FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

[MacTechVpr]

save vaping = if it was deemed that 0 nic was deemed un-regulatory based on health and novelty aspects would everyone be happy with 0nic? i've been using .15 and 0.0 and been happy. My question is basically do you think it could survive without the nicotine? Pez was invented by an ex smoker to imitate the flick of a lighter and the movement from hand to mouth repeatedly and used by kids daily. And that's a statement based on hearing and little research, not fact. But stands to reason that marketing as a hobby or like flavored oxygen bars or something it could stand a fight. In my area Fredericksburg, VA we have Nomad Vapers with oxygen bars flavored and just had Mutiny Vapes and Cafe open and they sell food in same shop as vape products and as they told me that even local governments can have final say so in certain things. Its not something etched in stone and FDA regulation could change standpoint but if that's the case I think the fight starting at such a high level has low impact when in fact we should be starting locally and progressing the fight out from local to state to federal. Sorry if i'm all over the place but seems relevant and reasonable.

Don't believe vaping no-nic would ever be necessary. The FDA could no more ban nic than ban cigarettes. Not without uproar. If they deem to cross that bridge of excluding nic from vaping the entire sham falls apart. The obvious becomes apparent even to the blind insofar as their favoritism towards BT+BP. That would be the day we have the mother of all big vape-outs on the FDA's front lawn. I'm down if it comes.

By setting up reasonably responsible nic standards the FDA has arguably done it's job. So long as the requirements are not so onerous as to preclude small enterprise.

But the poison pill for the FDA is an entire industry resolute on distancing itself from the unjust tobacco categorization. The flagrant taking of an industry which is anathema to our system of government.

If such a scenario were to materialize it might be the best, perhaps not only, hope that this issue may be responsibly returned to the legislature.

We're seeing an increase as I see of nicotine producers. And they seem to be doing a booming business. Competition is a good thing. Provided the FDA doesn't pick and choose their favorites through arbitrary restrictions…

You should be able to enjoy nic juice if you so wish.

Good luck all.



p.s. I do agree with you that vape retailers should be finding the means to assert their commercial rights and protect our consumer rights at the local and state level. They mean to profit, they need to protect their investment.

 

[Lessifer]

The focus seems to be on commercial pre-mix, vape shops, and mech mods. I mix, rebuild and use regulated devices (from China) and I don't spend much. A year ago I liked the vape shops around me but not lately. I can't go into them any more, I'm toxic. You can't buy a beginner rig for less than $100 and you can't buy liquid with more than 6mg. I don't like to recommend vape shops to newbies any more.

With a little encouragement low income smokers could be mixing and rebuilding and eliminate the cost of smoking. That's not much business for the "industry" but the thousands of dollars a year saved would be a better life for the family, the kids. That's a positive message about more then just me, me, me.

Worrying about vape shops and pre-mix makes me impatient, irritable, puff, puff.

I don't frequent vape shops, and I order my pre-mix in bulk, and could easily do DIY.

I still worry a lot about commercial pre-mix and vape shops because I'm concerned for future vapers. While it's true that many could transition to DIY fairly easily, I don't believe DIY would be enticing to new vapers.

If someone would have told me that to start vaping I'd have to source gear from china, buy nic concentrate in bulk, research DIY recipes, and start mixing my own, I probably would have never put the cigarettes down.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Sofarsogood. I agree with you in that we could save alot more doing it ourselves but goodbye convienence. I was told the other day there is 9mil vapers 25000 vape shops and x that by 5 employees per vape shop we are gonna run into a huge mess of unemployment and people back to welfare.

edit i think it was 250000 shops

The states should be stepping up to protect those revenue streams. Business regulation has always been a right and function afforded the states and lower jurisdictions. They broke the mold with cigarette taxes. Now they want to put Humpty-Dumpty back together again.

Good luck.

 

[englishmick]

Second, voltage/wattage are only a small part of the equation. As has been shown a number of times, the wattage supplied is less important than a lack of "dry hit." Yes, wattage can contribute, as does wicking/juice flow and air flow. Does this deserve further investigation? Yes. Does it need to be tested for every product? No.

There is stuff that can't be tested at all. Like home made coils and wicks. Mine are pretty good now after getting on for a year. But I still have bad days when I make a coil and wick that just won't do anything good.

My guess is that if it's impossible to test something they will just say it can't be sold. So something like ProTank heads that can be dismantled and rebuild would have to banned, along with all RTA's and RDA's.

 

[Kent C]

A transition to 0 nic may be easier but I for one like nicotine in the bloodstream for other reasons than 'habit' - healthy reasons that have been pointed out numerous times.

