Underage vaping (warning - rant)

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Rossum

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We, meaning all of us contributed to the delinquency of a generation of minors.
If vaping is the worst thing that generation of minors is into, I'm not terribly worried about them.
 
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Pete M

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The industry marketed vaping toward minors with their juice box look a likes etc etc. What amazes me is the shock everyone seemed to display when the fda cracked down on it. Too little too late. The "adult" vapors should have self governed that crap before it got outta hand.
Of course kids are coming to you for vaping paraphernalia. We, meaning all of us contributed to the delinquency of a generation of minors.

Very similar issue was in the Times yesterday (paywall)

Vaping flavours sold on Amazon dodge rules to appeal to children

Now it's not a great article - it doesn't actually have evidence of children buying juice online for a start, and I really don't think teen vaping is a 'thing' in the UK as much as it is in other countries so it won't have made many waves.

But I do think vape companies do make themselves easy targets for the 'appealing to kids' crowd when they're doing some of this packaging. These are extreme examples and the real story should have been about Amazon's responsibility as a vendor imo.

Ultimately I think I agree with the others saying that kids always find a way in getting their hands on adult stuff. But it doesn't make the case for teen-vaping being taken seriously by the vape industry when this sort of thing is floating around for sale either.
 

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Pete M

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I've actually had a thought - anyone remember all the scare stories in the early 90s about alcopops? There's many similarities with the 'somebody think of the children' media reporting then as there is of vaping now. And it passed when the media found other things to whip up moral outrage about. I'm hoping the same will happen with vaping.

I think the bottom line is vaping is now engaged in a PR war, a multi-faceted and disorientating one at that, especially because each country seems to have its own perception of how to deal with it (from the UK being pretty much close to it being state approved to some Asian countries making it a fineable or even an imprisionable offence). From a personal point of view, I don't care at all how eliquid bottles are illustrated. But if putting them in plain wrappers, for instance, would be a compromise that would make authorities just leave us alone to do our thing - to get the 'moral guardians' off our backs - I'd be all for it. I'm hoping the hysteria just dies down sooner rather than later.

Oh, and I always use the argument 'whatever concerns you have about vaping, shouldn't we focus on banning cigarettes as the greater of 2 evils first since it's actually proven definitively to be a killer whereas vaping is at worst a grey area?' I really don't think there's any logical comeback to that line of argument in any debate.
 

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Vaping has not been deemed safe by the government. Some at ECF have deemed it safe. But big brother hasn't.

When the vaping industry has the revenue stream of a few large countries and contributes their fair shair to eh-hem, government research... then and only then will it be deemed an acceptable alternative...and then let the taxing begin. That gray area will go one way or the other real quick-like.
You think they tax cigarettes? Shooooot.

Tips, batteries, coils, wicks, tanks, juice...yeah there's a big ole pool of money waiting to be exploited.

And that's when they'll forget allllllll about a few teenagers puffing on a Blu.
 

Rossum

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But if putting them in plain wrappers, for instance, would be a compromise that would make authorities just leave us alone to do our thing - to get the 'moral guardians' off our backs - I'd be all for it.
It will not. To start with, plain packaging won't deter under-age vaping. Let's get real here, the "children" don't buy vape-stuff based on fanciful packaging or branding. Look at the product the ANTZ currently rant about the most in the US, the Juul. It comes in some of the most plain packaging of any vape product.

shouldn't we focus on banning cigarettes as the greater of 2 evils first since it's actually proven definitively to be a killer whereas vaping is at worst a grey area?
Bans don't work. See Prohibition or the War on (some) Drugs. A ban will just create an informal (underground/black) market, and all the problems associated with such a market.
 

Rossum

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Vaping has not been deemed safe by the government. Some at ECF have deemed it safe.
I'm coming up on five years here and don't recall anyone claiming that vaping is "safe", only that it's safer than smoking, by at least one, and possibly several orders of magnitude.
 

