To all Christian members

[skenagle]

Haha. You don't have to buy anything from me unless you want to. I really don't need the money - I just like to serve the e-cig community with low prices (not to mention it gets me first dibs on the latest developments ) But lets keep on topic!

The problem I mostly have with Christian faith, as I mentioned in the above posts, is that it is based on English translations of an incomplete Gospel. This question has always been nagging me - how can we trust the English translation that has been re-written, dozens, even hundreds of times through hundreds of generations and dozens of languages? The Gospels may have been written by the hand of the Holy Spirit through the original writers. But how accurate and truthful were those who translated and suppressed the original texts over the past 2000 years?

Hi Gashin,

I can tell you how education works in this area of Bible authenticity.
We DO have old rephrased and re-translated documents that have been passed over and over throughout the years.

It IS a problem with true historical criticism when the text is analyzed understanding that its source is a copy or a copy.

For years christians and scholars alike have worked through this problem. (this is of course a problem in ANY religion or written word of history)

However there are some things that make dents in this approach and understanding. One is that new texts are found sometimes that are OLDER than the ones we have. When a new text has been fond we use it to compare it to the writings that are currently being translated from today.

Since the older writings were closer to the origin point we give those writings more authority over the newer ones that have been found and then we retranslate and make a new version. This is why we have modern bible translations and quite a bit of them. Its a retranslation in many cases of newer findings of OLDER texts.

So the accuracy IS a very serious issue to many of us and there are things being done all the time to allow us all to believe in textual information that is as close to the source as possible.

What we DO find in the older texts however is almost the exact same thing. The new translations VERY RARELY say something new..(It is extremely rare) and that is a fantastic thing because it means that although the text has been translated hundreds of times and reinterpreted through societal norms and then readjusted into interpretable and colloquially appropriate structures, its basically been exactly the same as the OLDEST copies we find.

So all in all in regard to textual criticism, dont let uninformed people throw that at you as a road block, there are very educated and sincere people working on this day in and day out.

Ultimately Let me say one more thing about Christianity...

God id capable of making Himself known through retranslated thousand year old texts, even if we get it wrong a little here and there.. What kind of a God would He be, if He needed us to do things right in order for Him to have his way?

Not a very smart one lol.

Dont seek Christianity for information sake, look to ask, Is this really the Creator of the universe, Is Jesus this same God?

Then put some pieces together and consider it.

Good luck.
-Chris

 

[sparkomatic]

The problem I have with the above proof is that the universe is NOT perfect.

I hear ya... I've thought about that often - and the list of problems is infinite. I've got a bad back and have to wear corrective lenses... Several dear friends and relatives have died from cancer, etc. etc. I certainly don't have an answer for it. One possible theory is that we humans and our environment were initially created perfect, but because we were given "free will" (the Bible mentions this often) we have over the centuries been slowly destroying our environment and degrading ourselves from generation to generation through some number of factors. Another other theory is that there is imperfection by design - I was thinking about the first Matrix as I wrote that:

"Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery."

I personally believe that it's a combination of those things. We do plenty to screw up the order and balance of things on this earth, but imperfections and problems seem to be a big part of the "master plan"... To help us learn and grow, to help us appreciate the fragility of life. Anyway just my thoughts on it.

 

[Smokin'Sandy]

Buddhist teachings are in conflict with Christian teachings in that there is an objective reality in Christianity that determines right or wrong and Jesus taught the morality that we must adopt to enter the Kingdom of God. In contrast, Buddhism teaches that we cannot trust our reality because of our limited mental and behavioral patterns. It strives for achieving perfect awareness through the rejection of conception, emotion, and attachment. This is the sole reason for Buddhist moral teachings which surprisingly coincide with the moral teachings of Christianity,

I think you have taken both philosophies to the extreme and are missing their underlying truths. 8-o

 

[Smokin'Sandy]

Hello Gashin,


True. Fish only know life in water. Can't know life in air. To be able to know life beyond what we say exist, we must not only be willing to die (to self aka crucified into Christ), but to actually die to self and give up the false will that harms oneself and others.