 

[mmsjs5]

To answer about no nic....

I don't know if you really need someone to answer that question, but will anyway.

I would definitely NOT be good with giving up the nic. I have enough of a stash, of nic and hardware, to share with anyone else that wants to start or continue vaping. I have long practiced doing what's right, even if it may be technically against some STUPID law. Nic has been available for a long time and they shouldn't be able to take it away from us, but that's where they will get us. I started vaping as a cigarette alternative, and they can not regulate cigarettes down to zero nic, so why should they be able to do that with vaping?

 

[DC2]

Individual Food Flavorings were sold Long before e-Cigarettes were Ever Considered.

But not "diketone-free" flavorings, which was my point.

All the people rooting for regulations because of diketones may get the opposite of what they want.
Just food for thought regarding the ramifications of the "intended use" doctrine.

 

[zoiDman]

But not "diketone-free" flavorings, which was my point.

All the people rooting for regulations because of diketones may get the opposite of what they want.
Just food for thought regarding the ramifications of the "intended use" doctrine.

Oh I think I see where you are Going Now. Diketone Free Flavoring as a Result of Vapers wanting to Inhale them.

That is Kinda of an Interesting Premise.

 

[squee]

I'm pretty sure we lost the current fight the moment we decided that it was inevitable for vapor to be deemed tobacco.

After the NJoy win in court, we had this in the NYTimes article on the issue:

“This is a huge victory for public health and civil justice,” Bill Godshall, founder of Smokefree Pennsylvania, a nonprofit group supporting e-cigarettes, wrote in an e-mail message. “It’s time for F.D.A. officials to come to their senses by reclassifying (and promulgating reasonable regulations for) e-cigarettes as tobacco products.”

Basically, the fight was lost before we even had a chance to suit up

 

[Zabolee]

well the whole intent of my question of 0% nic to keep the flavors and as of now this is several sites selling nicotine. if occasionally bying overseas or from sites would they be tracked and marked? there is formulas to add nictoine to juice and to be honest I think if it were to have 0% nic or no vaping at all I think I could be happy. but obviously the stores wouldn't sell nic because that would be obvious why they have it... but just like novelty items at tobacco stores (i.e. whippits) it could be done... but seriosuly would yall be happy with 0% across the board to save vaping?

I know I would be okay with no nic in my own juice. I'm down to 1.5mg, and plan to be off nic very soon. But thta isn't the point. People choose vaping as an alternative to smoking. And eventually to quit all together. For someone like me, who smoked a pack of American Spirit menthols a day, stopping nicotine altogether was very difficult. When I switched to vaping, I was able to gradually lower my dosage.

The availability of nicotine in a different form is what keeps new vapers coming off of cigs. If we switch our intent to saying we are a novelty community, it may not convince people to quit smoking, since they wont get that nicotine fix they need

 

[Lessifer]

After the NJoy win in court, we had this in the NYTimes article on the issue:

“This is a huge victory for public health and civil justice,” Bill Godshall, founder of Smokefree Pennsylvania, a nonprofit group supporting e-cigarettes, wrote in an e-mail message. “It’s time for F.D.A. officials to come to their senses by reclassifying (and promulgating reasonable regulations for) e-cigarettes as tobacco products.”

Basically, the fight was lost before we even had a chance to suit up

I'm not going to knock Bill G, I do believe he is on our side in this endeavor, but I really wish we would have pushed for reasonable non-tobacco, non-pharmaceutical classification from the beginning.

I get that the judge said it's not pharma because people use it like recreational tobacco, but I don't think that meant it HAD to be classified as tobacco.

 

[inspects]

I'm not going to knock Bill G, I do believe he is on our side in this endeavor, but I really wish we would have pushed for reasonable non-tobacco, non-pharmaceutical classification from the beginning.

I get that the judge said it's not pharma because people use it like recreational tobacco, but I don't think that meant it HAD to be classified as tobacco.

I hear you Les, it's like saying a Tire is a Car....makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[haleysdadda]

How and why I changed my mind on e-cigarettes

This little gem was buried at the bottom of the News Review from vapers.org.uk

Hopefully others will follow, and hopefully it receives some press in the UK

Why can't this guy be here?

 

[sofarsogood]

I still worry a lot about commercial pre-mix and vape shops because I'm concerned for future vapers. While it's true that many could transition to DIY fairly easily, I don't believe DIY would be enticing to new vapers.

If someone would have told me that to start vaping I'd have to source gear from china, buy nic concentrate in bulk, research DIY recipes, and start mixing my own, I probably would have never put the cigarettes down.