AttyPops

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if we're talking about vaping a 0 nic. flavored e-liquid, ain't it pretty much safe for you? (if we'll forget about the fake "popcorn lung" theory)
We won't know that for sure until another 60 years have passed. I mean..."flavors"? That alone probably has a million+ chemical combinations.

Knowing the impact of VG and PG (unflavored) daily inhalations of the amount most vapers do daily...for 60 years...we don't know that yet. Lungs. Liver. Kidneys. Chemicals. What if they over-watt? What about coil metals?

The best thing to put into your lungs is...clean air.
 

Eskie

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I'm opposed to underage drinking, underage smoking, underage drug experimentation, and underage vaping. I'm fine with rational and effective methods of reducing all of them. I know I can't eliminate them, but that doesn't mean reasonable attempts shouldn't be made.

And we need to hold adults accountable if discovered supplying those to minors. There need to be consequences for adults who allow alcohol to be consumed to the point of landing a kid in the hospital or worse, or allowing them to head on out and drive. Hell, we already do that to adults whose actions lead to harmful consequences by other adults, it should be even more serious with minors.

That said, I'm not suggesting a 40 year sentence for the Juul dealer in high school. As I said, rational attempts that are evaluated for effectiveness and dropped or altered if not achieving the stated goal are appropriate. That doesn't mean Prohibition or senseless criminal prosecutions. But we can't just shrug and say if we can't stop it altogether why bother.
 

dreamvaper

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    why waiting 60 years tho?
    med labs are capable to predict the long term harm of usage making different tests. Bad thing is that some of them might be sponsored by big tobacco companies and you can guess the reasons for it. Actually, reading the news, I think there are some of these live already.
     
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    AttyPops

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    why waiting 60 years tho?
    med labs are capable to predict the long term harm of usage making different tests. Bad thing is that some of them might be sponsored by big tobacco companies and you can guess the reasons for it. Actually, reading the news, I thing there are some of these live already.
    Fair enough, and frankly that's why I'm vaping...positive thoughts! Preliminary good results!

    But you don't know until you know...

    I pulled 60 years out of my posterior...but if you add 15 to it, you get to age 75, and by then there should be enough real-world evidence to see any accumulated damage/trends. Why "15"? IDK, some average that would include underage starter as well as the 18+ crowd.

    And the interesting data will be for never-smokers. Particularly if they don't inhale...other recently-legal greenish stuff... in whatever form too. In other words, isolating the "normal" vaping-only variable.
     

    raqball

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    I'm opposed to underage drinking, underage smoking, underage drug experimentation, and underage vaping. I'm fine with rational and effective methods of reducing all of them. I know I can't eliminate them, but that doesn't mean reasonable attempts shouldn't be made.

    And we need to hold adults accountable if discovered supplying those to minors. There need to be consequences for adults who allow alcohol to be consumed to the point of landing a kid in the hospital or worse, or allowing them to head on out and drive. Hell, we already do that to adults whose actions lead to harmful consequences by other adults, it should be even more serious with minors.

    That said, I'm not suggesting a 40 year sentence for the Juul dealer in high school. As I said, rational attempts that are evaluated for effectiveness and dropped or altered if not achieving the stated goal are appropriate. That doesn't mean Prohibition or senseless criminal prosecutions. But we can't just shrug and say if we can't stop it altogether why bother.
    Agree.....

    And now another mini rant

    Back when I started in 2009 vaping was not cool nor was it the sport it's considered now. Back then it was primarily a quit smoking type deal and the only people who vaped were those trying to kick the habit..

    Somewhere along the the line the 'cool bro massive clouds' crowd came to be and I think that enticed more kids to want to vape than flavorings and packaging ever have... Heck we had flavors back in 2009 right? I don't recall ever seeing a kid vape back then.

    Vaping became cool for some reason (I can't figure out why) and the craze started. I don't buy that flavorings and marketing are to entice kids..

