FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

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skoony

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I'm not talking about using a space heater within the confines of a home. I'm talking about vaporizing a liquid and it's effects on the metal coils and materials that the atomizer is machined from. It might just be a bunch of BS, but this has caused it to become a topic of mention.
Well I am. A space heater is a humongously large vaping coil used in the colder climates
24/7 during the winter months. During the course of this usage every conceivable
combination of environmental factors have been encountered.
So explain to me kind sir what possible damage is being done and sources
to confirm it. Well and alive up Nordth.
Mike
 

ReacT

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My main concern is the flavors directly goes into the blood stream via lungs. A single flavor is made from 4-8 different chemicals, lets say a liquid is made from 4 different flavors, that makes at least 25 different chemicals which are created for digestive consumption only. When you eat them, they are attacked by acid and enzymes in your digestive system where their potential harmfull dna parts are destroyed before they reach to the blood stream. But when you vape them, you get them directly into your blood stream via your lungs without any acid and enzymes attacks, I've concerns if this un-proper way of consumption may cause damage on liver, kidney or on heart as the chemicals are directly goes into blood without any change.

Now, to me that is the issue with vaping nobody bring attention by far now. People are focused on particles in steam, PH, acetoin, ap, diacetyl. I think FDA just needs to test the above concern only, that will show everything. If there is no cell change or cell damage in the blood, then there is no need to talk about long term effects as it cannot be without cell damage i believe.

Instead of banning a great product, just get some people who vapes heavily and test their blood every week for a month to watch cell changes, liver and kidney functions thats it ! That may not be the 100% proof for long term effects but surely 95% and enough for not banning.

Lets give an example for V2 and DX series of flavors;
Flavor companies are produced v2 and dx series of flavors just to replace harmfull chemical acetoin which turns into diacetyl in time just for the vape world. They have replaced acetoin with butyric acid to give that creamy, butter taste which does not even close to acetoins perfect creamy taste but its ok for health. However, butyric acid is an irritant to airways and lungs, in this case it must be tested in blood stream to see if it is also irritant to heart vessels which can be considired as a very high risk, since it goes into the blood stream directly even goes to the brain without change. The same goes for citric acid people use in liquids, it is better to think this way instead of its effects on coil metal.

I dont know why people are not testing those simple things i'm talking about. These are all can be tested easily.
 
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Ca Ike

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As far as analytical testing goes, are they testing the liquid in a vaporized form out of an atomizer? Or just measuring the compounds in the liquid itself? I believe that most laboratories simply measures the 3 diketone compounds that are found in some e-liquid.

In a restaurant environment, NSF certified tables and instruments are made of at least 316 stainless steel. This type of stainless resists corrosion from various acidic foods quite well. The corrosion resistance is whats key, and why it is chosen for commercial use. The same goes for selecting a corrosion resistant material to machine an atomizer from.

I can't tell you what metal clone atomizers are made of, but if its not top quality, I personally wouldn't vape out of it. Ph balance of liquid and the type of materials that are used in atomizers are both important regardless of who's trying to regulate it. They may use this information when selecting what devices can and cannot be used once these regulations are introduced.
You obviously have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. It's painfully apparent you have done no research for yourself and are believing whatever your being told is the results. No acidic foods have ever eroded metals. They can leach chemicals from certain plastics but not hurt metals other than some discoloration. If this was true caned foods like lemon juice and pineapple juice wouldn't work as they would eat through the cans. Those are the most acidic fruits around. Pure citric acid is used as a food grade cleaner because it doesn't harm metal surfaces like hydrogen based acids can.

Go to the health subsection, CASAA website or dr Farsalinos blog and read up on the studies done. The full text of those studies is available. This thread is not the place to discuss the ins and outs of the studies that is a whole other thread and those already exist.
 

Katya

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No acidic foods have ever eroded metals.

Not exactly true. Aluminum, copper, iron, and steel (not stainless) are all reactive, so it's never recommended to cook highly acidic foods in pots and pans made out of those metals. But since they all conduct heat very well, better-cookware manufacturers add a layer of copper or aluminum to the bottom of stainless steel pans.

But since we're not cooking tomato sauces here, this discussion is off topic, somewhat. :)
 

skoony

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But when you vape them, you get them directly into your blood stream via your lungs without any acid and enzymes attacks, I've concerns if this un-proper way of consumption may cause damage on liver, kidney or on heart as the chemicals are directly goes into blood without any change.

Good lord! Using the PH argument could lead them to ban fruit flavors :facepalm:
Killing two birds with one stone here.
It appears ingesting flavors could pose a risk.
Citrus food flavouring is genotoxic, says EFSA
The premise of this article seems to be a little shaky however considering some of the science
that have have been using against us who can say how this will be used.
Regards
Mike
 

schatz

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You obviously have just enough knowledge to be dangerous. It's painfully apparent you have done no research for yourself and are believing whatever your being told is the results. No acidic foods have ever eroded metals. They can leach chemicals from certain plastics but not hurt metals other than some discoloration. If this was true caned foods like lemon juice and pineapple juice wouldn't work as they would eat through the cans. Those are the most acidic fruits around. Pure citric acid is used as a food grade cleaner because it doesn't harm metal surfaces like hydrogen based acids can.

