EU UK regulation -- Discussion thread

[freakindahouse]

Not at all babe - just being realistic and telling it like it is (somebody has to!)

Why weren't you "preparing" for it BEFORE it came about - didn't y'all realise something like this was definitely on its way ??

I don't work for nothing. I am a paid consultant to the industry, and I was brought back in (having worked on the FDA case a bit last year) in February when this monstrosity was published by TW and TECC. We parted ways on policy/strategy at end of March when Simon at e-cigs.co.uk (now Liberro) took me on, and since beginning of June, I've carried on for various companies. Others have joined us, and ECITA has been formed.

It IS naive, but not to the extent that it'll cause damage - still, there is an easy remedy for naivety ...... open your eyes and see the world for what it really is !!

Eyes wide open, aware of state of world, and playing to our strengths with our strategy.

Who are your industry colleagues ?? Indeed who exactly are the members of your organisation ?? How did they become members ?? Are people being paid or is it all voluntary ?? How did you get your position ?? What is your background, education, experience ?? How successful have you been at this kind of thing in the past ?? etc etc ?? Just curious babe ......

I am paid (a nominal amount, and currently running at a loss) by the members of ECITA - and it is for them to decide when they announce their membership, not for me to say - all of whom have decided that my strategy makes sense and they want me to do this work for them. I have relevant experience in legal work and regulatory successes under my belt, plus I suffer from 'detailitis', which helps when you are going through 6,000 pages of legal statutes!

Good !! Cos this is gonna be a looooooong fight baby !!

I shall fight for as long as my colleagues want me to fight.

Remember if E-cigs survive this September - they are only gonna come after them even harder next year (using far dirtier tricks!) ...... If E-cigs are banned this year - you'll have to very carefully persevere for years to try and get it overturned ......

That would not be good, and we'll do our best to avoid it...

Either way, you've got ya work cut out Freaky !!

It's all good....

 

[Perfectionist]

It's simple - let me give you a guide.

1. A government agency wishes to please its masters by increasing control over consumers and removing choices with a potential cost to government, which is in line with general policy at the time. It also removes a threat to pharmaceutical industry profits, which had resulted in embarrassing meetings between senior government officers and pharma reps, as the pharma people are big contributors and are sure to pass their pain on to the recipients of their contributions.

2. The decision is made to ban e-cigarettes, by the simple expedient of requiring an expensive licensing procedure that starts around £100k ($150). This will successfully remove 99.9% of products from the market. It also has the excellent knock-on effect of giving the pharma people a big commercial advantage in the new market, which in time should therefore be controllable by them.

3. The tobacco industry is also very pleased by the result and make their pleasure known in due course.

4. Due to operational niceties it is necessary to go through a consultation process before the ban is announced. This has no effect on the decision, which has already been made.

5. One or two other government agencies and officers perform a CYA exercise just in case it goes pear-shaped further down the road.

6. The ban is announced and all but one UK supplier shut down.

7. They start up again offshore and it's business as usual. Except that now there is no regulation of the products, as was previously the case, since the national consumer product sales regulation agency, through its local agencies, was successfully regulating the products by testing and analysis - but this cannot apply to products posted in from overseas.

So the consumer suffers in any number of ways: prices go up, choice is reduced, all regulation is removed, and a number of people are forced back on to cigarettes and an early death. But please remember, public health was never a factor in this decision, to think otherwise would be extremely naive.

8. After a decent interval, the government agency originally responsible for the ban starts making waves about 'dangerous illegal medicines' being freely imported. Colleagues see the benefits of stopping these imports, as the pharma people are very generous.

9. Personal imports of these dangerous products are banned, and everyone is happy (except the consumers and and all those sentenced to death - but they don't matter as they have no voice and no money). The offshore suppliers mainly shut down, except for those who are willing to go the whole nine yards and import illegally. There's generally enough of those, though, if demand is high enough; and since making the use of consumer choices such as decaf coffee or ecigarettes illegal by the individual is a step too far even for the newly-empowered Western Stalinists, the demand will be there.

10. Eventually, the public get tired of the Stalinist government style and vote them out. Ah, wait, that happened already.

11. After a few years, there are so many consumers of the dangerous unlicensed medicines that the new, more easily-embarrassed government has to do a U-turn and legitimize them. By then, pharma has a major stake in the market and tobacco have their own consumer brands ready. Everybody is happy.

There now - is that more easily understood?

Kickass Post !! RolyDude, are we related by any chance ?!