Beliefs are nearly always subjective. Few be they who know. Buddha knew but did not say. Jesus knew and said. Same result occurred... few be they who know.



The bible will speak to each person according to the level of understanding that they are at.

As for how you should view the bible, I am completely comfortable with letting each person come to their own view.

As for me, the bible also speaks of many mysteries and concealed secrets. When this level of understanding is gained, it is found that all religions are the same at their core.



I read it once online years ago. It was pretty wild. I think I will read it again before the year is out.



What is heaven but freedom from material, social, emotional and self-attachment? Does Zen teach/speak on Nirvana?

The differing goals, as you have stated, is only one of perception, imo.



And yours!

Well said ltbv (you don't mind if I abbreviate do you?)

I would add that the attachment mentioned in Buddhism has more to do with, to use an old term, hang-ups. Not a negation of things. Yes, perception is paramount.

 

[Robert]

Gashin you are a US supplier? For which company?

I want to make sure I never order anything from you! You sound like a childish ..... looking for attention!

A Mexican Nun with a metel ruler for 12$ an hour will convince you. Go find some church going homeboys in Chino Hills and they might convert you for free!

 

[let_there_be_vaping]

Hi, Smokin' Sandy,

Well said ltbv (you don't mind if I abbreviate do you?)

Thank you, and I don't mind at all. I always use the initials too when (if) I sign off. The name is much too long, lol!

I would add that the attachment mentioned in Buddhism has more to do with, to use an old term, hang-ups. Not a negation of things. Yes, perception is paramount.

I totally agree. Probably don't need to mention it, but some of those hang-ups generate from the sub-conscious and are therefore often outside personal awareness. This can make achieving true perception much more difficult, but never impossible. All things are possible with God and one's personal deity can/will assist in this matter if we so desire.

 

[Smokin'Sandy]

Hi, Smokin' Sandy,



Thank you, and I don't mind at all. I always use the initials too when (if) I sign off. The name is much too long, lol!



I totally agree. Probably don't need to mention it, but some of those hang-ups generate from the sub-conscious and are therefore often outside personal awareness. This can make achieving true perception much more difficult, but never impossible. All things are possible with God and one's personal deity can/will assist in this matter if we so desire.

That is very true. Understanding this has been called many different names such as awakening, nirvana and divine grace. They all mean the same thing.

I think it has a lot to do with language and the meanings of the words spoken and what they imply. I can read your words here, "All things are possible with God and one's personal deity can/will assist in this matter if we so desire" and automatically assume you mean an in-the-sky deity that is different from oneself. If my background and experiences are that of say, a belief in an external god, then that is what I would read. The same can be said for you in the manner you want to express an inward realization. You would use certain words and phrases that you are familiar with.

Since perceptions of this nature are without words, explaining them to others leaves a lot of room for misunderstanding when the words are taken for the experience.

Edit: I need to read my posts better. I wasn't saying anything bad about what you were saying, I was speaking of perception of anyone's words. Sorry, if that came across wrong.

 

[let_there_be_vaping]

Smokin'Sandy,

Edit: I need to read my posts better. I wasn't saying anything bad about what you were saying, I was speaking of perception of anyone's words. Sorry, if that came across wrong.

LOL, no I didn't take what you said as anything other than what you intended.

I had to laugh because I hadn't seen your edit until I went to reply. Hope you don't mind my pulling it out of order to respond to.

That is very true. Understanding this has been called many different names such as awakening, nirvana and divine grace. They all mean the same thing.

I think it has a lot to do with language and the meanings of the words spoken and what they imply. I can read your words here, "All things are possible with God and one's personal deity can/will assist in this matter if we so desire" and automatically assume you mean an in-the-sky deity that is different from oneself. If my background and experiences are that of say, a belief in an external god, then that is what I would read. The same can be said for you in the manner you want to express an inward realization. You would use certain words and phrases that you are familiar with.

Since perceptions of this nature are without words, explaining them to others leaves a lot of room for misunderstanding when the words are taken for the experience.

Exactly. And then it can quickly become even more complicated with the various concepts, such as each of us being an individuated piece of the all that is and all the Life that surrounds us whether we can perceive it or not.

