Using Citric Acid in DIY

[Rossum]

I thought a little about this thread today...IIRC, a few years ago several DIYers suggested adding lemon juice (not from the plastic lemon or green bottle) to recipes...just a few drops in say, a 15ml test batch. I tried it, but it didn't seem to make a difference so I stopped doing it. Has anyone else tried this? Results?

Yes, I did that for a short time. I kinda liked it, but I didn't like how it gunked up my my coils and wicks, presumably due to the sugars in lemon juice. I then tried citric acid primarily as an alternative to lemon juice.

Now this gunking effect needs to be put in context. I vape a lot of unflavored juice, which is intrinsically easier on wicks and coils than any flavored juice. Adding a bit of lemon juice to unflavored certainly doesn't produce gunking as bad as say, a NET.

Oh, I was using 1 drop per 10ml.

 

[Stoneface]

Yes, I did that for a short time. I kinda liked it, but I didn't like how it gunked up my my coils and wicks, presumably due to the sugars in lemon juice. I then tried citric acid primarily as an alternative to lemon juice.

Now this gunking effect needs to be put in context. I vape a lot of unflavored juice, which is intrinsically easier on wicks and coils than any flavored juice. Adding a bit of lemon juice to unflavored certainly doesn't produce gunking as bad as say, a NET.

Oh, I was using 1 drop per 10ml.

I don't recall hearing that as an issue way back when, but I certainly believe that it could be a problem. There was also some discussion that organic/natural flavorings could burn in the juice and actually be worse than artificial flavorings. I'm not a doc, so I dunno.

I've been vaping close to unflavored (lightly flavored) nic for a couple years now, but I am starting to crave a bit more flavor these days.

 

[ChelsB]

@ChelsB and @Sugar_and_Spice...are either of you planning on trying adding citric acid to a recipe? It would be interesting to hear a comparison with nic salts. I haven't tried them yet, but am considering buying some from Nic River or the Nude Nicotine Smooth.

Yes, I’m definitely going to try this out!

 

[ChelsB]

After I mixed mine, I did a small drop on the finger to taste. That's how I knew it was really strong since I only used 5%. What pct did you mix at?

I only used it at 4% (single flavor recipe). Obviously, I need to add more flavoring.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

I only used it at 4% (single flavor recipe). Obviously, I need to add more flavoring.

My buttermint has toned down a little as it continues to age. Given that you use all vg, that requires more flavoring as it is harder for flavors to blossom in all vg mixes.

 

[ChelsB]

My buttermint has toned down a little as it continues to age. Given that you use all vg, that requires more flavoring as it is harder for flavors to blossom in all vg mixes.

Do you think I should bump it up to say 7 or 8%?

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Do you think I should bump it up to say 7 or 8%?

Yes, that would surely improve your ability to taste the juice. I think the suggested usage on the web site said starting at 5% so you could easily double it before you are finished. But I would go slow, giving it a few days to settle at the new level of flavor.

 

[ChelsB]

Yes, I did that for a short time. I kinda liked it, but I didn't like how it gunked up my my coils and wicks, presumably due to the sugars in lemon juice. I then tried citric acid primarily as an alternative to lemon juice.

Now this gunking effect needs to be put in context. I vape a lot of unflavored juice, which is intrinsically easier on wicks and coils than any flavored juice. Adding a bit of lemon juice to unflavored certainly doesn't produce gunking as bad as say, a NET.

Oh, I was using 1 drop per 10ml.

So you're saying that you've tried both and prefer citric acid over lemon juice? Was there a major difference in taste? I imagine you'd definitely be able to tell better than I as you regularly vape unflavored and I regularly vape super-flavored juices (i.e., over 20% total flavor percentage)

 

[Rossum]

So you're saying that you've tried both and prefer citric acid over lemon juice? Was there a major difference in taste? I imagine you'd definitely be able to tell better than I as you regularly vape unflavored and I regularly vape super-flavored juices (i.e., over 20% total flavor percentage)

Oh, I liked the way lemon juice tasted, but I think this was primarily due to the other components in lemon juice (sugars and who knows what else). IMO, straight citric acid has less of a taste. I think it mostly toned down the bite of the nic a little.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Did I miss something? It's my understanding the CA is used to create nic salts and is one of the ways it is done commercially. Basically to DIY using CA is to create your own nic salts as opposed to buying it from vendors? Is this correct? Anyone?

 

[kas122461]

Did I miss something? It's my understanding the CA is used to create nic salts and is one of the ways it is done commercially. Basically to DIY using CA is to create your own nic salts as opposed to buying it from vendors? Is this correct? Anyone?