Go to the health subsection, CASAA website or dr Farsalinos blog and read up on the studies done. The full text of those studies is available. This thread is not the place to discuss the ins and outs of the studies that is a whole other thread and those already exist.
Then why have they been plastic lining our canned food food with bp.Just curious. I am in no way questionining your post, just curiuos lurking.
Just wondering out loud.
 

MacTechVpr

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Killing two birds with one stone here.
It appears ingesting flavors could pose a risk.
Citrus food flavouring is genotoxic, says EFSA
The premise of this article seems to be a little shaky however considering some of the science
that have have been using against us who can say how this will be used.
Regards
Mike

And 700mg/K affects us when? I know establishing a threshold of harm is a constructive accomplishment. But doesn't seem much more pertinent than the risk of the baby grand fallin' out the window landin' on our head. I'd be more concerned about resistant parasitic genotoxic bipedal organisms crossin' EU borders at the moment. Just sayin'.

Vape on.

:)
 

2coils

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why hasn't BV ( sigeli ,yihi, kanger, ect..) stepped up and done something? Or have they to no avail? Seems it would be in their best interest to! If we can't vape we won't be buying their gear! Sigeli even makes a line of juice E-LIQUID_SIGELEI Electronic Cigarette -

Dimitri has been working hard to accomplish this! Check at 1:10 mark. Good listen!!!
 
In the future?????

Did you look at the discussion I linked above?

Per DVap--one of our resident chemists:

"Production-wise, the naturally occurring (L),(-),(S)-nicotine is what we get and what we use. Purification of this stereoisomer from tobacco is relatively easy and cheap.

Racemic nicotine (DL),(RS),(±)-nicotine, is available in mg quantities for a hefty price.

The purified non-natural stereoisomer (D),(+),(R)-nicotine is typically found only in research settings, and the price is out of this world."


Sorry, to clarify. I wasn't implying that it would change, only that there were talks about it becoming a must when manufacturing after all this nonsense begins. These are the little things that were discussed during the risk assessment with FDA lawyers.
 

zoiDman

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DC2

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Sorry, to clarify. I wasn't implying that it would change, only that there were talks about it becoming a must when manufacturing after all this nonsense begins. These are the little things that were discussed during the risk assessment with FDA lawyers.
I''m just having a hard time coming to terms with the idea that PH balance will be a huge factor...
Especially when all free-roaming eliquids will be eliminated for MANY other reasons...

Unless of course you're talking about how Big Tobacco will meet said requirements.
Which I imagine they are working with the FDA towards establishing those said requirements.

But this company you speak of does not sound like Big Tobacco.
In fact it sounds like some little producer of e-liquids that will be ground into the dust.

I think it may be a bit hopeful to think that this company you speak of will survive the regulations.
Whether or not they have consulted with FDA lawyers.

So excuse me if I take your feedback from the FDA lawyers with a 10-pound grain of salt.

I think the shop you speak of may have been taken for a ride.
But I could be wrong I guess.
:shrug:
 

SeniorBoy

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Ditto to DC2 times 1 millon :)

Sorry, to clarify. I wasn't implying that it would change, only that there were talks about it becoming a must when manufacturing after all this nonsense begins. These are the little things that were discussed during the risk assessment with FDA lawyers.

Maybe read the leaked doc again and note a minor little blurb on lines 861 and 862. Please! IF your friend wants some FREE unbiased advice then I'm happy to help him with his ejuice company. I have NO skin in the game! I do not bill by the hour. /sar Think FREE please. Shoot me a PM and I will provide my contact details and try and help him on a confidential basis. WARNING! I don't know everything but I know who to ask. I make mistakes sometimes but always take my medicine and move on. I am brutally honest. And yes, if he wants me to sign an NDA that's fine with me.

OK?
:)
 

SeniorBoy

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Halo Attorney Speaks!

From the Desk of the General Counsel: FDA Regulation (bolded by me)

"Now, you may have heard that some in the vaping industry have received an actual copy of the final rule. Neither FDA nor OMB are allowed to share the rule before publication in the Federal Register, and one should not believe messages that are intended to raise panic."

Source: From the Desk of the General Counsel: FDA Regulation

PST... "We are aware that the Tobacco Vapor Electronic Cigarette Association (TVECA) has indicated publicly that it has a copy of the draft final rule

Source: A Special Statement from CTP - October 31, 2015

PST #2: The members link on TVECA reads and I quote: "Download Draft Guidance Document"

PST #3: Subject .pdf is titled: LEAKED_industry_guide_draft_tveca

PST#4: Subject document says DRAFT GUIDENCE on the 5th line

HA!
 
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