Not sure about point 10 though geezer ...... Big Business has more influence on our lives than Government does, no matter who we vote for ......

I don't work for nothing. I am a paid consultant to the industry, and I was brought back in (having worked on the FDA case a bit last year) in February

Who paid you babe and how ...... and in what way did you "work on" the FDA case ...... are you a qualified Medic or Lawyer ??

when this monstrosity was published by TW and TECC. We parted ways on policy/strategy at end of March

You used to work for the monstrosity known as Jason (come a) Cropper !! Do you feel suicidal now ??

Were you there when he dreamt up the disastrous idea of calling an E-cig an E-NI ??

when Simon at e-cigs.co.uk (now Liberro) took me on, and since beginning of June, I've carried on for various companies. Others have joined us, and ECITA has been formed.

What percentage of Vendors in the UK have joined ECITA ??

Eyes wide open, aware of state of world, and playing to our strengths with our strategy.

Your previous posts do indicate a degree of naivety babe ...... what exactly is your "strategy" going forward ??

I am paid (a nominal amount, and currently running at a loss) by the members of ECITA

So what is your regular job ...... what did you do before you got in to the E-cig gig ??

and it is for them to decide when they announce their membership, not for me to say

Why is it a big secret ??

all of whom have decided that my strategy makes sense and they want me to do this work for them. I have relevant experience in legal work and regulatory successes under my belt, plus I suffer from 'detailitis', which helps when you are going through 6,000 pages of legal statutes!

Excellent !! Attention to detail is gonna be essential ...... as will be long-term planning and very careful "risk analysis" of every move you decide to make ......

 

[CaptJay]

Forgive me if this has been psoted already - I did slog through all 11 pages but Im tired so may have missed it.
Got this today

This petition is now closed, as its deadline has passed.

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Quash the upcoming policy to ban electronic cigarettes. More details

Submitted by Derek Hollier-Day of None – Deadline to sign up by: 06 June 2010 – Signatures: 901

More details from petition creator
We the undersigned would like for the government to fairly regard electronic cigarettes as a useful tool to move smokers who use traditional forms of tobacco smoking to a vastly better electronic alternative. Right now a governmental directive is set to legislate electronic cigarettes out of existence, yet it seems content to leave the death-causing original form of tobacco cigarette.

Petition to: Quash the upcoming policy to ban electronic cigarettes. | Number10.gov.uk (petition closed)

Government response
E-cigarettes and other novel nicotine delivery products are subject to existing consumer product safety regulations as enforced by local councils’ trading standards departments. To comply, products must meet specific requirements concerning packaging and labelling of products which may be a danger to consumers. Some e-cigarettes have been tested by local authority trading standards departments and have failed to comply with consumer safety regulations. They have therefore been removed from sale.

Following advice from the Commission on Human Medicines, the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency’s (MHRA’s) independent scientific expert advisory committee, a decision was made to extend the use of licensed Nicotine Replacement Therapy products to include harm reduction. This means that the licence for these products has been extended to include those who are still smokers, but who choose or are forced not to smoke for a period of time. This would include when smokers do not wish to expose others to their secondhand smoke or cannot smoke because they are in a smoke-free area. It also includes those who wish to reduce the number of cigarettes smoked but do not plan to quit.

However, there are a number of products on the market, such as nicotine-containing e-cigarettes, topical gels and oral forms, that claim to contain nicotine and are widely and easily available but are not licensed medicines. Unlicensed nicotine-containing products have not been assessed for safety, quality and efficacy and therefore there is potentially a risk to public health.

The Government knows from work carried out by the Food and Drug Administration in the United States that laboratory analyses of e-cigarette samples were found to contain carcinogens and toxic chemicals. Bringing all current unlicensed nicotine containing products under regulation would protect users from unknown risks and ensure that smokers had products that had been assessed for their quality, efficacy and safety.

Until relatively recently, there were few or no nicotine products available, and how they were regulated was not a concern. However, the increasing availability of these products and their potential impact on public health means that regulation needs to be considered. Products that contain nicotine and which appreciably affect people’s metabolism in normal usage fall within medicines legislation in terms of pharmacological action. In light of this, on 1 February, the MHRA published a consultation exercise to seek views on the regulation of nicotine containing products, including e-cigarettes.

The consultation sought views on whether products containing nicotine should be considered to be medicinal products and, if so, whether all unlicensed nicotine-containing products should be removed from the market within 21 days, in line with current MHRA practice, or whether a notice should be issued to manufacturers that all marketing must cease by a certain date, such as June 2011, giving manufacturers a year to license their products as medicines.

