^ Liked despite the fact that I'm having a really difficult time parsing the latter part of you last sentence.
FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule
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I wonder is that mean they can also ban food flavors like we get from capella and perfumers etc.. ? I think DIY will never die if it is not possible, in logic they wont right as they are food flavors
I think you're right but they do have a legal interpretation - 'intended use' that could justify a ban or a restriction, but ONLY IF they can determine intention - an impossibility - since we can't 'see' into people's minds, but something that can be used to establish 'probable cause' is the actions taken by individuals that indicate intent.
And for that to happen with regards to flavoring, PG/VG, components, etc. the current police state that exists for drugs, guns, cigarette smuggling, porno, prostitution, terrorists, unpasteurized milk producers
etc. would have to be expanded in the area of ecigarettes. OR they would promote a 'if you see it, report it' type of communist neighborhood watch/Chinese menstruation/ovulation checking - type program. Much will depend on the next election - I give it a 50:50 chance of happening at this point. Some would say that's "optimistic', but not likely skoony 
As far as work around go as we know them today that would indeed
be the case. The FDA ´s attempt to expand their interpretation of extended
use if successful will eliminate most if not all obstacles legal or other wise.
Most noticeably the old thorn in their side,glass pipes and pipettes and other things.
Regards
Mike
You know, I've often wondered why people put up with police state treats mere vices as crimes. The more I think about it, the more I realize that the reason is that it's so ineffective; that it's nothing more than a minor inconvenience to those who really want any of the things you mention.[...]
And for that to happen with regards to flavoring, PG/VG, components, etc. the current police state that exists for drugs, guns, cigarette smuggling, porno, prostitution, terrorists, unpasteurized milk producers
[...]
Regarding stopping DIY completely, it's all about the nic base....
Of course, it's more than that from a business perspective. So many small B&M vaping businesses started in the country right now. So many on-line juice shops. All in danger.
Of course, it's more than that from a business perspective. So many small B&M vaping businesses started in the country right now. So many on-line juice shops. All in danger.
BUT!!!!! (a food for thought post)
The devils in FDA "enforcement discression" ala "guidance documents" and exactly what government agency (any) is preventing the FDA from what some may feel is abusing their regulatory authority. Before you think I'm nutso which may be true at certain times of the day /lol, read this. Betcha most never saw that neat little bit of research. Try this for the back story.
So what's left?
Congress - Really! I'm not very optimistic but it's a possibility. I might sleep better at night if I knew of any previous real Congressional actions against the FDA where the FDA actually retreated on a previous held position?
The legal system - The courts - Yes sir!
Welcome to "Vinnie" in the back alley. He only takes cash so bring a bundle and tell him "Steve" sent you because I need the commission money. Call me for the secret password. /sar
The devils in FDA "enforcement discression" ala "guidance documents" and exactly what government agency (any) is preventing the FDA from what some may feel is abusing their regulatory authority. Before you think I'm nutso which may be true at certain times of the day /lol, read this. Betcha most never saw that neat little bit of research. Try this for the back story.
So what's left?
Congress - Really! I'm not very optimistic but it's a possibility. I might sleep better at night if I knew of any previous real Congressional actions against the FDA where the FDA actually retreated on a previous held position?
The legal system - The courts - Yes sir!
Welcome to "Vinnie" in the back alley. He only takes cash so bring a bundle and tell him "Steve" sent you because I need the commission money. Call me for the secret password. /sar
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I think, they cannot block or stop nicbase from being made, there is always a way to produce it and I'm sure you know it, I just dont want to write here. How are they going to ban it ? Nicotin is already approved poison by FDA and in use by millions of companies for different purposes, such as medicine, farm poison, terapatic drugs etc..
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If anyone who's been hanging out on this forum for a while doesn't have that covered yet, well, they oughta get busy..
Indeed, if the leaked Guidance is indicative of a future reality, they'll be done for. I wonder if any of them will have the gumption to stay open until the JBTs are sent in to demonstrate once again that all laws are death threats.
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There's a lot of people in prison that would disagree with you on that :- ) I think they are about as effective as stopping vices as they are at stopping crimes. It's an easier task (in general) for cops to stop vices though, but the real problem is that when vices are made into crimes, all who participate are now 'criminals'. And then much actual crime is developed around the business of the vices. One is already a 'criminal', why not do this??
When Prohibition ended, the crimes around producing and distributing alcohol was virtually non-existent - until the excise and luxury/sin taxes began to climb - then some smuggling arose, markets/"turf" protected. I look for the same in the more recent 'legalizings'.
As the Lysander Spooner article 'Vices are not Crimes' points out, vices do not violate anyone's rights (whereas crimes do). But the fuller explanation on morality is from Rand mainly:
"A man’s volition is outside the power of other men. What the unalterable basic constituents are to nature, the attribute of a volitional consciousness is to the entity “man.” Nothing can force a man to think. Others may offer him incentives or impediments, rewards or punishments, they may destroy his brain by drugs or by the blow of a club, but they cannot order his mind to function: this is in his exclusive, sovereign power. Man is neither to be obeyed nor to be commanded."
“Man has been called a rational being, but rationality is a matter of choice—and the alternative his nature offers him is: rational being or suicidal animal. Man has to be man—by choice; he has to hold his life as a value—by choice; he has to learn to sustain it—by choice; he has to discover the values it requires and practice his virtues—by choice. A code of values accepted by choice is a code of morality.”
