FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

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skoony

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The FDA certain has the legal "authority" to regulate liquid nicotine as a tobacco product if it's derived from tobacco, or as a drug if it's not. But I think legal authority to regulate zero-nic juice (i.e. PG, VG, Flavorings) as well as items like atties and mods should still be questioned.
They can regulate it all. Even without the nicotine there will still have issues with the PG/VG,flavorings,
colorings,wicks,coils and batteries. To protect the health and safety of the people and chillin'.
when all the parts are assembled they are derived from the predicate (origin) product, the
tobacco cigarette. Separately they they are parts of the whole as with paper,tobacco,glue
and filters if used.
Regards
Mike
 
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sofarsogood

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They can regulate it all. Even without the nicotine there will still have issues with the PG/VG,flavorings, colorings,wicks,coils and batteries. To protect the health and safety of the people and chillin'. when all the parts are assembled they are derived from the predicate (origin) product, the
tobacco cigarette. Separately they they are parts of the whole as with paper,tobacco,glue
and filters if used. Regards Mike
Are they going to criminalize "trafficking" in all the things needed for vaping but once the consumer is in possession it's lawful? I'm certain the purpose of the crackdown in Malaysia is extortion to persuade vapers to accept hefty taxes on their products. I'm equally certain the FDA deeming crackdown is for the same purpose and because that's the purpose we should count on it. The grace period is so they can negotiate how much the taxes will be, nothing to do with anybody's health. Quibbling about health issues is a waste of time because they couldn't care less about that. The best reason to stockpile is so we can tell the government to stick their taxes where the sun don't shine. How many voices will be there besides mine?

Nicotine in the freezer is liquid liberty.
 

skoony

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Are they going to criminalize "trafficking" in all the things needed for vaping but once the consumer is in possession it's lawful? I'm certain the purpose of the crackdown in Malaysia is extortion to persuade vapers to accept hefty taxes on their products. I'm equally certain the FDA deeming crackdown is for the same purpose and because that's the purpose we should count on it. The grace period is so they can negotiate how much the taxes will be, nothing to do with anybody's health. Quibbling about health issues is a waste of time because they couldn't care less about that. The best reason to stockpile is so we can tell the government to stick their taxes where the sun don't shine. How many voices will be there besides mine?

Nicotine in the freezer is liquid liberty.
Right now every thing is lawful. Once the FDA posts the final deeming regulations we will
know whats left on the table. Its quite reasonable to stock pile to cover any contingency.
The FDA very well knows there will be DIY'ers whom will be very well prepared and that
there will be a black market. Its to be seen how or if they will handle it. 90% of current vapers
and smokers will obey the law whatever it is.
As of now I am not aware of any language in the deeming reg.'s that specifically mentions
DIY. On the other hand I have seen no language specifically exempting DIY. Indiana's law
is an example.
Some input from Indiana residents would be helpful. I am aware that several out of state vendors
are no longer shipping there. I am wondering if they are having problems getting DIY materials.
Regards
Mike
 
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SeniorBoy

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EVEN for those that don't wish to prepare for the slaughter, here is a tip for YOU! NIC base may well turn out to be a "currency" down the road. By that I mean, you got it then you can trade it with DIY geeks like myself and many other of my sister and brothers in this thread. Exactly how hard is it to open a package and place the glass bottles in your freezer? Please!

Prepare for the slaughter by Steve

:)
 

skoony

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Gotcha...

Not sure why there should be Any Problems buying PG, VG, Flavorings, Sweeteners in Indiana?

They ALL had other uses Long before e-Cigarettes. And they will Long after the FDA Deeming is Finalized.
Because they are used in the manufacture of e-juice. You read the Indiana thread in the legislative forum
have't you? There is nothing in Indiana's law that exempts any of these ingredients.Do you know of the
specific rule in their legislation that exempt these items?
Regards
Mike
 

englishmick

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Right now every thing is lawful. Once the FDA posts the final deeming regulations we will
know whats left on the table. Its quite reasonable to stock pile to cover any contingency.
The FDA very well knows there will be DIY'ers whom will be very well prepared and that
there will be a black market. Its to be seen how or if they will handle it. 90% of current vapers
and smokers will obey the law whatever it is.
As of now I am not aware of any language in the deeming reg.'s that specifically mentions
DIY. On the other hand I have seen no language specifically exempting DIY. Indiana's law
is an example.
Some input from Indiana residents would be helpful. I am aware that several out of state vendors
are no longer shipping there. I am wondering if they are having problems getting DIY materials.
Regards
Mike

No problems so far. The law was passed but it doesn't become active until July 16. I last got nic a couple of months ago and at that time the vendor said they had no plans to stop selling to Indiana. I've bought hardware from a couple of different vendors in the last month, and flavorings as well. I haven't heard about anyone having problems.