The consultation did not seek to make nicotine-containing products available only to the pharmaceutical industry. All manufacturers of such products will be able to approach the MHRA to receive authorisation to sell their product. Rather, the consultation sought to set a level playing field that does not favour any particular manufacturer or industry.

The consultation was extended following the announcement of the general election and closed on 2 June. There were a large number of responses and these are now being considered. The outcome of the consultation will be announced in the autumn.

Thought people might be interesed. Again if its been posted already feel free to delete it

 

[ckc]

Looks like the UK is to get no new Impact Assessment until the decision has been made :-(

» MHRA E-Cig Decision This Month - Ashtray Blog: An Electronic Cigarette Blog

 

[rolygate]

Just thought I'd post a link here to a letter from Jean @ Ecigdirect to the MHRA. Makes some good points.

MHRA Complaint

 

[Vocalek]

Just thought I'd post a link here to a letter from Jean @ Ecigdirect to the MHRA. Makes some good points.

MHRA Complaint

Wow! Yes, she makes some excellent points. Her frustration is coming through loud and clear.

My favorite quote: "The RPC also pointed out the lack of evidence of any demonstrable risk posed by these products, which have not caused a single incidence of harm anywhere in the world in 7 years of global market availability."

Parallel: Judge Richard J. Leon of the U.S. District Court told the FDA:

While FDA's interest in protecting public health and safety is, in the abstract, paramount to plaintiffs' purely economic interests, given the particular facts and circumstances of this case, I am not convinced that the threat to the public interest in general or to third parties in particular is as great as FDA suggests. Together, both Smoking Everywhere and NJOY have already sold hundreds of thousands of electronic cigarettes, yet FDA cites no evidence that those electronic cigarettes have endangered anyone. Nor has FDA cited any evidence that electronic cigarettes are any more an immediate threat to public health and safety than traditional cigarettes, which are readily available to the public.

 

[BCB]

Wonderful letter from Jean!

 

[freakindahouse]

Hi, all,

As posted above, what an appallingly inadequate response!

» MHRA E-Cig Decision To Be Communicated This Month - Ashtray Blog: An Electronic Cigarette Blog

I can't wait to get across the table from Jeremy Mean!!!!!!!!!!!!! Grrrrrrr.

Katherine

 

[freakindahouse]

Don't count on it... you never know when an IA will rear its ugly head!



Katherine

 

[Lisaf01]

Response completely as expected unfortunately.

 

[Perfectionist]

Just thought I'd post a link here to a letter from Jean @ Ecigdirect to the MHRA. Makes some good points.

MHRA Complaint

Seriously RolyDude, do you think that letter expresses anything that isn’t already known – and already considered irrelevant by “them” …….

The prose comes cross as nothing more than a nauseatingly pathetic whine, by a nauseatingly pathetic vested interest ...... Oh no, poor little Johnny can’t get a mortgage !! You must save E-cigs cos they will save the nations economy !!

This kind of sentimental melodrama does nothing to help, nor does trying to pressure a decision out of them as soon as possible - if you want someone to see things your way, it's best to give them time (no matter how bad it is for your business) instead of trying to rush them ......

The Coal Miners were thrown on the scrap heap (even though they rioted in the streets!) all while knowing full well that it'd leave entire towns and (voting!) communities decimated – the GovernMentals are not gonna give a damn about a handful of E-cig vendors losing their livelihoods ......

If something is not economically viable, or poses a threat to something that is – it will be eliminated ...... it's called the dark side of Capitalism.

I’m sure the peeps at the MHRA passed that letter around for a good laugh, just before they shredded it ......

 

[Perfectionist]

Wow! Yes, she makes some excellent points.

You really think so do you ?? Which excellent points would they be, and more importantly, why exactly should they care about them ??

Her frustration is coming through loud and clear.

Remind me again, what benefit does that bring ??

 

[Perfectionist]

Hi, all,

As posted above, what an appallingly inadequate response!

» MHRA E-Cig Decision To Be Communicated This Month - Ashtray Blog: An Electronic Cigarette Blog

I can't wait to get across the table from Jeremy Mean!!!!!!!!!!!!! Grrrrrrr.

Katherine

I had such high hopes for you babe - but it seems you’re just as naïve as Clueless-Kate - albeit more intelligent (but then [moderated out]) ...... I suppose Slightly-Less-Clueless-Kate would have been a more apt moniker for you ......

