.

 

[treehead]

There are are no "Kanthal oxides" or "Nichrome oxides". Of course there might be oxides of these alloys' constituent elements, but both alloys are quite oxidation resistant. This oxidation resistance is what allows them to be used as heating elements in contact with air in the first place. Oh, and nichrome can't possibly produce any "rust" since it has no iron in it.

In any case, if you're going to tell us that you believe that vaping using Kanthal or nichrome heating elements is "unhealthy" please tell us EXACTLY what substance or substances you think might be in the vapor that would be harmful, and then let's find out if those substance(s) are actually present, and if they are, in what concentration.

Since I am interested in truth and science, I propose that we approach a neutral party such as Dr. Konstantinos Farsalinos and offer to fund some testing of vapor produced by different coil materials. The materials to be tested should include nichrome, Kanthal A1, and titanium of whatever grade you specify. Each material should be tested both in virgin ("unburned") condition and in a condition that represents a few typical "dry-burn" cycles. That would be six vapor samples that would have to be collected and tested. I am willing to pay for half the cost of the testing (up to 3000,- Euros) if you are willing to pay the other half.

So, are you willing to have your claims that Kanthal and nichrome are "unhealthy" actually put to the test by a neutral party?

Iron isn't the only metal that can rust, the Nickel in Nichrome will also rust, especially when in contact with liquid (acidic e-liquids) and extreme heat. I've used both Kanthal and Nichrome alot, and Nichrome definitely oxides almost immediately (it turns black after basically one dry burn session), however it's designed so that oxide layer protects the inner layers like a skin (and some Nichrome does in fact have iron in the mix). Kanthal on the other hand straight up rusts like any other iron alloy, after about a month of vaping and dry burning, usually it's basically covered.

I'm not saying that either ones dangerous or picking "sides", I'm just pointing out the *real empirical facts on the alloys, that's all. It's really easy to find the substances in Kanthal, Nichrome, or Tianium by just an intelligent google lol. Check out the Material Safety Data Sheets, wikipedia, credible scientific material sites etc. I can tell you now (I've looked into everything, and for all three metals the risk is pretty negligible, BUT of course we all want the safest metal possible, even if it's only a slight advantage, such as the hypoallergenic properties of Titanium, or even it's renound resistance to oxidation.) that basically all there is to research is the effect from the oxides each produce from bonding with oxygen and the heat stress. I certainly haven't found any other catalysts for any of the coils, that actually change the elements affect on the respiratory system.

All three oxides are basically not a great risk (under normal circumstances), the long term chronic inhalation of the oxides are comparable to those that work around sawdust all day. Unless your actually allergic to any of the metals, then it's basically the physical or mechanical irritation resulting from the matter being in your lungs (if any). Literally microscopic abrasions (assuming there aren't any processing chemicals/substances, and all wires are truly and only what they claim to be) are the main negative effects. The effects can range from minor asthma/weezing, to non-cancerous lesions, either way you won't be seriously damaged for life in any vaping situation.

HOWEVER, Titanium (empirically/scientifically) is the best bet for oxidation resistance, as well as being safer when accidentally inhaled. So why wouldn't you use the medically safer wire, even if only a slight improvement? Plus it looks like it kicks ....! That heat up time, and low resistance appear to be amazing. And titanium is used in prosthetic body part replacements, dental applications, and many other medical practices because it's such a robust and neutral metal. I'd imagine if it's used as someones hip in the wet environment of the human body over decades, then it can't be all that bad. (HOWEVER, I know that can be a different situation. It could be a different type of titanium, or covered in something etc.) Just my , I don't want to ruffle any feathers I promise, I frankly don't think this is worthy of super serious heated debate, it just needs to be looked into, and physically tested.

Let's all be ladies and gentleman here, and not be on "team kanthal/titanium". We should just all look into it at the best of our abilities, and see if it's a better wire. Personally, I'm confident I'm rather adept at material science, as I have a passion for it, and Biological Sciences is my current major. And I've already looked into (pure elemental) Titanium wire, and I haven't found an inkling of risk, especially considering how low the stress of vaping will cause it to be under, particularly if not dry burned like many suggest.

Vape on friends!

 

[Cmoke]

Thank you for listening to me, and please dont spend my time any more

Fine by me Imeo, fine by me.

 

[Cmoke]

As for Kanthal and Nichrome being resistant to oxidation that is an interesting conversation. However, their uses in these devices is kind of irrelevant as they're not heated high enough to incandescent temperatures and if they are, they don't come into direct contact with your food. Regardless, we've all ben rocking Kanthal resistances in our microcoils and we've seen the gunk gathering on them and the eventual rust; let's not pretend that we haven't ignored these issues until now...