As I see it Life/God is all there is... in form, without form, and some whom have the ability to assume form and dissolve from form at will, if desired.

 

[JG777]

I'm Buddhist with a strong background in Catholicism (hardcore believer through 12 years of Catholic school). I want to know what you can say to make me believe in your religion.

Experience has taught me that people don’t come to spiritual truth by weighing the physical evidence. Christian leaders endlessly talk about the power of arguing people into believing in Christ, but it rarely happens that way. I’ve been a Christian for18 years, and not once have I been able to argue a person into becoming a believer. In all acts of salvation and conversion, the Holy Ghost is active in pointing people to the truth. The Bible tells us that without the working of the Spirit of God, no man would find salvation.
Everyone has their own reasons for placing their trust in the Bible. Some reasons have such strong basic truth, they should be universally applied to the lives of most Christians. Listed below are some reasons I believe the Holy Bible is the supreme authority on all matters.

1: Prophesy fufilment

Many books claim to be the inspired writing of God. What makes the Holy Bible stand out from the crowd is that it is the only religious document that contains historically verifiable prophecies that have consistently been fulfilled. The Koran makes no attempt at predicting the future. The accurate prediction of the rebirth of Israel is Bible prophecy’s most stunning achievement. The Word of God also said that China would rise to be a world power; Europe would form a single government; the world would someday have a globally integrated financial market; and that there would be a diplomatic struggle (which we’re seeing today) over who should control Jerusalem.

2: Gods deliverance of the Jewish people

One of the greatest miracles of God is the preservation of the children of Israel. No other group of people has ever been completely annihilated as a nation and then later reborn. The rebirth of Israel in 1948 is the key indication that we are in the end times.
The regathering of Israel is a remarkable task alone, but what makes one have to admit that the hand of God was involved is how the Jews managed to overcome unbelievable persecution. Each of the following nations and tribes has failed in its attempt to destroy the Jews:
Amalekites
Arameans
Assyrians
Babylonians
Canaanites
Edomites
Egyptians
Germany
Hittites
Midianites
Moabites
Persians
Philistines
Romans
Spain
The whole Muslim world
Of course, God is not finished preserving the Jewish people
.
3: Testimony of Jesus

Testimony of Jesus in the Gospel is proof enough of His deity, but the Bible has an added bonus. The Old Testament prophets foretold the coming of the Messiah in great detail. They listed several prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.
He would be a descendant of Abraham (Gen. 12:3; Gen. 22:18).
His tribe would be Judah (Gen. 49:10).
He would be an ancestor of David (2 Sam. 7:12 and 13).
He would be born in the city of Bethlehem (Mic. 5:2).
He would enter Jerusalem on a donkey (Zech. 9:9).
The Lord would lay on Him the iniquity of us all (Isa. 53:5-6).
He would remain silent before his accusers (Isa. 53:7).
He would be considered a criminal and executed with criminals (Isa. 53:12).
He would bear the sin of many (Isa. 53:12).
He would be killed (Isa. 53:8).
His hands and feet would be pierced (Ps. 22:16).
His clothing would be divided up and gambled over (Ps. 22:18).
He would be buried in the tomb of a wealthy man (Isa. 53:9).
His body would not see corruption (Ps. 16:10).
He would rise from the dead (Isa. 53:9-12). (Seen by 500 witnesess)
He would ascend into heaven (Ps. 110:1)

Faith comes by hearing the word of God.
You will know when you really find him, because you will never go back if you truly have.
JG

 

[gashin]

Don't shoot me with your assault rifle!

I went to a school with Mexican nuns - they never struck us. But I did know a lot of "homeboys" that went to Church, they were Catholic like you but then they offered me a line of coke one time....

Gashin you are a US supplier? For which company?

I want to make sure I never order anything from you! You sound like a childish ..... looking for attention!

A Mexican Nun with a metel ruler for 12$ an hour will convince you. Go find some church going homeboys in Chino Hills and they might convert you for free!

