Update:ny child dies of nicotine poisoning.
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I really don't want to take this thread OT but, ... I can't take it anymore...
Regulation is in place to protect the public from greedy business people. I want the gallon of gas I buy, to be a gallon of gas. I want the surgeon who performs my surgery to be a qualified surgeon. I want the oxygen tanks used in the operating room to contain oxygen, not acetylene!!
Wall Street takes care of corporations. Who looks out for the citizens?
When an LLC files bankruptcy, the tax payers pay for the cleanup of whatever damages they caused or mess they left behind.
With a congress about to castrate the EPA, Americans really need to consider the long term cost of those jobs.
It's not your grandchildren's debt you need to be concerned about, it's that they have clean air, water, and dirt.
I'm sick of stocking up on distilled water because some now bankrupt chemical company 2 states away dumped their waste in the river that supplies my drinking water.
The feds are busy enough trying to clean up federal properties that have been contaminated over the years and exposure denied.
It's about $$$$$$
I can't believe any vendor is still selling liquid in non-childproof containers. This discussion has been going on for years and it's just stupid not to CYA.
But then, the lab liquid I buy in 100mg/ml, is sealed but I don't think it's childproof. That said, I can't buy that at the corner store, where I can buy an Ego knock-off and never see a forum like this.
Off my rant.
Regulation is in place to protect the public from greedy business people. I want the gallon of gas I buy, to be a gallon of gas. I want the surgeon who performs my surgery to be a qualified surgeon. I want the oxygen tanks used in the operating room to contain oxygen, not acetylene!!
Wall Street takes care of corporations. Who looks out for the citizens?
When an LLC files bankruptcy, the tax payers pay for the cleanup of whatever damages they caused or mess they left behind.
With a congress about to castrate the EPA, Americans really need to consider the long term cost of those jobs.
It's not your grandchildren's debt you need to be concerned about, it's that they have clean air, water, and dirt.
I'm sick of stocking up on distilled water because some now bankrupt chemical company 2 states away dumped their waste in the river that supplies my drinking water.
The feds are busy enough trying to clean up federal properties that have been contaminated over the years and exposure denied.
It's about $$$$$$
I can't believe any vendor is still selling liquid in non-childproof containers. This discussion has been going on for years and it's just stupid not to CYA.
But then, the lab liquid I buy in 100mg/ml, is sealed but I don't think it's childproof. That said, I can't buy that at the corner store, where I can buy an Ego knock-off and never see a forum like this.
Off my rant.
Yeah. I was pretty disgusted when I watched it, quite awhile after it happened and the media had discredited her. That's what happens when you're a human being up against big business, which is exactly where we are with BT and BP.
I'm really trying to see your point in this, I really amBtw, I am familiar with the incident and have recapped it.
The way I see it is:
It's coffee, if it didn't burn through the cup, crush in her hand or disintegrate, there is no case....
I'm sorry, but who's fault is that? Would you take water you just made for tea or coffee, put it in a Styrofoam cup, then put it in-between your legs? I don't see how McDonald's is responsible for protecting people from doing rather stupid activities with beverages that are intended to be hot The reason McDonald's made coffee at those temps was because most people tend to transport the item before consumption. When does that become a personal responsibility issue? I don't even like McDonald's, in more ways than 1. At the same time, I just don't see how this was their fault. Especially to the tune of 2.9 million dollars
You need to do some more research about that legend. McDonalds got exactly what they deserved. They knew the coffee was too hot and didn't do a damn thing about it.
Liebeck v. McDonald's Restaurants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
From the wikipedia page you linked to:
So, the coffee was/is too hot, she got burned. What resulted is stronger warning labels, not an adjustment in the serving temperature of the coffee. Where is the improvement? This isn't exactly a direct correlation to the case here, not everyone knows the potential toxicity of nicotine in liquid form, everyone should know that hot coffee is hot and a larger warning statement of that fact doesn't really help anyone. Take that as an indication of what regulation can accomplish though. Instead of saying "you can't serve coffee hot enough to cause 3rd degree burns" you get "you must put a warning on your cups telling people that hot coffee is hot."
Let's keep this on topic folks...this is not the McDonald's Coffee is Too Dang Hot thread.
Thank you
Still Doesn't Answer my Question.
Just seems like your Hypothetical Situation lends much more to the argument that there is a Need for Some Regulatory oversight.
And I know that you are in Favor of No FDA Regulations. And believe that there should be No Age Limits for people to buy e-Liquids which contain Nicotine.
Are you aware of how something like Ham Radio is regulated? What are the age requirements etc? (and no, it's not safe either, you can kill yourself or injure others or severely disrupt communications around).
How does something like Ham Radio relate to e-Liquids that contain Nicotine?
Sure, we can make a Comparison between e-Liquids and Anything. But is it Meaningful?
And I think there comes a Point where the Discussion needs to Turn from Should or Shouldn't there be Any FDA Regulations? To since there will be FDA Regulations, which Regulations are Inevitable? Which are Expectable? And which would be Non-Expectable and needs to be Fought.
I don't have a Problem with CRP. And see that it Can prevent an amount of Accidental Poisoning. Not All. But a Percentage.
But the Main Reason I favor CRP is because it tries to Shifts the Responsibility back to where it Should be. And that is with the Parent or Person who is Overseeing the Child.
They can both be lethal if you don't know what you're doing. And innocuous and pleasurable if you do.
