I think you're right about rolling back to the stoned age.
EU UK regulation -- Discussion thread
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I think you're right about rolling back to the stoned age.
I know, PS, I'm so disappointed. Somehow I had it in my mind that the UK would do the right thing 
I shouldn't be surprised though, it's the same way here in the US...smokers (and vapers) have NO rights, whether it regards smoking or just about anything else.
I shouldn't be surprised though, it's the same way here in the US...smokers (and vapers) have NO rights, whether it regards smoking or just about anything else.
I can see your as pd as I about this turn of events. I've never seen you make a spelling error (probably missed some, but whatever).
I signed up for the UK vapers forum after reading this. It is depressing and disgusting. We just don't seem to have a chance against people with a lot of power to do as they please.
Lucky the only place I posted this was here, among friends. Yes, I am PO'd.
I would just like to point out that no official decision has been made yet, and we are making excellent progress with contacting Trading Standards Officers directly. We are also talking with the MHRA, and with government departments.
Suffice to say, Helen Wale will be getting a call from me come Monday morning, but I really don't think we should be diving headlong into headless chicken mode just yet...
Suffice to say, Helen Wale will be getting a call from me come Monday morning, but I really don't think we should be diving headlong into headless chicken mode just yet...
Very well. I will collect my head and superglue it back onto my neck.
Keep up the good work and let us know what comes of it.
I'm sorry, but reading that sidebar flashed me into a TV Commercial-
"Have you been made isolated or lonely by a smoking ban? Have you lost contact with friends as a result of a smoking ban? Do you know anyone who has become isolated after a smoking ban was introduced? Contact Attys Will, Suea, and Dueya, We specialize in Government Tort Law, let us help you win your claim.
We've already won million dollar settlements for many in your condition"
We could only wish there was such a firm! Or maybe Dewey, Cheatham, and Howe. I'd be dialing that 800 number right this minute!
Firstly, although this does look legit, it's not actually an Official Statement by the MHRA, nor does it give any indication of the date or time-scale they are scheduling or what will/won't be covered under the term "medical product/device" ...... lets not get ahead of ourselves just yet ...... 
http://vapersnetwork.org/Kate/MHRA banning letter.pdf
Secondly, if it is genuine, then peeps, did y'all seriously think they would NOT be going ahead with this ?? Did people truly believe they'd turn around and say "Sorry folks, we were wrong, carry on as you were, Peace Out!" ??
If it’s not banned this September then it definitely will be by next September – I actually hope it's sooner rather than later as the longer it takes, the more time they'll have to formulate/fabricate "evidence" and gather further ammunition from certain tragically misguided Vendors and Vapers ...... to impose even stricter controls such as a banning order not just on Sales but on Imports too ...... NOOOOOOOO !!!! 8-o
Thirdly, I bet some of the Vendors are gonna repeat their previous mistake by encouraging their customer base to “revolt” against the immovable object known as "Reality" …….
Even worse, Crusader-Kate is no doubt gonna redouble her efforts to anger and antagonise the Authorities by initiating further highly counter-productive temper-tantrums, which are always dutifully followed by her small army of brain-washed disciples ……. if I was Fox Mulder, I’d be convinced that Kate is actually an instigator working on behalf of the tobacco Industry !!
[moderated out]
PS : This may well be the reason the letter was “leaked” ahead of time – because they want exactly this reaction ……. give 'em enough rope etc etc …..
http://vapersnetwork.org/Kate/MHRA banning letter.pdf
Secondly, if it is genuine, then peeps, did y'all seriously think they would NOT be going ahead with this ?? Did people truly believe they'd turn around and say "Sorry folks, we were wrong, carry on as you were, Peace Out!" ??
If it’s not banned this September then it definitely will be by next September – I actually hope it's sooner rather than later as the longer it takes, the more time they'll have to formulate/fabricate "evidence" and gather further ammunition from certain tragically misguided Vendors and Vapers ...... to impose even stricter controls such as a banning order not just on Sales but on Imports too ...... NOOOOOOOO !!!! 8-o
Thirdly, I bet some of the Vendors are gonna repeat their previous mistake by encouraging their customer base to “revolt” against the immovable object known as "Reality" …….
