FDA TVECA post table of contents for Deeming Final Rule

[zoiDman]

It depends on how they implement the regulations. Agency's have been known to use selective enforcement.
I was thinking along the lines of keeping diy'ers happy as from what I can tell they are probably the
most astute at whats going on politically. They will have two years to see which way the wind is blowing.
If the DIY appears to be a non-factor they very well may ignore them. This makes sense if in fact its true
that 90% of the population will just follow the law as usually happens.
I am not aware of any regulations as of this time that attempts to regulate the materials many have
already stock piled. They may not want to pet that dog. Anyway I am just speculating.

Regards
mike

I think with respect to e-liquids or Nicotine Base that contain Nicotine, that there will be Very Little, if any, Discretionary Implementation of the FDA Regulations. And they will be Enforce Exactly as they are Written.

It seems a tad Naïve to think the FDA would work on e-liquid Regulations for 5 Years and then just Not Enforce regulations on Nicotine Base so as to keep DIY'ers Happy.

Last I checked, the FDA Isn't in the Business of Keeping People Happy. They are in the Business of Regulating things.

I could see some Discretion with regards to Hardware. But when it comes to e-Liquids/Nicotine Base that contain Nicotine, it is going to be By the Numbers and to the Letter.

 

[squee]

The more I think about it though he's spent 7 years in front of the Country lighting up, certainly hasn't gone out of his way to hide it from the media.

LOL, what? The president quit smoking like 6 years ago. The only thing you've seen is him chewing on nicotine gum.

The man that is going to put the law in place has executive order.

The law is already in place and has been for years. That law is what the deeming regs are all about.

I am not aware of any regulations as of this time that attempts to regulate the materials many have
already stock piled.

It was pointed out to me on another forum that liquid nic has been around for decades, so wouldn't that be grandfathered in?

 

[Major Meatwad]

Talking point for the white house deeming e-cigs as Tobacco products.

Potatoes ,eggplants, tomatoes and cauliflower products need to be regulated as well as all instruments used to partake in consuming them. There are many other nightshade plants that qualify too.
They all naturally contain nicotine.

See : "www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/15/nicotine-in-vegetables_n_1597087.html"
also in article :
"A little sleuthing revealed that the user derived the information from a 1993 study titled "The Nicotine Content of Common Vegetables" by a trio of doctors with the University of Michigan."

Tobacco is Tobacco. Not synonymous with Nicotine.

According to the FDA even Nicotine patches sold are not called "tobacco delivery devices" are they?

Court rulings state that the FDA isn't allowed regulatory authority with "patches".

So why Nicotine Juice and especially Non Nicotine Juice?

 

[pennysmalls]

Which is why eliquid has been classified as a tobacco product.



So what ya'll are saying is that eliquid has been classified as a tobacco product for the sole reason of making tax dollars, because states DESPERATELY need the tax money........

But.... they are going to kill the cash cow

You can correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen anyone here say that. What I'm seeing is people saying the tobacco tax profits are what's being protected and vaping is being classified as a tobacco product so that it can be controlled/made to go away. I don't believe vaping is capable of bringing in the kind of profits that tobacco cigarettes do, at least not yet, so no cash cow.

 

[Qew]

I have been trying all day to get my call in to the White House. Either this CTA is a huge success, or they left the phone off the hook!

ETA:
I just saw this on FB, (not official, just on a b&m's page) it may be an alternative number to call.

 

[Major Meatwad]

You can correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't seen anyone here say that. What I'm seeing is people saying the tobacco tax profits are what's being protected and vaping is being classified as a tobacco product so that it can be controlled/made to go away. I don't believe vaping is capable of bringing in the kind of profits that tobacco cigarettes do, at least not yet, so no cash cow.

Not a cash cow?
Definitely a Billion dollar industry already and booming.
There are over 6-7000 Vapor exclusive Stores in america and a projected another 35000 retail stores distributing and likely more.
"http://vapenewsmagazine.com/november-2014/how-many-vape-shops-are-there-in-the-u-s-a"
The Rent, Sales tax, employee wages and support supplies needed to subsidize is lot of money alone and that doesn't even include online vendors.
There are more Vapor stores than Wendy's in America.

The loss of tobacco tax is of greatest concern so attack vaping and create the new e-juice TAX.

MOOOOOOOOOOO!

Regarding Call to action:

The first point regarding HR 2058 should be ignored but the rest is Great!
HR 2058 doesn't fix the issue, it actually gives the FDA true Power to Regulate.

Nobody is reading the the actual HR 2058 Bill.
It is a bill propagated by lobbyist as spin.

the call of action should be as it was originally started to be
"

• I am calling to urge President Obama to protect consumer choice and demand that the FDA re-work its Tobacco Deeming Regulations so that the existing wide variety of e-cigarette and vapor products can remain on the market.

• As written, the FDA’s proposed e-cigarette regulations will remove 99.9% of vapor products from the market.