 

[Mary Kay]

Gashin, I have read this thread and I am not sure what you want. In your original post you asked to find a reason to Belive.
Here is my take.
Look around you, there are miracles in every thing you see. rainbows, children, old people in the park. Listen to a river, watch a sunrise or go to the beach to see a sunset. The stars at night, a dogs eye's, a babies coo, your wife's smile, listen to your own heart.
That should be reason enough to believe in the good in the world. The good is in nature, in people, in you. We hold the Deity, whichever one you choose to believe in in, in you. You are your own Deity. It says in a nice book, God created man in his own image. He surely didn't mean to look like him, but to be like him. Then he went and gave us free will!
A specific Religion doesn't matter, it's only the means to an end. To learn to become the best person you can be.
Belief is simply the abilty to love yourself and others.
Good luck on your journey.

 

[Stickless]

"I was raised a Catholic until I reached the age of reason." - George Carlin.

Watch the movie "Religulous" for a good interview with a Vatican Priest and Scientist.

Other religions predate the Christian religion by hundreds of years with uncanny similarities: Virgin birth, raising the dead, healing the sick, giving sight to the blind, walking on water, December 25th birth of the Messiah, crucifixion, resurrection, etc.

In my opinion, having been raised a Catholic and scolded at every turn when I asked for answers... religion is nothing more than a form of control and a way to raise money... through fear and intimidation.

NO ONE has any proof or special knowledge of an afterlife or a landline to the Almighty... if anyone tells you they do... keep an eye on your wallet.

Not looking for an argument here... just my humble opinion.

Peace...

 

[gashin]

I like your posts - you're very open and accepting of truths from other religions. You have a great understanding of Buddhism and seem to be able to combine the two to meet your own spiritual needs. I think should do the same and try to find a God through Buddhism (an oxymoron?). I guess the only difference between heaven and nirvana is that nirvana is freedom from suffering without the need for a God.

Hello Gashin,


True. Fish only know life in water. Can't know life in air. To be able to know life beyond what we say exist, we must not only be willing to die (to self aka crucified into Christ), but to actually die to self and give up the false will that harms oneself and others.



Beliefs are nearly always subjective. Few be they who know. Buddha knew but did not say. Jesus knew and said. Same result occurred... few be they who know.



The bible will speak to each person according to the level of understanding that they are at.

As for how you should view the bible, I am completely comfortable with letting each person come to their own view.

As for me, the bible also speaks of many mysteries and concealed secrets. When this level of understanding is gained, it is found that all religions are the same at their core.



I read it once online years ago. It was pretty wild. I think I will read it again before the year is out.



What is heaven but freedom from material, social, emotional and self-attachment? Does Zen teach/speak on Nirvana?

The differing goals, as you have stated, is only one of perception, imo.



And yours!

 

[mokeyjoe]

The accurate prediction of the rebirth of Israel is Bible prophecy’s most stunning achievement.

The problem with this is it's effectively a self fulfilling prophecy. The reason Israel exists is because it's promised to Jews in the Bible - so Jews believe it's their right to live there. It's not so much a prophecy as a statement of intent.

Many people have talked or written about, say, the independence of their country from occupation. It doesn't mean that if this comes to pass it's a 'prophecy'.

The Word of God also said that China would rise to be a world power; Europe would form a single government; the world would someday have a globally integrated financial market; and that there would be a diplomatic struggle (which we’re seeing today) over who should control Jerusalem.

Where does it say this?

2: Gods deliverance of the Jewish people

Given their persecution over the centuries it doesn't seem that God's particularly good at looking after his own. Not a particularly convincing argument.

3: Testimony of Jesus

Surely more of a case of the 'facts' being massaged to fit the message than the message being prophetic of the 'fact'. This presupposes faith, it doesn't engender it.

Experience has taught me that people don’t come to spiritual truth by weighing the physical evidence.

I'll definitely agree with you on that one.

 

[gashin]

Great insight - coming from a pagan it holds even more credibility...

A koan for you:



When it comes to spirituality, do not look to cues from others. Science and such things can be learned from others. Spirituality is meaningless unless it comes from within.

But what do I know; I'm just an old pagan.