Even worse, Crusader-Kate is no doubt gonna redouble her efforts to anger and antagonise the Authorities by initiating further highly counter-productive temper-tantrums, which are always dutifully followed by her small army of brain-washed disciples ……. if I was Fox Mulder, I’d be convinced that Kate is actually an instigator working on behalf of the tobacco Industry !!
[moderated out]
PS : This may well be the reason the letter was “leaked” ahead of time – because they want exactly this reaction ……. give 'em enough rope etc etc …..
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Paul Bergen issues scathing report on MHRA report
MHRA stops threat to cigarette sales in Britain Tobacco Harm Reduction: News & Opinions
MHRA stops threat to cigarette sales in Britain Tobacco Harm Reduction: News & Opinions
PS : This may well be the reason the letter was “leaked” ahead of time – because they want exactly this reaction ……. give 'em enough rope etc etc …..
Indeed, if they were rather better at organising themselves, I would say this was a distinct possibility, however, do you really think that the "powers-that-be" have the intelligence to pull off this kind of planned leak?
Nah, it's a TSO running her mouth off on rumour.
The Daily-Mail reaction may not have helped our cause, on the other hand, it probably made no difference other than to get a load of interested parties outraged, whilst having no effect whatsoever on any outcome.
I tend to agree, just like the FDA, the conclusion was just waiting on the process to be completed.
I posted the following comment to Mr. Bergen's blog-
"
The MHRA decision has restored my faith in the entire Health institution- they have no interest in health and it is truly about the money. From WHO to the MHRA to the FDA and every other Administration that oversees the industry, to all of Big Pharma and especially to the ?non-profit?health associations that live off Big tobacco money (you know, cigarette smoker money) and Gigantic Pharma, they are all part of the great money trail in the sky.
Let them eat cake is appropriate. Who cares about the smoker that they say they want to save. First the EU bans Swedish snus, the well documented, 98% safer alternative to cigarettes, now shut down the E-cig business. We cant have anything that actually accomplishes the stated goal of these mighty organizations. Sure, hundreds of thousands of people will die in just the US and UK alone, but not a major concern. We have the kids that they all so market for to take the place of the dead, all in the name of health.
Such perfect symmetry, smoke for awhile, try to quit using the ineffective, overpriced NRT products, then return to cigarettes, as sure as the the swallows return to capistrano. Its good for BT, good for GP, good for the governments and especially good for ?non-profit?health associations.
I wouldnt want to leave a product that has been used by millions over the last 6 years with no adverse health effects on the market to cut into that groups profits, just isnt ethical."
A response from Helen Wale
Source: It looks like the consultation decision has been made - UK Vapers - Page 5Tim21080 said:
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Hi all,
The Electronic Cigarette Industry Trade Association, ECITA, has today published the attached press release in response to these events. I spoke with Helen Wale this morning first thing, and pointed out that she had not qualified her remarks. This appears to have been reflected in her response to Tim!
I think they're all in a bit of a pickle, but it's excellent grist to our mill in fighting off the MHRA.
Marvellous!
Cheers,
Katherine
The Electronic Cigarette Industry Trade Association, ECITA, has today published the attached press release in response to these events. I spoke with Helen Wale this morning first thing, and pointed out that she had not qualified her remarks. This appears to have been reflected in her response to Tim!
I think they're all in a bit of a pickle, but it's excellent grist to our mill in fighting off the MHRA.
Marvellous!
Cheers,
Katherine
Excellent !! Unfortunately his opinion doesn't count for much in the big scheme of things ...... and where did he get the figure of 400,000 Vapers in the UK ?? I'd be surprised if it's even 5% of that number
However if that estimate can be supported (whether being true or not!) then it gives Vaping a lot more weight than a silly online petition with only 4,000 signatures (a percentage of whom left comments which were so aggressive that it rendered the entire exercise pointless, if not a step backwards
)
YES !! What world do you live in babe youre not Lisa from the Simpsons are you ??