Thanks for responding on content. Yes, Kanthal and Nichrome being so resistent to corrosion was the reason why they were selected. In these appliances they are heated up to red hot. The composition of these alloys is such that they do oxidate, but that a thin and stable layer of oxide will prevent further oxidation and stop any detoriation beyond that point. The outer layer will be formed by the element which has the most thermodynamically stable oxide, which is aluminum oxide on Kanthal and chromium oxide on the Nichrome wires. As far as I know these two oxides do not dissolve in water (please correct me if I'm wrong), but I don't know about PG and VG (would like to know though). Rust on the other hand will not form a layer but a porous crust that can easily break down and also be easily penetrated by oxygen (continuing the oxidation process until there is no metal left). I don't know about Titanium, and I will not use it before I do.

Another important aspect is of course the chemical interaction of juices on the protective layers of Kanthal or Nichrome. No problem, it is good to keep things separated, but of course this may be highly relevant for people who see their wires deteriorate (I never saw that but I mainly use flavourless VG base myself).

 

[soulseek]

Thanks for responding on content. Yes, Kanthal and Nichrome being so resistent to corrosion was the reason why they were selected. In these appliances they are heated up to red hot. The composition of these alloys is such that they do oxidate, but that a thin and stable layer of oxide will prevent further oxidation and stop any detoriation beyond that point. The outer layer will be formed by the element which has the most thermodynamically stable oxide, which is aluminum oxide on Kanthal and chromium oxide on the Nichrome wires. As far as I know these two oxides do not dissolve in water (please correct me if I'm wrong), but I don't know about PG and VG (would like to know though). Rust on the other hand will not form a layer but a porous crust that can easily break down and also be easily penetrated by oxygen (continuing the oxidation process until there is no metal left). I don't know about Titanium, and I will not use it before I do.

Another important aspect is of course the chemical interaction of juices on the protective layers of Kanthal or Nichrome, but this part was declared off-topic by Imeo. No problem, it is good to keep things separated, but of course this may be highly relevant for people who see their wires deteriorate (I never saw that but I mainly use flavourless VG base myself).

Yes aluminium oxidises instantly in air and it is this thin oxide layer that makes it so resistant to corrosion as it prevents oxygen from reaching the bulk of the metal. Its presence in Kanthal would imply that we have similar layer forming on it since it is more reactive than iron. The oxide is insoluble in ethanol and diethyl ether according to Wikipedia, so I'm fairly certain that it's insoluble in VG.
I think we can safely agree that until we get some lab testing done on all types of wire, we can't be certain about anything.

 

[soulseek]

Iron isn't the only metal that can rust, the Nickel in Nichrome will also rust, especially when in contact with liquid (acidic e-liquids) and extreme heat.

I think he was just being pedantic in regards to "rust", since it refers to the oxidation of Fe (III) only, a mere remnant of the past.

 

[imeothanasis]

One one hand, some people are asking for evidence, on the other hand they post not serious links from internet, and on third hand they want to wait for scientists to make experiments. Instead of trying to be scientists or instead of waiting for scientists to make their experiments that their results will take years to come, I suggest you to not be guinea pigs, DONT oxidise your wires and vape on biocompatible materials. Its simple as that. All the rest is just to fill pages on ecf.

 

[imeothanasis]

I think we can safely agree that until we get some lab testing done on all types of wire, we can't be certain about anything.

exactly seek. So lets stay on the safe side instead of trying to make conclusions by our own

 

[Rossum]

I think he was just being pedantic in regards to "rust", since it refers to the oxidation of Fe (III) only, a mere remnant of the past.

If we're going to have a serious discussion, we need to call things what they are. Rust is an iron oxide.. If an alloy doesn't have iron in it, it may still form various oxides or corrode in other ways, but it can't possibly form rust.

One one hand, some people are asking for evidence, on the other hand they post not serious links from internet, and on third hand they want to wait for scientists to make experiments.

No, I don't want to wait for them to make experiments, because I have no idea when or if they will get around to making those experiments. I want to pay to get such experiments done, and it won't take years to see results. I expect we could have results in less that 3 months if we pay to get the experiments done. You see, I want to know the truth. How about you?

 

[soulseek]

If we're going to have a serious discussion, we need to call things what they are. Rust is an iron oxide.. If an alloy doesn't have iron in it, it may still form various oxides or corrode in other ways, but it can't possibly form rust.