When the choice to act - that doesn't harm others - is restricted, morality is restricted in that one never learns whether those actions are good for survival/happiness or not. That doesn't mean one has to experience 'everything' in order to have morality - but they should still have the choice to do so when no rights are violated in the process.
No morality exists without choice. To be moral, one has to make a decision to do so. When that decision is restricted/banned, again, there is nothing 'moral' about that.
They very well can throttle the nic from being sold thru legal channels.
Black market sources will exist.
Regards
Mike
@skoonyMillions of companies? I don't think so.
Edit: I just got it Mike. Just didnt read your message carefully
I hope they will not.
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Do we know how many people in the US vape daily and how many of them do DIY?
Until very recently there was no nic extraction in the US. I wonder if it's known how much nic was imported in 2014. I bet that number exists in some government trade report.
This is chilling, compliments of the US Border Patrol. Electronic Cigarettes (e-Cigarettes)
Can I import E-Cigarettes into the U.S.?
Electronic cigarettes, also known as e-Cigarettes are battery-operated products designed to deliver nicotine, flavor and other chemicals. They turn nicotine, which is highly addictive, and other chemicals into a vapor that is inhaled by the user.
E-Cigarettes are currently not regulated in the United States. Customs and Border Protection is referring all questions on importing e-cigarettes to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Importers can contact the FDA Division of Import Operations at 301-796-0356 or FDAImportsInquiry@fda.hhs.gov. See FDA.gov for the latest news e-Cigarettes.
Here is recent correspondance from a government office to congress to the effect that imports of ecig products are unknown because they are lumped in with broader catatories of imported goods. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...2YLHU5PAk0bfhOw0g&sig2=MbEUksbOhDCs9JYAAlzlKQ
Until very recently there was no nic extraction in the US. I wonder if it's known how much nic was imported in 2014. I bet that number exists in some government trade report.
This is chilling, compliments of the US Border Patrol. Electronic Cigarettes (e-Cigarettes)
Can I import E-Cigarettes into the U.S.?
Electronic cigarettes, also known as e-Cigarettes are battery-operated products designed to deliver nicotine, flavor and other chemicals. They turn nicotine, which is highly addictive, and other chemicals into a vapor that is inhaled by the user.
E-Cigarettes are currently not regulated in the United States. Customs and Border Protection is referring all questions on importing e-cigarettes to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA). Importers can contact the FDA Division of Import Operations at 301-796-0356 or FDAImportsInquiry@fda.hhs.gov. See FDA.gov for the latest news e-Cigarettes.
Here is recent correspondance from a government office to congress to the effect that imports of ecig products are unknown because they are lumped in with broader catatories of imported goods. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...2YLHU5PAk0bfhOw0g&sig2=MbEUksbOhDCs9JYAAlzlKQ
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How dare we be privy to the rules our government is making for us?
Senate Dem demands probe into alleged leak of e-cigarette rules
Senate Dem demands probe into alleged leak of e-cigarette rules
No argument on either point.
The FDA certain has the legal "authority" to regulate liquid nicotine as a tobacco product if it's derived from tobacco, or as a drug if it's not. But I think legal authority to regulate zero-nic juice (i.e. PG, VG, Flavorings) as well as items like atties and mods should still be questioned.
I also doubt that the FDA holds much sway over the businesses in China and India that do most of the extraction, so nic will still be available by the drum full over there, and as long as that's the case, some of it will certainly be imported "privately". Even if that became impractical, some people would go all Heisenberg on them.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...2YLHU5PAk0bfhOw0g&sig2=MbEUksbOhDCs9JYAAlzlKQ
Took nine pages, and God knows how many man-hours to say *We don't know*....typical....
Took nine pages, and God knows how many man-hours to say *We don't know*....typical....
I found it interesting, actually. though I do have to question the "industry experts" with this:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...2YLHU5PAk0bfhOw0g&sig2=MbEUksbOhDCs9JYAAlzlKQ
Took nine pages, and God knows how many man-hours to say *We don't know*....typical....
industry experts and researchers estimated that most e-cigarette liquid on the U.S. market is
either imported or mixed in the United States with at least some ingredients from other
countries, such as China, France, India, and Switzerland.
China and India, yes. Probably 90% of the nicotine used in e-liquid mixed in the country is from them. But France and Switzerland? Italy I could see, Flavourart. Or Poland, Inawera and the Chemnovatic nic.
But what the heck do we get from France and Switzerland?
I think I remember reading somewhere that facilities for extraction of nicotine exist only in India and perhaps Switzerland and more recently I read that a plant has just opened in the US that anticipates selling nic for ecigs.
On this news page two police incidents involving kids posessing ecigs. I've predicted that where police can enforce possession laws for ecigs they will and there won't be enforcement against kids possessing cigarettes. Scan down the page. Police report from the Nov. 7 edition
It's interesting to read that in Malaysia, after the crackdown, doctors and pharmacies can sell liquid nicotine but not others and vape shops are advised to stop operating until the government decides on new rules. Apparently there are 1,000 vape shops in Malaysia. Give more time for vape sellers to legalise business - Dr Hilmi | Astro Awani
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