FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

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Kent C

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“I would be very concerned to learn that TVECA gained access to confidential information about federal policymaking on such critical issues ahead of the public,” Murray said in her letter.

So the doc went from the FDA to the OMB and "somehow" TVECA got a hold of it. IF they "gained access" - from WHOM did they gain that???

It's seems like instead of attacking their 'enemy', they should do an internal audit to find the 'leaker'. That's where the real crime is - disseminating confidential information. The press gets that type of stuff all the time, without consequence (exceptions noted).
 

Katya

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Yes but, just think of all of the ancient vape gear that you would be the proud owner of. Who knows? You may be able to start your own museum. The history of vaping. HA!

I could start a museum now. I even have some blue foam and Lipton tea bags stashed away somewhere. And Leaford's lanyard I used for Taryn spins (and two holes in the wall from escaped cartos). I also have a ziplock bag full of cartomizer condoms--I forgot why we were supposed to save those. :lol:

Remember, nicotine will always be put to good use for most people. No matter what the outcome of any of this is. ;)

I had a bottle of 100mg/ml that turned a rather alarming shade of pink and tasted vile. I used it as a bug spray in my garden. All natural pest control!

Seriously now. I may be pollyannish, but I'm not an idiot. I have some good nic in my freezer always, and I'll probably be getting more. I do understand what's going on--I'm just not panicking ... yet.
 

zoiDman

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So the doc went from the FDA to the OMB and "somehow" TVECA got a hold of it. IF they "gained access" - from WHOM did they gain that???

It's seems like instead of attacking their 'enemy', they should do an internal audit to find the 'leaker'. That's where the real crime is - disseminating confidential information. The press gets that type of stuff all the time, without consequence (exceptions noted).

Who says that the Document(s) came from the OMB/OIRA? Many Times, Leaked Documents come straight from the Originating Department/Agency.
 

MacTechVpr

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It depends. If the FDA is going to take their purist approach, is does no good for us to let ours go. As far as working with others - cigar people mainly, one doesn't have to compromise principles in order to do that. That said, a final rule grandfather date would be great at this point, and 'holding out' for no final rule GF date wouldn't be prudent, but we should eventually fight that as well for the same reasons we'd allow all the creativity and innovation that we'd get with the later GF date. And imo, there would be 'serious limitations' on a lily-livered compromise approach at this juncture. I'd prefer a black market.

A prominent litigator, legislator once told me directly and in no uncertain terms, "…it is not about justice, it's about process." The most valuable asset to the bureaucrat is not our money. No, it's the process. What they'll give everything to protect. Also what they are utterly bound by to their disadvantage. They have nothing else to lose. What they take or would take was always ours to begin with.

Principles may not always prevail. But without them all we have is process.

Let the wise be so governed.

Good luck all.

:)
 

Katya

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Understood. What I don't want to happen is to see you or anyone else fall victim to what I refer to as "rolling panic" in the marketplace. Can I least convince you to make a list of stuff you need? Please. :)

Rolling panic? I thought everyone already has a lifetime supply of nic--and some.
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Thanks, SeniorBoy, for looking out for me. I do have a list, and I'm constantly updating it. :sneaky: I also have plenty of mods, including a ProVari, tanks, RBAs, etc. Heck, I even have 5 boxes of Boge cartos and a couple of carto tanks.

I do realize that the Golden Age of vaping is probably coming to an end--at least temporarily. Unless the OMB sends the whole kitandkaboodle of the deeming regs back to the FDA for a major overhaul, which, BTW, is not impossible, we're screwed. How bad? I have no idea. But the good times of unrestricted access to everything and anything vaping related will be over.

I am mostly concerned about my favorite eliquid purveyors. I don't DIY because I really like ready-made juices from a few vendors and I'll be very sorry to see them go out of business.

That said, I don't think even the FDA will be able to put the vaping genie back in the bottle. The question is how much damage they are going to inflict--and I agree that the damage can be considerable. But it won't be lethal. It's too late for that.
 

Kent C

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Who says that the Document(s) came from the OMB/OIRA? Many Times, Leaked Documents come straight from the Originating Department/Agency.

I didn't say where it came from, only that it went from the FDA to the OMB, so therefore, it could be either (or both).
 

Katya

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Oh Yeah... It would just be Terrible if people Actually knew what was going on with a 7 Billion Dollar Industry that effects the Lives of 3% ~ 15% of the United States Population.

Better to keep things like this Hidden and Out of Sight.

"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it."
-Nancy Pelosi
 

roxynoodle

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MacTechVpr

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I tend to agree with most.

I'm not grasping this part though :- )

It's a weakness that when they stand on the letter of the law…they are bound to enforce it. Without proper legislation they are compelled to make up "rules" as they are. Bury the lie such is based on and they have buried themselves in their own rules. An example being my earlier proposal which in all likelihood will be the only alternative for most. We can't move to Malaysia.