Did they do it on this occasion ?? Unlikely ...... but still quite possible ......
Firstly, why do you think it would be so difficult for them to have a selective closed-door meeting, which decides to get one of their many underlings to knock up a provocative (yet plausibly deniable!) letter, that very conveniently gets sent to someone who they know will run with it faster than Forrest Gump (without checking the facts first) ??
Secondly, underestimating your opponent is the first step towards defeat - especially when dealing with Government Bureaucrats and Corporate Sharks, who have countless Billions at stake ...... seriously babe, do you think they managed to get E-cigs banned in dozens of other countries, by playing "fair n square" ??
As did Crusader-Kate ...... for the sake of Vaping and indeed, your very own business - can't you lot put her on a leash !!
Disagree babe, this kind of thing would get many people riled up, some of whom will go ahead and take out their anger on the relevant (and even not so relevant) parties ...... this (irrational) minority often burn down the bridges which the (rational) majority are trying to build its the case in most aspects of life ......
Thankfully it got resolved very quickly none the less, Im sure a lot of expletive filled emails and phonecalls were made over the weekend and Monday morning ...... which only did the Vaping cause harm .
I don't think the appearance of this letter was a good thing ...... however, I gotta say this regarding your response ...... Hallelujah Praise The Lord !!
FINALLY a calm, composed, highly intelligent, logically reasoned, non-confrontational approach, using productive diplomacy and co-operative negotiation ...... plus some masterful ....-kissing too (which bureaucrats always love!) by flattering the MHRA with seemingly sincere compliments on them being in no way biased at all (LOL!) and doing a wonderful job for the benefit of the British Public !! A stroke of reverse psychology genius !!
THIS is how to win friends and influence people which is precisely what Vaping has lacked all along, and so desperately required !! Like the Pope would say, God bless you my child !!
A couple of comments though :
Like the idea of you waxing lyrical about the employment opportunities, but I wouldnt push that point too far in reality E-cigs have created only a few dozen jobs at best (most of which are low-skilled) which can very easily be shown to be at the expense of similar jobs (directly and indirectly) within the whole spectrum of the Tobacco/Pharma Industry ......
Also, mentioning the consistent growth of E-cigs will obviously not be taken lightly by Big Tobacco and only reinforce their fears and opposition ...... maybe our small numbers could be used as an advantage here by showing how insignificant we are and how little policing would be necessary ......
Katherine, you are a breath of fresh air that instantly inspires hope ...... there is an art to persuasion which you most certainly possess babe ...... its a crying shame the other Kate doesn't, in fact you're both the exact opposite of each other ...... like Yin & Yang - Smart/Suave Kate VS Crazy/Clueless Kate ...... Good Witch of the North VS Wicked Witch of the West !!
Whilst I am grateful for your kind words, Perfectionist, I don't think you should be so hard on Kate. Without her, I wouldn't have had such a perfect platform from which to speak! She turned something which might have been a minor irritation to the opposition into an enormously effective vehicle for us to demonstrate our commitment to reasoned argument and co-operation - a total gift!
Honestly, I couldn't have done it without her! (The yin and yang thing allows me to play good cop to her bad cop - we're like a tag team, and in frequent communication. On this occasion, we didn't plan it, but we might as well have!)
When I spoke to the MHRA Monday, I had the distinct impression that they realised they were well and truly on the back foot now.... Whether they can recover or not remains to be seen, but we are pressing our advantage, so we'll see.
Never forget, there is a place for all kinds of campaigning, and Kate is an enormously valuable asset to the cause. I'm just glad I'm in a position to be able to offer a 'different' approach!
Honestly, I couldn't have done it without her! (The yin and yang thing allows me to play good cop to her bad cop - we're like a tag team, and in frequent communication. On this occasion, we didn't plan it, but we might as well have!)