    It's all about optics even for legal vapers. Banana Rama Juice (no clue if that's real or not) in a colorful and snazzy looking bottle will sell more than the exact same juice in a plane jane bottle. I don't have an issue with juice marketing.. Of course Fruity COPYRIGHTDMCA juice is going to have a label that makes it look appealing.. Who is going to buy it if it had an image of cockroach on the bottle?

    Anyways, Vape Shops and adults can do a lot to cut down on kids vaping. In the past I don't think vape shops really cared or tried hard to do so. Based on my recent attempt to give gear away, and the age of the respondents to that, I'd say Vape Shops are cracking down....
     

    AttyPops

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    Vaping became cool for some reason (I can't figure out why) and the craze started. I don't buy that flavorings and marketing are to entice kids..
    Agree.

    Although "cloud volume" is a factor for many...as in quit smoking help...it isn't for others. And "cloud contests" are...people being people I guess. I was never very impressed by that aspect of vaping either. It takes a lot more knowledge to not over-watt the juice and produce "nasties" too.

    I'm betting that those cloud chasers have inherently higher risks...either from not knowing how to makes sure the coil doesn't overheat the juice or just due to the larger volume of "stuff" inhaled.

    People will be people.

    :2c:
     

    Letitia

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    There is a very fine line between nannying adults and enforcement of underage use. Used to be easier many years ago when it was harder for kids to get away with unwanted behavior. Today most parents work outside the home, most teacher's classrooms have too many kids, most towns police force are understaffed, etc. On top of all that is the horrible trend of rewarding kids for bad behavior or not putting forward their best efforts. These screens most of us spend too much time on takes away the time we spend in real life interacting with our communities. It is simply easier for kids and the adults who enable them to get away with anything.
     

    raqball

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    Agree.

    Although "cloud volume" is a factor for many...as in quit smoking help...it isn't for others. And "cloud contests" are...people being people I guess. I was never very impressed by that aspect of vaping either. It takes a lot more knowledge to not over-watt the juice and produce "nasties" too.

    I'm betting that those cloud chasers have inherently higher risks...either from not knowing how to makes sure the coil doesn't overheat the juice or just due to the larger volume of "stuff" inhaled.

    People will be people.

    :2c:

    Agree... I don't mind cloud chasers or competitions... If that's the reason an adult vapes then cool beans, rock on!

    I just don't think the rhetoric used by anti vaping peeps that juice is marketed towards children is legit... It's nothing more than hysterical based fear... Bubble gum juice? I am 53 and chew gum. Cereal juice? I eat cereal... Ect, ect, ect...

    Products are always going to be labeled and marketed in an appealing manner. I don't vape flavored juice and vape plain ole' pg/vg mix but I fail to see how making the juice bottle look colorful and appealing equates as it's being marketed towards children.

    My guess is even if all juices were required to be in a plane bottle with plane jane black and white lettering that the anti vape peeps would still find something else to complain about or they'd still attack the juice because ya know, they are gum, cereal, ect flavored and intended to entice children.....

    There are some sketchy vape shops out there and when one is busted for selling to underage people, the anti crowd pounces on it.. Vape shops need to card everyone. Even my ugly 53-year-old mug....
     

    Zazie

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    I don't know if Players still package their cigarettes like this in Canada, but in the late nineties each pack prominently displayed either some horrific statistic or a terrifying picture (blackened lungs, mouths ravaged by cancer, etc.). Perhaps this put off some would-be smokers; I don't know. It certainly didn't faze the many smokers of my acquaintance.
     

    Baditude

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    There is a very fine line between nannying adults and enforcement of underage use. Used to be easier many years ago when it was harder for kids to get away with unwanted behavior. Today most parents work outside the home, most teacher's classrooms have too many kids, most towns police force are understaffed, etc. On top of all that is the horrible trend of rewarding kids for bad behavior or not putting forward their best efforts. These screens most of us spend too much time on takes away the time we spend in real life interacting with our communities. It is simply easier for kids and the adults who enable them to get away with anything.
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