Well technically speaking rust could be Iron hydroxide or an even larger molecule consisting of oxygen groups, hydroxide groups as well as Chlorine.
The important part is that rust is a form of corrosion.

 

[imeothanasis]

I know the truth buddy. I dont look around for it
I think that you miss the main issue. But its not only you, its the majority of people, only because you are so used to burn wires that you want to see results of burned wires when the issue is to stop burning them. I am sure that you understand me. We must not search about what is produced by burning wires, we must not burn them

As for the rust, you are talking to a person with almost a master in metals. I just use the word "rust" because most people dont understand what oxides are.

If we're going to have a serious discussion, we need to call things what they are. Rust is an iron oxide.. If an alloy doesn't have iron in it, it may still form various oxides or corrode in other ways, but it can't possibly form rust.


No, I don't want to wait for them to make experiments, because I have no idea when or if they will get around to making those experiments. I want to pay to get such experiments done, and it won't take years to see results. I expect we could have results in less that 3 months if we pay to get the experiments done. You see, I want to know the truth. How about you?

 

[imeothanasis]

I have said it at least 30 times on forum that we must not destroy our metal surface. Lets say it one more time.

DONT burn metals and wires.
use only biocompatible metals. Metals that our body can absorb in large quantities without a problem. One of them is titanium that esmokeguru sells

Stop posting results about titanium oxides or any other oxide of a metal. They are all very dangerous. Kanthal oxides are dangerous, titanium oxides are dangerous, nichrome oxides are dangerous, and any oxide of any metal is dangerous

 

[Rossum]

Well technically speaking rust could be Iron hydroxide or an even larger molecule consisting of oxygen groups, hydroxide groups as well as Chlorine.
The important part is that rust is a form of corrosion.

No, the important part is that rust is an iron compound.

Now is anyone interesting in actually testing this hypothesis that titanium is safer to use than Kanthal or nichrome?

The claim has been made that Kanthal and nichrome are "unhealthy" to use. Why don't we try to find out if that's true instead of engaging in speculation?

The claim has also been made that torching and/or dry-burning are problematical. It's plain to see that this is true of titanium. Let's find out if there is actually a concern when this is done with Kanthal and/or nichrome.

I know the truth buddy. I dont look around for it

You come across almost like a religious fanatic. "I know the truth but I can't show you any actual evidence".

 

[Coldpunk]

Has anybody linked to any facts showing where ti is safer when used as a heating element? Are the any examples of ti being used as a heating element? If not, why not?

 

[imeothanasis]

Ros, I hope that we understand each other. Maybe I made a mistake?
Dont try to find if oxides are dangerous, because they are. And only use biocompatible materials, something that kanthal is not.

How more simple things can be? lol

No, the important part is that rust is an iron compound.

Now is anyone interesting in actually testing this hypothesis that titanium is safer to use than Kanthal or nichrome?

The claim has been made that Kanthal and nichrome are "unhealthy" to use. Why don't we try to find out if that's true instead of engaging in speculation?

The claim has also been made that torching and/or dry-burning are problematical. It's plain to see that this is true of titanium. Let's find out if there is actually a concern when this is done with Kanthal and/or nichrome.


You come across almost like a religious fanatic. "I know the truth but I can't show you any actual evidence".

 

[imeothanasis]

Has anybody linked to any facts showing where ti is safer when used as a heating element? Are the any examples of ti being used as a heating element? If not, why not?

cold, dont be confused buddy. Titanium is used too as a heating material but its expensive and because it doesnt offer anything more than other wires, we dont use it.

All existing heating materials were not made to come in touch with things we put to our body like food, water, fumes. These materials were made just to be heated in a sealed environment.
But for vaping were liquid comes in touch with our wires, we need a material like titanium for the reasons we have discussed on this thread

 

[Zanzibar]

Ros, I hope that we understand each other. Maybe I made a mistake?
Dont try to find if oxides are dangerous, because they are. And only use biocompatible materials, something that kanthal is not.

How more simple things can be? And how complicated you want to make them! lol

This pretty much sums up your point of view...

On a side note, for 29$ +S&H everyone could have 200ft of 30 Gauge Grade 1 Titanium Wire from here: Titanium Laser-Weight Round Wire, 30-Ga., Soft

 

[Coldpunk]

I'm wondering though if the oxides created by titanium burning are so bad for us that they might be why we don't see it used anywhere where burning could possibly occur.

I understand completely the "all oxides are bad" discussions and completely agree. My question is which oxides are worse for me in a scenario like an accidental dry hit. Or what kind of heat ti can withstand before it changes the chemistry of the metal to cause it to emit harmful things into my body.