When I spoke to the MHRA Monday, I had the distinct impression that they realised they were well and truly on the back foot now.... Whether they can recover or not remains to be seen, but we are pressing our advantage, so we'll see.
Never forget, there is a place for all kinds of campaigning, and Kate is an enormously valuable asset to the cause. I'm just glad I'm in a position to be able to offer a 'different' approach!
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Just realised you called me a witch, hidden amongst all those compliments! ROFL
I appreciate the constructive criticisms you offer, too. I am aware of all the issues you raise, but part of the fundamental problem with the Impact Assessment (and why the RPC so roundly criticised the MHRA!) is that it did not pay enough attention to the economic costs to the industry of the proposed action. Furthermore, in these troubled economic times, I see no harm in pointing out that this is (probably) the only growth industry at the moment! I simply do not believe that anyone in government would recognise that we actually pose a threat to big tobacco! I mean, come on, they're iron clad with legal protection, and successfully killing millions globally! As if we could have any impact on that!
Also, I reckon the tobacco industry jobs they are most concerned about are the growers, and we're still going to need them, even if we do manage to take over the world!
Please go easy on Kate: without her fireworks, I might as well be whistling in the wind!
I appreciate the constructive criticisms you offer, too. I am aware of all the issues you raise, but part of the fundamental problem with the Impact Assessment (and why the RPC so roundly criticised the MHRA!) is that it did not pay enough attention to the economic costs to the industry of the proposed action. Furthermore, in these troubled economic times, I see no harm in pointing out that this is (probably) the only growth industry at the moment! I simply do not believe that anyone in government would recognise that we actually pose a threat to big tobacco! I mean, come on, they're iron clad with legal protection, and successfully killing millions globally! As if we could have any impact on that!
Also, I reckon the tobacco industry jobs they are most concerned about are the growers, and we're still going to need them, even if we do manage to take over the world!
Please go easy on Kate: without her fireworks, I might as well be whistling in the wind!
YES !! What world do you live in babe youre not Lisa from the Simpsons are you ??
Did they do it on this occasion ?? Unlikely ...... but still quite possible ......
Firstly, why do you think it would be so difficult for them to have a selective closed-door meeting, which decides to get one of their many underlings to knock up a provocative (yet plausibly deniable!) letter, that very conveniently gets sent to someone who they know will run with it faster than Forrest Gump (without checking the facts first) ??
Secondly, underestimating your opponent is the first step towards defeat - especially when dealing with Government Bureaucrats and Corporate Sharks, who have countless Billions at stake ...... seriously babe, do you think they managed to get E-cigs banned in dozens of other countries, by playing "fair n square" ??
As did Crusader-Kate ...... for the sake of Vaping and indeed, your very own business - can't you lot put her on a leash !!
Disagree babe, this kind of thing would get many people riled up, some of whom will go ahead and take out their anger on the relevant (and even not so relevant) parties ...... this (irrational) minority often burn down the bridges which the (rational) majority are trying to build its the case in most aspects of life ......
Thankfully it got resolved very quickly none the less, Im sure a lot of expletive filled emails and phonecalls were made over the weekend and Monday morning ...... which only did the Vaping cause harm .
Having made phone calls pretty much all day Monday, to the MHRA, and various Trading Standards officers, and their Communications Officers, believe me, this was no deliberate leak! Helen Wale was in pieces, and totally gutted that the trader to whom she had sent the letter had put it out on the internet. She expressed her wish that it could be taken down, but I pointed out that it was a bit late for that now. (Thereafter, it sounded like she was clearing her desk, but I can't be sure...!)
Lisa, together with many of the other members of ECITA, and I'm sure just about everybody who cares about vaping, was pretty cheesed off when this thing first exploded, but I am sure she would agree with me that the position we are in now is a strong one. As I said in my earlier post, we couldn't have got there without Kate.
Just my two-penn'orth!
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