That is all likely to change next July.

As far as Indiana goes juice and hardware will be technically unobtainable on-line after July. Who knows about FastTech. Expensive and limited choices at any shop fronts that are able to stay open.

The flavoring vendors I go to don't mention vaping on their web sites. That probably makes sense. I don't think they could shut down a vendor selling flavorings that have other uses if they don't mention vaping. Worst I can see is having to sign a declaration that you are not buying it for vaping purposes. Likewise stuff like batteries and wire. Even possible that might be the case with nicotine base, nobody seems to have a clear idea about that.
 

pennysmalls

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If I remember correctly, in Indiana DIY will be still ok because the liquids in DIY are for personal use. It's the intent thing. When liquids in Indiana are made with the intent to sell or even give away that's when it becomes a problem. I remember asking Hoosier about this and him telling me it was all in what wasn't said in the language. I'll go see if I can find that particular convo in that thread.
 
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zoiDman

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Because they are used in the manufacture of e-juice. You read the Indiana thread in the legislative forum
have't you? There is nothing in Indiana's law that exempts any of these ingredients.Do you know of the
specific rule in their legislation that exempt these items?
Regards
Mike

So?

Funnels are used in the Making e-Liquids also. Does a it need an Exemption also?

Why would a Piece of Legislation need to have a Specific Exemption for Every Single Product that you Don't Want to Regulate? Wouldn't it be more efficient to just List the Items that you Do want to Regulate?
 
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skoony

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Worst I can see is having to sign a declaration that you are not buying it for vaping purposes.
I have speculated as much in the past. That's why its interesting to note the FDA attempt to expand
the definition of intended use to actual use. A simple disclaimer may be of no use in the future.
End users may have to sign some sort of declaration which by the way would make them criminals
if they violated the agreement.
Regards
Mike
 
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skoony

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So?

Funnels are used in the Making e-Liquids also. Does a it need an Exemption also?

Why would a Piece of Legislation need to have a Specific Exemption for Every Single Product that you Don't Want to Regulate? Would it be more efficient to just List the Items that you Do want to Regulate?
Its not what they don't want to regulate,its what they want to regulate.
What are the ingredients of e-juice and why would anyone of them be exempt?
Beer and wine have specific exemptions for DIY. Leaving them out of the e-cig regs says
more to intent to regulate than allows for DIY.Regards
Mike
 

pennysmalls

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So far I've found this in the Indiana thread...

Hoosier:
"DIY components are not covered, just the finished product. So nicotine is still fine. Once it is mixed to a vapable juice, it is a class A infraction to make it without a permit, labels, etc. Receiving it is a class C."

and then this...

Hoosier:
"Producing liquid and receiving liquid, there is no exception for DIY. If the liquid is intended to be used in a vape pen, it qualifies as manufacturing.

You need to look for it saying that DIY is NOT included like beer production, tobacco growing and use, and wine making.

Class A infraction for the production of juice without a permit and compliance.

Class C for receiving liquid from a non-permitted manufacturer. (Sharing with a friend)"

and another...

Hoosier: "
If you look at the laws governing beer production in Indiana you will see 3 different definitions. Commercial, craft, and personal use. The law as written applies to commercial production. Craft has their own exemptions and specific other regulations. DIY (personal use) has its own exemptions and specified limits. So, 3 different defined producers and 3 different regulations.

HB 1432 has one definition of juice production, commercial. Thus all juice production is considered commercial under the law because nothing else is defined and nothing is excluded. If it did not include DIY then DIY would be defined and limits set to differentiate DIY from another type of production.

Since DIY is NOT defined, NOR specifically exempted, it is the same thing as commercial production as far as the agency is concerned and the only definition a court could rule on."