• Please briefly share your personal story about switching to vapor products. Make sure to include any improvements in health you have experienced or, perhaps, that your doctor has observed. If the variety of flavors are important to you, be sure to mention that too.

• Thank you. I hope we can count on the President to protect adult access to these life-saving products.

Sorry just trying to help...

 

[pennysmalls]

Not a cash cow?
Definitely a Billion dollar industry already and booming.
There are over 6-7000 Vapor exclusive Stores in america and a projected another 35000 retail stores distributing and likely more.
"http://vapenewsmagazine.com/november-2014/how-many-vape-shops-are-there-in-the-u-s-a"
The Rent, Sales tax, employee wages and support supplies needed to subsidize is lot of money alone and that doesn't even include online vendors.
There are more Vapor stores than Wendy's in America.

The loss of tobacco tax is of greatest concern so attack vaping and create the new e-juice TAX.

MOOOOOOOOOOO!

Oh, I think vaping is big but not as big as BT. If taxes were the main goal of these regs I don't think they would've handled it quite this way. Access to these "tobacco" liquids would be easy and wide open if they wanted the vaping cash cow. They would want eliquid to be a big seller. There would still be regulations attached but not the kind we're seeing with the deeming. No, they aren't interested in any possible vaping cash cow that could develop, they just want it gone.

 

[Jaguar G]

Which is why eliquid has been classified as a tobacco product.

So what ya'll are saying is that eliquid has been classified as a tobacco product for the sole reason of making tax dollars, because states DESPERATELY need the tax money........

But.... they are going to kill the cash cow

It was classified as a tobacco product because a judge would not allow it to be classified as a drug and/or drug delivery device.

The cash cow is the cigarette. States make billions from taxes and the master settlement agreement, not from sales tax on liquid nicotine. The vaping movement is threatening those billions, billions that states have already budgeted for, billions that anti-smoking organizations depend on for funding. Why, if people quit smoking where would all these godly folks get their billions from?

 

[Oliver]

As others have pointed out, the cash cow is cigarettes. There's no doubt: $700bn per year globally greases a LOT of wheels.

For context, sneakers/trainers make about $50bn in sales globally.

 

[Jingles]

Now the switchboard is busy. Sigh.. I will keep trying...

 

[Rossum]

I am not aware of any regulations as of this time that attempts to regulate the materials many have already stock piled. They may not want to pet that dog.

Right, there's a good chance that dog will bite.

 

[SlushPuppy]

I am still trying to comprehend all of this, i keep seeing mentions of the products gone within 2-4 years. Does this mean i still have time to stock up on liquid nicotine base? If not, i am so royally screwed. I dont have the money to stock up on years worth of base within a week. Even just a year, and im sure ill have enough to last until i quit. I was so happy to switch to vape, and just over a year in, its in jeopardy. Not only has it been wonderful for my lungs, but is one of my favorite hobbies/past times. Im so ...... off that im shaking. Grrrrr

 

[skoony]

I think with respect to e-Liquids or Nicotine Base that contain Nicotine, that there will be Very Little, if any, Discretionary Implementation of the FDA Regulations. And they will be Enforce Exactly as they are Written.

It seems a tad Naïve to think the FDA would work on e-Liquid Regulations for 5 Years and then just Not Enforce regulations on Nicotine Base so as to keep DIY'ers Happy.

Last I checked, the FDA Isn't in the Business of Keeping People Happy. They are in the Business of Regulating things.

I could see some Discretion with regards to Hardware. But when it comes to e-Liquids/Nicotine Base that contain Nicotine, it is going to be By the Numbers and to the Letter.

I am not being naive. The lack of any regulations concerning the status of stock
piled supplies does seem odd. I am just speculating that if the FDA keeps the
ten percent of us who would find our own work around´s happy and out
of their hair politically they can concentrate on the 6000 to 7000 B&M ´s
plus the online vendor's. As we here do not represent any significant
percentage of the vaping population nor the vapers in these forums
it makes more sense to concentrate on the 90% of the vaping
population that would just obey the law. One thing that is for
sure is that with a two year grace period and allowing for the
time to process the application's suitable work arounds may
already be in place. Congress may actually do something.
Who knows. It's all idle speculation on my part. I don´t see
any freezer checks any time soon.
Regards
Mike

 

[FlamingoTutu]

By all means please sign the petitions, but also please, please make sure you do what the Call To Action asks for.

Trying to go back and catch up but just wanted you to know that Lessifer sent out a special Petition Update via Change.org with CASAA's CTA. Over 40,000 people got that via email yesterday. And it's not the first CTA he's sent out to them, believe me.

 

[zoiDman]

I am not being naive. The lack of any regulations concerning the status of stock
piled supplies does seem odd. I am just speculating that if the FDA keeps the
ten percent of us who would find our own work around´s happy and out
of their hair politically they can concentrate on the 6000 to 7000 B&M ´s
plus the online vendor's. As we here do not represent any significant
percentage of the vaping population nor the vapers in these forums
it makes more sense to concentrate on the 90% of the vaping
population that would just obey the law. One thing that is for
sure is that with a two year grace period and allowing for the
time to process the application's suitable work arounds may
already be in place. Congress may actually do something.
Who knows. It's all idle speculation on my part. I don´t see
any freezer checks any time soon.
Regards
Mike

I hope you are right Mike.

