To Get a Provari....Or Not?

[sandt38]

What false info? Anyways, here's the pics.

As stated, that scope is terribly outdated and slow. Plus, with analogs you need to understand how to set them up to trigger.

I don't think you understand what frequency is. Frequency, measured in a base scale of hertz (hz) is simply a function of cycled per second, or time based switching. A device that cycles at 33.3 Hz turns on and off at a rate of 33.3 times per second. It is not a straight DC current, it is switched on and off. A device that cycles at 800 Hz turns on and off at a rate of 800 times per second. Again, it is not a straight DC current, it is switched on and off.

So the false info is that it is not straight DC current, it is simply pulse width modulated current at a quicker rate.

 

[dam718]

Just to be clear, I don't think most of us ProVari die hards every try to put out false information. Like you, many of us were also looking for the why and how a ProVari could be that much better... And like GrimmTech in the post I linked, and PBusardo in the video embedded above, through research we found our objective and scientifically quantifiable answers. For most folks who can't tell the difference, I say good for them as they will be able to vape far more economically than me! Myself, I can taste a pretty big difference between a ProVari and other regulated devices. I haven't tried them all, but I've tried a handful of them, and the only thing that makes sense to me is the way a ProVari generates its PWM output signal compared to the other guys... We're not all bad folks, there are just a lot of people out there who don't necessarily understand the method to our madness... It makes their head explode You should get it though, you seem like a pretty bright person in your understanding of DC theory.

 

[Tinkiegrrl]

Disclaimer: I in no way am comparing the MVP 2 to the Provari. I wish to own a Provari one day, and am making due with my MVP 2 until that day.

That said, has any one of you ever examined the MVP 2 as you have with Provari? I've seen a flat line in a Pbusardo video, but he didn't go into why it was, or how Innokin did it. I'm just curious.

 

[yzer]

Pulse width, frequency, AC/DC doesn't matter worth squat when it comes to vapor quality.

The vapor is produced by heat from a heating coil. That coil isn't turning from hot to cold XXX times per second because the power is pulsed.

An electric heating coil will not react instantaneously to the application of current. If you doubt this go to a cold burner on an electric range. Turn the burner to to high and see how long it takes to glow orange. Let it glow orange. Turn the burner knob off. Want to tough the burner right now?

The coils in our atomizers are not turning hot to cold every time the coil power is pulsed on and off. Instead they reach an average and stable heat output while being pulsed. There is no variation in heat output that can vary the vapor quality.

Provari vapor is smoother than Vamo vapor because the coil temperature is somehow more stable? If true I'd expect to see some IR camera or other temperature documentation to prove this.

In the lack of supporting evidence this claim of vapor superiority is busted. Internet rumor. Fanboi ranting.

 

[dam718]

As stated, that scope is terribly outdated and slow. Plus, with analogs you need to understand how to set them up to trigger.

I don't think you understand what frequency is. Frequency, measured in a base scale of hertz (hz) is simply a function of cycled per second, or time based switching. A device that cycles at 33.3 Hz turns on and off at a rate of 33.3 times per second. It is not a straight DC current, it is switched on and off. A device that cycles at 800 Hz turns on and off at a rate of 800 times per second. Again, it is not a straight DC current, it is switched on and off.

So the false info is that it is not straight DC current, it is simply pulse width modulated current at a quicker rate.

That scope in those pictures is an old school Tektronix 2213... Although "Old" and "Slow" by todays standards, it's still a 60MHz scope, and an 800Hz signal is well within its swim lane.

Here's a PDF that outlines the tech specs... http://www.globaltestsupply.com/datasheets/5B4C7532d01.pdf

It's far more than capable of accurately measuring the PWM signal of a ProVari

Sorry, I love these old scopes... LoL... I get offended when people bad mouth them!

 

[sandt38]

Basically what I am gathering is that the Provari uses a larger duty cycle through its modulation to maintain a more steady voltage across the coils.

If this is right, then we have a simple answer to a rather complex query.

 

[stevegmu]

Last I checked, the heating element on an electric range isn't fed a liquid which cools it when power is reduced...

 

[yzer]

No, the coil on a range is surround by cool air.

 

[stevegmu]

No, the coil on a range is surround by cool air.

Well that explains everything. Clearly the heating element in an electric range functions exactly like vape coils.

 

[yzer]

Indeed, it does.

 

[yzer]

I wouldn't have an electric range, myself. I prefer natural gas. Maybe Provari could come up with a butane PV?

 

[stevegmu]

Indeed, it does.

You gave me a fantastic idea. Working in thermoplastics extrusion, we use water baths to cool extruded tubing- at a vast expense. I'll make a suggestion to the engineers we run extruded product through the water baths, but without water, because radiant air cooling is the same as liquid cooling. Looks like I'll be getting a huge cost saving bonus this year...

 

[dam718]

An electric heating coil will not react instantaneously to the application of current. If you doubt this go to a cold burner on an electric range. Turn the burner to to high and see how long it takes to glow orange. Let it glow orange. Turn the burner knob off. Want to tough the burner right now?

In free air, the burner on your range will stay very hot when you turn it off... True! But will it stay at that temperature when you turn it off while surrounded in a PG/VG solution? By not taking this in to consideration, your theory is as busted as any of ours.

 

[BernieVideo]

Pulse width, frequency, AC/DC doesn't matter worth squat when it comes to vapor quality.

The vapor is produced by heat from a heating coil. That coil isn't turning from hot to cold XXX times per second because the power is pulsed.