You really are sounding like a little school-girl who is all excited by this and thinks it's some kind of splendidly fun game ...... even worse, you seem to constantly say just what people want to hear, like a spin-doctoring salesperson who doesn't truly appreciate the gravity of the situation and what you are actually up against ...... Grrrrr !!

It is disappointing and very worrying ......

As you didn’t reply to my previous post, it’s safe to assume you are not a qualified Lawyer or Medic – therefore the future of E-cigs in the UK, has been concentrated in to the hands of ECITA, who appear to be nothing more than optimistic amateurs ...... that will inevitably and most certainly fail.

Was there any particular reason why all the Vendors in the UK couldn't show some acumen and commitment, by uniting against this threat and collectively donating as much money as they could, to hire a Professional team of experienced top-flight Lawyers ??

You really think putting on a pantomime is going to defeat a carefully planned agenda by the biggest Corporations on the planet, full of guys with PhD's and MBA's controlling cash-flows big enough to exert more influence than errrr God ?!

I sincerely hope you've come to understand that Option 3 does not really exist - twas merely a distraction to give Sheeple hope ......

 

[PlanetScribbles]

You really think so do you ?? Which excellent points would they be, and more importantly, why exactly should they care about them ??

Remind me again, what benefit does that bring ??

I had such high hopes for you babe - but it seems you’re just as naïve as Clueless-Kate - albeit more intelligent (but then even Forrest Gump is smarter than her!) ...... I suppose Slightly-Less-Clueless-Kate would have been a more apt moniker for you ......

You really are sounding like a little school-girl who is all excited by this and thinks it's some kind of splendidly fun game ...... even worse, you seem to constantly say just what people want to hear, like a spin-doctoring salesperson who doesn't truly appreciate the gravity of the situation and what you are actually up against ...... Grrrrr !!

It is disappointing and very worrying ......

As you didn’t reply to my previous post, it’s safe to assume you are not a qualified Lawyer or Medic – therefore the future of E-cigs in the UK, has been concentrated in to the hands of ECITA, who appear to be nothing more than optimistic amateurs ...... that will inevitably and most certainly fail.

Was there any particular reason why all the Vendors in the UK couldn't show some acumen and commitment, by uniting against this threat and collectively donating as much money as they could, to hire a Professional team of experienced top-flight Lawyers ??

You really think putting on a pantomime is going to defeat a carefully planned agenda by the biggest Corporations on the planet, full of guys with PhD's and MBA's controlling cash-flows big enough to exert more influence than errrr God ?!

I sincerely hope you've come to understand that Option 3 does not really exist - twas merely a distraction to give Sheeple hope ......

Were you born with the ability to be this condescending Perfectionist, or did you have to practice?

 

[freakindahouse]

Just in case it's of interest, we do have a top lawyer (with one helluva pedigree!) coming with us to the meeting on Tuesday, along with the chairman of ECITA and me, so the 'naive little schoolgirl' won't be too out of her depth!

(BTW, said hotshot lawyer reckons my legal argument is completely sound and rock solid - it all depends on the political will, which we are also addressing. I may not be a qualified lawyer, but I worked as a legal secretary for several years, in some of the larger legal firms in London, so I understand how legal language works. More than that, I do not need in order to do what I do. And yes, it does help to have a basic level of intelligence - and a sense of restraint, hence the brevity of this post!)

 

[rothenbj]

Just in case it's of interest, we do have a top lawyer (with one helluva pedigree!) coming with us to the meeting on Tuesday, along with the chairman of ECITA and me, so the 'naive little schoolgirl' won't be too out of her depth!

(BTW, said hotshot lawyer reckons my legal argument is completely sound and rock solid - it all depends on the political will, which we are also addressing. I may not be a qualified lawyer, but I worked as a legal secretary for several years, in some of the larger legal firms in London, so I understand how legal language works. More than that, I do not need in order to do what I do. And yes, it does help to have a basic level of intelligence - and a sense of restraint, hence the brevity of this post!)

You go girl and a very clear message.

 

[Perfectionist]

Were you born with the ability to be this condescending Perfectionist, or did you have to practice?

Dude, when I'm impressed, I say so ...... and when I'm not impressed, I say so !!

I'd love to be a Cheerleader an all - but I don't look good in a bikini and can't dance with pom poms !!

 

[Perfectionist]

Just in case it's of interest, we do have a top lawyer (with one helluva pedigree!) coming with us to the meeting on Tuesday, along with the chairman of ECITA and me, so the 'naive little schoolgirl' won't be too out of her depth!