I just don't see the FDA treating Nicotine Base or Unflavored e-Liquids Any Different than Flavored e-Liquids.

BTW - Why are we so Sure that there will be a 2 Year "Grace Period" on e-Liquids?

 

[skoony]

I hope you are right Mike.

I just don't see the FDA treating Nicotine Base or Unflavored e-Liquids Any Different than Flavored e-Liquids.

BTW - Why are we so Sure that there will be a 2 Year "Grace Period" on e-Liquids?

The only provision I am aware that will have an expedited roll out is
the age restriction.
Mike

 

[Racehorse]

As others have pointed out, the cash cow is cigarettes.

they aren't interested in any possible vaping cash cow that could develop, they just want it gone.

The kind of profits the tobacco products bring in has been waning for 20 years, since less people are smoking. That happened before vaping, by the way. They just aren't getting the tax money they used to.


There was a lot of work done in many states, and here, fashioning local and regional bans. When fashioning his ban the gov of AR specifically referred to ejuice as a tobacco product and brought them under that title so that they could be taxed........

and that tax vote was specifically put off sometime into the future at least 2 years from now.

Why do you think that is? Because at the time there was no FDA rule yet, but the ducks are being put in a row to have that tax $$ coming in.


So all these politicians in the know, including ours who has a long history with homeland security and one might argue, is in the know.......they were just making legislation for fun, not to reach any real goal...... which is to get tax money from vaping?

Sorry, I don't buy that they want vaping to go away. If anything they will be grabbing onto it like the new lifeline that it is for them to gather tax dollars.


I've also been watching "Big Vaping" and by their actions (also spending a lot to get ducks in a row) it certainly looks like some of the well connected ones have had more than their finger on the pulse, they have had actual "sit downs" with "people in the know" and their legal/regulatory teams have fashioned their entire trajectory of product line into a very clearly discernable pattern. (one that will come close to meeting proposed FDA requirements )


I am a business watcher, when rumors were going on at my job (we were publically traded) I always tried to look at how the people who had the big investments were behaving.........not the rumor mill in the coffee lounge.

BTW - Why are we so Sure that there will be a 2 Year "Grace Period" on e-Liquids?

Interesting how that coincides exactly with the time alottment Asa Hutchinson gave before putting out a vote to tax eliquids........."regulated but not taxed for at least 2 years" uh-huh.

 

[roxynoodle]

Keep trying to call. I finally got through, and being a gabby sort, managed to make several significant points.

 

[zoiDman]

The only provision I am aware that will have an expedited roll out is
the age restriction.
Mike

We'll let's all keep our Fingers Crossed that there will be a "Grace Period" on e-Liquids.

And that one of the Fundamental Tenants of the FSTPA, Face-2-Face Sales Only, will also has such a Grace Period.

 

[Kent C]

The cash cow is the cigarette. States make billions from taxes and the master settlement agreement, not from sales tax on liquid nicotine.

Not only that, they've "borrowed" money on future revenue from MSA - via bonds that are at or nearing 'junk' status. Imagine if the 22-23% adult smokers from early 2000's which have gone to 15.7?% now, continues to drop at that rate. By 2025, IF (big "if") at that same rate - we'd have 8-9% smoking and in another 12 years close to 0%. You can do the math on the money and the bonds...

from 6/2014
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/e-cigarettes-could-stub-tobacco-110000689.html

The outlook for tobacco bonds is so dire that a forecast last month from Moody's Investors Service predicted 65 to 80 percent were headed toward default.

Last year, cigarette shipments dropped by 4.9 percent, the biggest decline since the government passed a federal excise tax in 2009, a drop some blame on the rising popularity of the industry's new tobacco-free alternatives, such as e-cigarettes.

"The only cause I can attribute it to is e-cigarettes," said Alan Schankel, managing director of Janney Capital Market's Fixed Income Strategy team. "I think they are having an impact."

Wells Fargo Securities predicts the pace at which consumers switch from traditional cigarettes to e-vapor alternatives will surge in the coming years. It estimates that sales volumes for traditional cigarettes in the U.S. will decline by 68 percent over the next 10 years, while vapor cigarette sales will soar by more than 13-fold in the same period.

NOT EVERYONE'S A BELIEVER

Still, not everyone is convinced about the e-cigarettes boom and the likelihood of early default on the bonds.

"E-cigarettes are not a real replacement. They are another tool for people to quit smoking, but they are not a substitute. To me, it's a fad," said Dick Larkin, senior vice president and director of Credit Analysis, himself a smoker. "E-cigarettes are a threat to the MSA, but I don't think they are a material threat."


This is an even bigger threat long term:
Percent of adolescents who report smoking cigarettes in the past month, 1996-1997 and 2014