 

[let_there_be_vaping]

Hi Gashin,

I like your posts - you're very open and accepting of truths from other religions. You have a great understanding of Buddhism and seem to be able to combine the two to meet your own spiritual needs. I think should do the same and try to find a God through Buddhism (an oxymoron?). I guess the only difference between heaven and nirvana is that nirvana is freedom from suffering without the need for a God.

I too have enjoyed our conversation.

If you ever want to talk, feel free to PM me anytime.

All the best to you, always.

ltbv

 

[eric]

Believe what you believe, mate. I myself am a Christian, but you can't convince someone to believe in something with words. You have to acquire an understanding of things to use as a basis for your beliefs, and your circumstances just haven't led you to the same system of beliefs as us Christians.

I might be able to convince you to believe in creation, but to believe in a theology beyond that is really up to your own sense of rationale and logic. I wish you luck, mate, and hope you find comfort in the fact that we'll all find out one day.

My advice is to simply follow the moral doctrine of Christianity (if you so choose) and continue the path you're on so long as it isn't destructive to yourself or others and abides by the protocols set forth by Him. If you're meant to be Christian and truly seek salvation through the teachings of Jesus Christ, you will find your way in time.

 

[Smokin'Sandy]

Smokin'Sandy,

LOL, no I didn't take what you said as anything other than what you intended.

I had to laugh because I hadn't seen your edit until I went to reply. Hope you don't mind my pulling it out of order to respond to.

I don't mind at all.

Exactly. And then it can quickly become even more complicated with the various concepts, such as each of us being an individuated piece of the all that is and all the Life that surrounds us whether we can perceive it or not.

As I see it Life/God is all there is... in form, without form, and some whom have the ability to assume form and dissolve from form at will, if desired.

Yes. I also feel that perception has limitations when it's understood to be all there is. There is so much more than our radar system could ever grasp consciously. It's not subconscious, but more like supraconscious. It's not something that can come into our awareness, but nonetheless, exists, IMO.

I used to paint and there is a picture I would like to paint eventually of a black background with many bright holes that has the eyes of many different creatures and landscapes within these holes. In the center would be a large eye with a person standing there and reflected back into the pupil of this eye would be their face and calling it, "Eye of the Beholder". Anyway...I'm rambling.

 

[let_there_be_vaping]

Yes. I also feel that perception has limitations when it's understood to be all there is. There is so much more than our radar system could ever grasp consciously. It's not subconscious, but more like supraconscious. It's not something that can come into our awareness, but nonetheless, exists, IMO.

Agreed that there is much beyond our own personal perceptions and even in the supra-realm there is so much more than our own (if-developed supra-consciousness) awareness can pick up on and grasp in totality. As for the 'all there is', it is constantly growing/enlarging so even as I finish this sentence there is even more to the all that is. Then, the source ... ineffable, imo, yet we are that too.

Defining... it is not necessary, though it is our nature to do so. Yet, I tend to think that some awe is lost in the process perhaps.

I used to paint and there is a picture I would like to paint eventually of a black background with many bright holes that has the eyes of many different creatures and landscapes within these holes. In the center would be a large eye with a person standing there and reflected back into the pupil of this eye would be their face and calling it, "Eye of the Beholder". Anyway...I'm rambling.

Cool... I totally get it.

 

[Smokin'Sandy]

Agreed that there is much beyond our own personal perceptions and even in the supra-realm there is so much more than our own (if-developed supra-consciousness) awareness can pick up on and grasp in totality. As for the 'all there is', it is constantly growing/enlarging so even as I finish this sentence there is even more to the all that is. Then, the source ... ineffable, imo, yet we are that too.

Defining... it is not necessary, though it is our nature to do so. Yet, I tend to think that some awe is lost in the process perhaps.

I couldn't agree more. Words are sooo two dimensional! I think this becomes a problem when the written or spoken word is taken for reality. Mythology uses the written word as a way to get people to see another dimension. It's like drawing in perspective on a sheet of paper; the third dimension isn't actually there, but it can be perceived from a two dimensional drawing. There is no other way to express this from words, which are linear and can only describe by way of comparison. What they are trying to express has no comparison, therefore, shouldn't be taken literally, IMO.

Cool... I totally get it.

Thanks!