Significant resistance and implementation costs rise. They've fashioned a self-defeating solution only detracting from existing tobacco revenues.

Legitimate business based on free market principles and association is being buried here. Those willing to forego principle will be assimilated and pay for the privilege. You're right it's not regulation or tax as legitimately might or should be defined by Congress. I agree with you. It's a blank and endless scroll.

They might be shrewd to resort to the minimally intrusive, at first. You catch more bees with honey and assurances. Me personally I doubt they will and it might be best in the end for us if they continue presenting the determined confiscatory face we are seeing. It all the more makes the necessity of an alternative imperative. Hopefully one endorsed more universally among vape business and the community as Dimitri alluded to last night. Game on.

As I've said on this and the what if thread…I'll support no enterprise that submits. Can't blame non BT biz or consortium that seeks it's own accommodation. They will fight in their own self-interest and that's to be expected. But for us that's resorting to a rickety fire escape. We've already been sold out once by tobacco. That's enough. I'll compromise if I have to on my own terms, not theirs.

I'd rather not see one more penny go to the FDA from tobacco or vaping. They're a far greater hazard to us all than either. That's what we may glean by this educational process we've gone through. Class dismissed.

So I'd say save the big money coalition for a legitimate fight in lower federal courts on tobacco content (no-nic, assumptions of end use) and legislative roll-back of the improper delegations and deferrals of authority in the TCA which created this grotesque departure from representative government. All else are half-measures and capitulations which will continue ad infinitum because well, that is the progress of process.

Once enacted taxes are seldom reversed.

Can we realistically expect copacetic beneficial governmental standards for the vaping industry? That we most would just say awesome, that'll work… based on what we've seen?…NOT at the federal level. Take the car keys away from these petulant delinquents.

That's our job. We're the adults in the room fighting for freedom from tobacco.

Good luck all.

:)
 
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Kent C

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Ok, I got it. I liken it to a situation (not exactly similar) on the railroad where gov't safety rules were made. At first the companies resisted but later they incorporated it as a "control feature." I'm pretty sure they had to implement the rules or they would be penalized in some manner by the gov't, but again, they 'embraced' it. When negotiations with unions went south, the unions would exercise the safety rules to the T and it brought the whole railroad to a virtual halt. The best way to show a stupid rule is stupid, is to follow it :lol:


As I've said on this and the what if thread…I'll support no enterprise that submits. Can't blame non BT biz or consortium that seeks it's own accommodation. They will fight in their own self-interest and that's to be expected. But for us that's resorting to a rickety fire escape. We've already been sold out once by tobacco. That's enough. I'll compromise if I have to on my own terms, not theirs.

You said a mouthful there. :thumb:
 

Rossum

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It's funny, I'm mad as hell about this stuff despite the fact that it makes no real difference to me personally. I've got gear and spare parts to last more than a life-time, not to mention 15-20 years worth of nic. I have no reason to be up in arms, but I am! :confused:
 

Rossum

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As I've said on this and the what if thread…I'll support no enterprise that submits.
Yes! I will never buy any vape product that's been submitted to the FDA for their "approval", nor will I ever pay a dime in "sin tax" on any vape product, and I will certainly not stop vaping. Bottom line, Mr. Zeller: Your "regulations" violate my unalienable right to pursue happiness as I see fit while harming no one else, and I will not do anything that encourages anyone to comply with them. Have nice day.
 

Nuggit

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I've had a lot going on recently, medical issues, the va, so on. I've gone from 3mg to 5mg with the stress.
Haven't had . ..a chance to read up to the 40 pages this is right now, can someone bring me up to speed real quick? Sounds like this has gotten worse....
My income is not going to handle stocking up in the next few weeks, Will I have a chance to? Thanks, hope someone can get me back up to speed on this....
I'm hoping I don't have to go all Ted Kazinski soon...lol Government is pushing too many things too hard the wrong way.... Psychological test to work for the government needs to be revamped. Damn!
 

Zabolee

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I don't want to start a ranting contest, but what would be the point of not buying from companies that submit for FDA approval? Can any one of us really admit that knowing what is in our products is a bad thing?

I know this situation isn't that simple, but nearly everything we use in our daily life, from toothpaste to medicine, needs to go through FDA approval.

A solution I can see is that we make the argument that the term "delivery system" only be applied to the e-liquid. That is where the nicotine is provided. Vaporizers have existed before e-cigs. Ask any pot head. The main difference between our mods and previous vaporizers is that ours use batteries instead of needing to be plugged into a wall socket. The concept of using a coil heating element to vaporize either an oil or solid is not new, nor is variable voltage/wattage.
 
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