There is a mindset that sees any opening to control behavior under the guise of 'safety' will take any situation, substance, context of anything in the behavior that they are attempting to control and attempt to put such behavior and the substances/actions regarding it under law. So these people actually view the world as you do here - as an 'opportunity' for even more control.
There's history on this. Butter to margarine back to butter. Trans fats to "vegan" fats back to trans fats. Cigarettes to 'light cigarettes' back to regular level of nicotine cigarettes. Regular child pajamas to 'flame ......ant' pajamas to cancer causing flame ......ant pajamas back to regular child pajamas. Eggs create cholesterol - wait, no they don't. Low fat complex carbohydrate diets make skinny people - wait, that's responsible for our obesity epidemic. Incandescent light bulbs to energy efficient squiggly fluorescences that need a hazmat crew for a broken light.
In comparison take what we've done here - see the Dangerous cartos thread. See the battery explosions theads. See the flavoring threads. See some of the charger threads and the DIY threads that have moved either dangerous or questionable practices and substances out of use and have influenced the bigger ecig vendors (and as a result of 'making that market' have affected the wider vendor market) from cartos to clearos, from certain fillers to none, certain wicks to safer wicks, no glue in component, discontinued use of certain metals and plastics toward pressure fitting and better plastics and pyrex. From burning gunky coils in subohm to rDNA-40 temp controls without any regulatory agency sticking their nose in our and our vendors' business..... UNTIL that mindset mentioned above got involved. And the result of that very well could send people back to cigarettes (where some of that mindset is saying cigs are safer than ecigs and convincing media that's the case) or where we END all of those actions we've taken to make the products safer through innovation by freezing innovation either at Feb 2007 or the more recent 2015 proposal that would freeze many of the actions taken but prevent further safety and efficient and effective means for ecigs.
So no.... jmans hypothetical doesn't lend itself to the FDA regulations he rejects. Perhaps some 'market correction' but not the regulatory oversight you and others above have promoted by gov't. In socialist and communist countries that love regulation end up having the worst air and water pollution and general squalor that is talked about above -just the opposite of their view of the world. And the cleanest countries are the free market or 'mixed' economies, and even then the more 'mixed' they get away from "free", more pollution follows - and loss of rights and freedom as well.
OMG, don't go to second or third level "mechanics" of a concept that is only a superficial perception to some - you'll confuse them
If that team who Tested nicotine levels in Salt Lake City had found Harmful Chemicals leaching into e-Liquids due to Improper Plastics Containers being used, there would have Swift and Decisive Action taken.
The Concept of "Self-Regulation" of Any Product that the General Population puts into their bodies is a great Hypothetical Topic to sit around and Discuss. But the Reality is that in the USA, it Isn't going to even be a Remote Possibility for e-Liquids that contain Nicotine.
I think fighting CRP is a Wasted Effort. I just don't sell any Viable Argument that could be made to the FDA, Senators or the General Public that would be very compelling.
The introduction of CRP into this incident is CR_P. The "observation" (read 'excuse/justification' not to make this a child endangerment/murder case) that there was no 'child proof cap' OR what I suspect, the absence of any cap at all, when the kid got the bottle, was to, intended or not, direct the focus on ecigs rather than where it should have been - on the parents. Is it 'sad'?- absolutely, but it approaches the insane comments a while back of feeling sorry for the Menendez brothers because now they are 'orphans'
As far as off topic comments goes, any further discussion on CRP on this thread should be deleted, because it had nothing whatsoever to do with what happened with a kid who would be incapable of unscrewing an regular cap.
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As a veteran of "candlepowerforums" I can attest that this is an old issue that predates vaping. What happened there is that some volunteers armed with knowledge, time, multimeters, IR cameras etc undertook some serious testing of the available products and the duds were culled out. It has become the most comprehensive test site regarding chargers and batteries. There was no need for any government agency to regulate flashlights. Unfortunately e-liquids testing is not affordable / approachable by amateurs otherwise it would had been done by now. What we really need is more testing / information.
What would you chose:
A) sweeping regulations adopted without any relevant testing / scientific support
B) thorough testing and dissemination of results to the interested parties
I'd rather go for B). If government wants to spend money on vaping, please invest them in studies first and only later in regulations if any are needed.
The introduction of CRP into this incident is CR_P. The "observation" (read 'excuse/justification' not to make this a child endangerment/murder case) that there was no 'child proof cap' OR what I suspect, the absence of any cap at all, when the kid got the bottle, was to, intended or not, direct the focus on ecigs rather than where it should have been - on the parents. Is it 'sad' - absolutely, but it approaches the insane comments a while back of feeling sorry for the Menendez brothers because now they are 'orphans'
As far as off topic comments goes, any further discussion on CRP on this thread should be deleted, because it had nothing whatsoever to do with what happened with a kid who would be incapable of unscrewing an regular cap.
Nobody said there was such thing as a "Child Proof" cap. At least I didn't.
As to Deleting references to CRP in this Thread because they are Off Topic. Really?
Seems like it is Right On Point. And Very Related to this Thread. Couldn't think of where CRP would not be More Relevant that in a Thread where a Child Dies and an e-Liquid was involved.
I ain't cornfused. But I'm afraid I'll have to hear the official cause of death from the autopsy before I will even believe that is what indeed killed the poor child.
Too much yappin' without the proof.
Too much yappin' without the proof.
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