An electric heating coil will not react instantaneously to the application of current. If you doubt this go to a cold burner on an electric range. Turn the burner to to high and see how long it takes to glow orange. Let it glow orange. Turn the burner knob off. Want to tough the burner right now?

The coils in our atomizers are not turning hot to cold every time the coil power is pulsed on and off. Instead they reach an average and stable heat output while being pulsed. There is no variation in heat output that can vary the vapor quality.

Provari vapor is smoother than Vamo vapor because the coil temperature is somehow more stable? If true I'd expect to see some IR camera or other temperature documentation to prove this.

In the lack of supporting evidence this claim of vapor superiority is busted. Internet rumor. Fanboi ranting.

Apples and oranges example to try and make a spurious argument

The coils on an electric range are not made out of the same metal. They are getting way way WAY more than 3-6 volts.

I would touch the coils of one of our attys seconds after a long Vape with no worry of a burn.

Seriously. Your argument smells much like a hog farm.

Happy New Year!

Now go away


Tapatalking with my thumbs.
Join the CASAA.
Protect your Vaping Rights!

 

[dam718]

You gave me a fantastic idea. Working in thermoplastics extrusion, we use water baths to cool extruded tubing- at a vast expense. I'll make a suggestion to the engineers we run extruded product through the water baths, but without water, because radiant air cooling is the same as liquid cooling. Looks like I'll be getting a huge cost saving bonus this year...

Brilliant! Man, that radiator on the front of your car is a big waste too! May as well kick it off and just cool it with stagnant air!

 

[PLANofMAN]

As stated, that scope is terribly outdated and slow. Plus, with analogs you need to understand how to set them up to trigger.

I don't think you understand what frequency is. Frequency, measured in a base scale of hertz (hz) is simply a function of cycled per second, or time based switching. A device that cycles at 33.3 Hz turns on and off at a rate of 33.3 times per second. It is not a straight DC current, it is switched on and off. A device that cycles at 800 Hz turns on and off at a rate of 800 times per second. Again, it is not a straight DC current, it is switched on and off.

So the false info is that it is not straight DC current, it is simply pulse width modulated current at a quicker rate.

I don't appreciate being called stupid (even in a roundabout way). I've never claimed that the ProVari puts out a flat DC signal. And just so you know (you probably do, though you haven't mentioned it) your eVic runs at about 100 hz.

Edit: and nice of you to not read the quote I posted, just mock the age of the machine. I'll re-post the relevant bit.

"The provari fires so often that at slower time stamps, it looks like a solid line. When it fires @ 3v, its 3v. When 4.5 its 4.5 so forth and so on. The line actually goes up and down the scale with voltage instead of making an average out of 6 and 0v. I did manage to get a good look at the ProV's pulses with a little adjusting. I had it down to .2V per square making the voltage variation only in the neighborhood of .05v. And it does this 800 times a second."

Basically what I am gathering is that the Provari uses a larger duty cycle through its modulation to maintain a more steady voltage across the coils.

If this is right, then we have a simple answer to a rather complex query.

It also uses a buck and boost technology that isn't found in any other mod. That is part of the difference as well, though it doesn't get talked about as much.

Also, the voltage output on a ProVari is incredibly accurate. If you set it at 4.5v you will get 4.49-4.51v, every single time.

 

[Caridwen]

Again?

Keep the comments civil folks.

 

[Baditude]

Yzer has long questioned the difference between 33.3 Hz PWM and 800 Hz PWM and how the higher frequency of a Provari along with superior filtering methods could produce the "smoother" vape many believe it produces. Thats fine and dandy for him. I'm glad that he can fully enjoy his 33.3 Hz mods.

But for myself and many others, we can definitely tell the difference.

I hate to introduce yet another anology, yet this is what makes sense to ME. If two identical cars had two different engines in them, which would give you a "smoother" ride because of their powerplant? A four banger Toyota Corolla or a 12 cylinder Jaguar?

 

[yzer]

In free air, the burner on your range will stay very hot when you turn it off... True! But will it stay at that temperature when you turn it off while surrounded in a PG/VG solution? By not taking this in to consideration, your theory is as busted as any of ours.

A water bath will certainly cool faster than surrounding air. But the coil still retains heat for a while in either instance. What I'm talking about is purported variations in temperature while the coil is under pulsed power and what effect that would have on the coil temperature. If true, this variation could be detected even if the coil was working in a vacuum.

 

[dam718]

Basically what I am gathering is that the Provari uses a larger duty cycle through its modulation to maintain a more steady voltage across the coils.

If this is right, then we have a simple answer to a rather complex query.

You have to understand, the ProVari isn't using an unbuffered PWM signal like the Chinese mods. Those are 0V off and 6V on... No matter WHAT you have the voltage set to. The only voltage readings you will ever see are 0 or 6, in a duty cycle that comes out to the set voltage in Vrms. On a ProVari, the PWM circuit is not unbuffered... It never drops all the way to zero. In fact, it barely drops at all. It barely rises above or drops below set voltage. It looks a lot like a little sine wave centered around set voltage... So I would assume that there are some capacitors in the circuit (at a minimum) that are preventing the voltage from dropping to zero before it's reapplied 800 times a second. I haven't seen the circuit myself, so I can only hypothesize how they accomplished the end result... But the fact is, the oscope readings you see are accurate, showing the wave form with minimal peak to peak voltage separation, right at what you set it to... Every single time. You think two different people doctored the results? What about the video? Did you see the output of the ProVari in the video? On a modern scope which is also more than capable of reading an 800Hz signal?