So my memory was incorrect, the components for DIY are ok, until they're mixed. Then it becomes production without a permit that's the issue, not intent.
 

pennysmalls

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Oh and for those wondering why Indiana hasn't had lawsuits flooding the courts yet? Apparently these lawsuits, which are in the works, can't be filed until the law goes into affect in July. That's why it's been so quiet. No suit can be brought forward until actual harm has been done by these laws.





Which has me wondering. If these state laws cause vapers to go back to smoking I wonder if some kind of class action suit could be filed against these states? And that leads me to wondering is the FDA/ federal government immune to lawsuits? If not can you image the class action suit that could be filed by people all over the country suing the FDA or federal government for harm done?
 
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DC2

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If it Isn't Marketed/Advertised as an e-Cigarette, or Part of an e-Cigarette, or Included in a "Kit" that contains an e-Cigarette or and e-Liquid that Contains Nicotine, I don't see how the FDA can Regulate a Non-Nicotine Product.
Intended use is their game plan, even though Judge Leon already shot them down.
So they just decided to write "intended use" right into the deeming regs.
 

zoiDman

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Intended use is their game plan, even though Judge Leon already shot them down.
So they just decided to write "intended use" right into the deeming regs.

Guess we will just have to See what the Actual Wording is that makes it thru the OMB/OIRA.

It sure would Simplify things if the we could See what the OMB/OIRA is reviewing. Not Exactly sure why it needs to be Kept Secrete?

Well... Actually I do. But that is Another Matter.
 

englishmick

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So my memory was incorrect, the components for DIY are ok, until they're mixed. Then it becomes production without a permit that's the issue, not intent.

Probably so, except for nic base. It's been a while since I read the Indiana law, but my recollection is that it's quite easy to see a prohibition on nic base, especially since it can be used for vaping as is without adding anything else.
 

DC2

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What I saw, which of course was Unverified, was not so much a Means to Regulate a Product. But a Means to Regulate Marketing and Advertising.
This is a means to regulate a product...
Here is an exert from the FDA Clarification...

"2. How Intended Use Is Determined

In determining a product’s intended use, the Agency may look to “any . . . relevant
source,” including but not limited to the product’s labeling, promotional claims, and advertising
(see, e.g., Action on Smoking and Health v. Harris, 655 F.2d 236, 239 (D.C. Cir. 1980); United
States v. Storage Spaces Designated Nos. “8” and “49,” 777 F.2d 1363, 1366 (9th Cir. 1985),
Hanson v. United States, 417 F. Supp. 30, 35 (D. Minn.), aff’d, 540 F.2d 947 (8th Cir. 1976)).
For example, FDA may take into account any claim or statement made by or on behalf of a
manufacturer that explicitly or implicitly promotes a product for a particular use (see, e.g.,
§ 201.128 (drugs), § 801.4 (devices)).

To establish a product’s intended use, FDA is not bound by the manufacturer or
distributor’s subjective claims of intent, but rather can consider objective evidence, which may
include a variety of direct and circumstantial evidence. Thus, FDA may also take into account
any circumstances surrounding the distribution of the product or the context in which it is sold
(see id.; see also U.S. v. Travia, 180 F.Supp.2d 115, 119 (D.D.C. 2001)). In the context of
medical products, generally, circumstantial evidence often ensures that FDA is able to hold
accountable firms that attempt to evade FDA medical product regulation by avoiding making
express claims about their products. As FDA has previously stated, however, the Agency would
not regard a firm as intending an unapproved new use for an approved or cleared medical product based solely on the firm’s knowledge that such product was being prescribed or used by
doctors for such use (Ref. 5).

Thus, when a product made or derived from tobacco is marketed or distributed for an
intended use that falls within the drug/device definitions, it would be regulated as a medical
product, subject to the limitations discussed further in this document. Courts have recognized
that products made or derived from tobacco marketed with “disease” claims and certain
“structure/function” claims are drugs (see United States v. 46 Cartons . . . Containing Fairfax
Cigarettes, 113 F.Supp. 336, 337, 338 (D. N.J. 1953) (cigarettes marketed for the prevention of
respiratory diseases); United States v. 354 Bulk Cartons . . . Trim Reducing-Aid Cigarettes, 178
F.Supp. 847, 851 (D. N.J. 1959) (cigarettes marketed for weight reduction))."

https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-ins...ivery&utm_medium=email&utm_source=govdelivery
 
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