(BTW, said hotshot lawyer reckons my legal argument is completely sound and rock solid - it all depends on the political will, which we are also addressing. I may not be a qualified lawyer, but I worked as a legal secretary for several years, in some of the larger legal firms in London, so I understand how legal language works. More than that, I do not need in order to do what I do. And yes, it does help to have a basic level of intelligence - and a sense of restraint, hence the brevity of this post!)

A Legal Secretary - yes, I thought as much ...... you've definitely got the lingo, but sadly don't have the mindset or the down-to-earth pragmatism ...... the best way to attack this is to always keep an eye on the worst case scenarios - leave all optimism aside (you are not dealing with a "neutral" party here babe!) and focus on the negatives so you can be sure to completely cover any pitfalls in your argument ...... certain points which you seem to consider valid and robust, could easily be dismissed or torn to pieces and even used against you !! (Remember this is most likely (and will be seen as) litigation before you are "forced" to take it Court !!)

If you've done your job properly, there should be nothing they could question you on for which you don't have a perfectly logical and beautifully constructed answer - and I hope you're going to use the angles of Nicotine being in Cigarettes and the loss of E-cig businesses, as only MINOR considerations ...... these two points may seem credible but do not hold up to scrutiny in the cold light of day - and it is exceedingly cold at the MHRA !!

However, I'm relieved that you've got a Lawyer on-board now !! Praise the Lord Almighty, they finally did it !! Hurrah !! (can you see me dancing cos I really am dancing ...... with pom poms too! )

What is the name of this mighty hero/heroine ?? Which firm do they work for ?? What is their background and previous successes ??

PS - You may be very naive, but I do get the distinct impression that you're also very attractive !! Be sure to use your feminine wiles - a little flattery and flirtation can work wonders in negotiations (no matter how Mean Jeremy is !! )

PPS - Not being sexist ladies - just telling it like it is !! We need all the help we can get dangit !!

 

[Lisaf01]

What's your area of expertise, Perfectionist? Apart from arrogance, perpetual negativity, and not a small amount of sexism, however much you deny it.
Perhaps you could actually help contribute to the effort rather than undermining everyone else all the time?

 

[Perfectionist]

What's your area of expertise, Perfectionist?

My CV is a bajillion miles long babe !! Suffice it to say that I'm an Ex-Lawyer who now works as a Management Consultant, primarily for the Financial Sector - but guess what ...... yup, Tobacco and Pharma companies are on my firms client list too ......

Being a "Corporate Shark" myself means I know how other "Corporate Sharks" think, and how long and difficult this fight is going to be ...... forgive me for shattering all the Utopian fantasies you have Lisa Simpson !!


Now what is your expertise babe ?? Putting small boxes in padded envelopes while over-charging on shipping and currency exchange rates ??

Apart from arrogance

Guilty as charged M'lud !!

perpetual negativity

Saying there is no Option 3 is not being negative babe - it's being realistic ...... if only you peeps would open your eyes !!

However, I am much more positive now because y'all have gotten off your backsides and finally hired a Legal Team !! Of course, you should have done this right from the start, instead of pathetically whining on Internet Forums, signing Online Petitions and making ridiculous YouTube videos etc ...... still, better late than never !!

Even more positive news, is that the largest retailer in the country has (tentatively!) decided to jump on the Vape Train !! Tesco might have sorely miscalculated, or more likely have made some kind of self-serving deal ...... but I'm gonna hope we have found a formidable ally - for the time being anyway !!

These two things have now significantly reduced my fear of Option 1 !! Hurrah !!

So we only have Option 2 - which in all probability was what they were gonna do from the beginning anyway ...... it is now down to FreakInDaSheets and Kavanagh QC to make sure a workable "compromise" is agreed upon ...... ya never know, we may be lucky (this time!) and get just an FDA style slap on the wrist ...... see, and you thought I'm always negative !!

It's worth bearing in mind that Tesco have gone for the crappy Disposable E-cigs ...... very telling perhaps ......

and not a small amount of sexism, however much you deny it

Some people are Politically Correct - others have a Sense Of Humour ....... you are the former and I am the latter !!

Perhaps you could actually help contribute to the effort

By making money out of Vapers like you do ??

rather than undermining everyone else all the time?

I'm very critical of the (until recently) highly lack-lustre efforts being made - that is not undermining, that is showing despair !!

Your house is burning down so you call the Fire Brigade ....... and one dude turns up carrying a glass of water !! Would you feel like jumping for joy and think your home is going to be saved !?


Anyhoozle, lets all hope Freaky has some good news for us in a few hours !!