But what if that's where things are headed? May be vapers will help smokers quit and the progress won't be as fast but may be it will. I use one flavor for DIY. I got it right on the first try. I mix once a month, a 15 minute job. My first priority is keeping my brother off cigs so my neice has a dad for longer. After that I care about the other 1.3 billion smokers and the $800 billion they are wasting on cigs.

Some terrible things happened 100+ years ago with the food supply and it got addressed but there are no regulations about what we can cook at home for personal consumption. Things change when we want to cook or process for the general public. (A church group or club can cook informally for the members but if they include guests everything is supposed to be prepared in an approved kitchen.) I don't know how many of the juice makers are prepared to operate with even minimal standards but none of that needs to apply to mixing for personal use. The government is not responsible for home cooking.

 

[englishmick]

But not "diketone-free" flavorings, which was my point.

All the people rooting for regulations because of diketones may get the opposite of what they want.
Just food for thought regarding the ramifications of the "intended use" doctrine.

Some people are fine with DK's. Some people want to know if they are present so they can make the choice for themselves. Some people want then banned. Some people say it's OK for me to make a choice, but what about all those new vapers who never heard about DK's, shouldn't they be warned.

Now I feel an analogy coming on. I'll make a huge effort and stay away from Hitler. But really all the different tendencies and strategies people line up behind are arguments about how to arrange the deckchairs, while a giant iceberg is lurking in the fog just ahead. I hear the arguments. If we are blasé about DK's they will use that against us. If we talk about how bad DK's are we give them ammunition. But the iceberg doesn't care what we think.

 

[skoony]

Can the states and lower jurisdictions adequately define appropriate health standards for juice mixers as they do for restaurants?

Indiana has. Even though their new regulations are quite stringent concerning sale,transportation,
storage,packaging and, licensing, when it came to actual production facilities e-juice makers
only need to adhere to current regulations pertaining to food production and handling.
I have said in posts in the past that this was all that is necessary to manufacture a product
that is a safe and easy to make as Kool-Aid. The beauty of it is that these regulations are already
on the books

save vaping = if it was deemed that 0 nic was deemed un-regulatory based on health and novelty aspects would everyone be happy with 0nic? i've been using .

I believe zero nic will be regulated just the same as juice with nic in it. This way they can
tax any non-smoker who started vaping but, more importantly all the many ex-smokers who
switched to vaping and weened themselves off of nic but,still vape. They also have concerns
real or imagined about all the other ingredients and hardware components. I believe there
are not going to be any loopholes. DIY might be able to survive as 90% or more of the population
will follow the law any way. This 90% may be enough to quench their thirst. If not and DIY
thrives and starts growing they will be next.

Regards
mike

 

[MacTechVpr]

I seriously hope you are wrong on the latter skoon 'cause that breaks vaping, reason and principle six ways to sunday. Not tobacco, is not tobacco. There the purposeful implosion of the industry becomes evident. No, they WANT to produce nicotine and take their cut. They want the long term control (and taxation) of this evolving enterprise as it displaces the other. Can't see anything other than that they want to keep the fix in. That I see is their weakness. How they solve that conundrum, that contradiction, would have to be very clever and in all likelihood beyond any semblance of law.

Good luck all.

 

[Verb]

I don't think the FDA will go after zero nic flavor vaping. They might though. If they do, I don't think it will stand up in court.

 

[SeniorBoy]

Well..... the FDA bans "rolling paper" for cigs and that's not tobacco. It's not even "close".

NO! I'm not happy. Just pointing out their "logic" /cough and yes, I agree with Mike/skoony. Please note: the FDA does not and can not "tax". That little gem belongs to the States/local level.

Natch, what the FDA can and will do verses what will hold up in a court of law are essentially two different issues.

Of course I don't want anyone laying awake at night and staring at the ceiling. PLEASE. PLEASE. Ignore everything in this post BUT make me very happy by embracing "Better Safe Than Sorry", so stock up and of course continue to support our activism in a manner and fashion of your choosing.

 

[2coils]

IMO, if the FDA can get Complete Control of the Nicotine, I don't think they will be all that Worried about 0mg.

I mean they would be Running out of things to Tell me I shouldn't be Doing because they are "Bad".

First they Tell me that the Most Important thing I should do is to Quit Smoking.
So I did. Now I Vape.

Now they want to Tell me that the Nicotine is a Problem.
So Ok, I move to 0mg.

Then are the Going to Tell me that the 0mg is a Problem?

It has become more and more apparent that WE HAVE LOST OUR COUNTRY. I am not sure exactly when this happened, but it did. Reading this thread is a reminder of this. We are sitting here discussing how our government is going to handle the vaping industry for us. They have their hands in everything now. So much for the American Dream.