The first time I had heard of it, being used was in a mix to stabilize a flavoring, only recently that I have heard of it being used for the Nic salts.

KAS

 

[AzPlumber]

Did I miss something? It's my understanding the CA is used to create nic salts and is one of the ways it is done commercially. Basically to DIY using CA is to create your own nic salts as opposed to buying it from vendors? Is this correct? Anyone?

Sugar, I believe that is correct. When we started using it a few years ago we had no idea it was creating nic salts. We were just looking for flavor enhancing.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Yes, I’m definitely going to try this out!

@Stoneface
Trying to answer your question

As am replenishing my adv ejuice I am using the Nic Salts that I purchased from Nic River. I Have several mixes steeping, but the only one I am currently using is the new flavor from OSDIY Succulent Strawberry which I have never made before. So, as of right now, I don't have any to compare. I can say I am reaching for this flavor quite a bit, but can't say whether its because the flavor is delicious,or if it is the Nic Salt. Time will tell.

 

[IDJoel]

Did I miss something? It's my understanding the CA is used to create nic salts and is one of the ways it is done commercially. Basically to DIY using CA is to create your own nic salts as opposed to buying it from vendors? Is this correct? Anyone?

Kind of my understanding too; old conversations in the TFA thread talked about using lemon juice (fresh or concentrate; both containing citric acid), or vinegar (containing acetic acid); for flavor stabilization, adding "brightness" to fruits, and smoothing out harsh notes. The problem seemed to be that the effects were rather temporary (in regards to flavor), and tended to aggravate flavor fade. I experimented briefly but found no lasting value. I quickly abandoned the practice.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Do you think I should bump it up to say 7 or 8%?

I just upped the ButterMint to 8%. yummy....

 

[ChelsB]

@Stoneface
Trying to answer your question

As am replenishing my adv ejuice I am using the Nic Salts that I purchased from Nic River. I Have several mixes steeping, but the only one I am currently using is the new flavor from OSDIY Succulent Strawberry which I have never made before. So, as of right now, I don't have any to compare. I can say I am reaching for this flavor quite a bit, but can't say whether its because the flavor is delicious,or if it is the Nic Salt. Time will tell.

I just tried succulent strawberry for the first time yesterday. It’s the only strawberry I like!

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

pH is the key.


I will also say that the type of acid used to protonate the nic makes a big difference in taste and physiological sensation. While I find CA to be fairly neutral, I find the Nic River nic salts to be a bit unpleasant. I dont feel CA in my lungs, but I do feel Nic River's in my lungs, and I am not talking about throat hit, but rather specifically in my lungs.

Mike, I am starting to agree with the feeling of NR nic salts in my lungs. Last couple of days I have begun to notice an awareness of feeling strange(in the lungs) while I am using my one flavor that contains nic salts. I do plan to give the CA a try. I do not plan to keep using NR nic salts. Other than the feeling strange, I do really love what the nic salt is doing to my vape. I had forgotten you mentioned this and came back to this thread to refresh my memory on how to use CA and try to figure out a formula for the different mg's. According to Vermont CA solution 4 parts(ml)glycerol to 1 gram(ml) of CA it suggests around a 20% solution. But then in looking at how he is making his nic base, he then further dilutes it down by 17.9ml in 60mg for 100ml volume with distilled water. And then of course, you further dilute it when making your mixes so by then my head begins to hurt. lol In the end, I think I came up with something like adding 0.02ml of CA base to my 3mg nic base when mixing my ejuice flavors. I am really thinking that your PH testing is the best way of knowing how much to add. That doesn't make my head hurt. lol

Thanks so much for providing this info. It's greatly appreciated.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Mike, I am starting to agree with the feeling of NR nic salts in my lungs. Last couple of days I have begun to notice an awareness of feeling strange(in the lungs) while I am using my one flavor that contains nic salts. I do plan to give the CA a try. I do not plan to keep using NR nic salts. Other than the feeling strange, I do really love what the nic salt is doing to my vape. I had forgotten you mentioned this and came back to this thread to refresh my memory on how to use CA and try to figure out a formula for the different mg's. According to Vermont CA solution 4 parts(ml)glycerol to 1 gram(ml) of CA it suggests around a 20% solution. But then in looking at how he is making his nic base, he then further dilutes it down by 17.9ml in 60mg for 100ml volume with distilled water. And then of course, you further dilute it when making your mixes so by then my head begins to hurt. lol In the end, I think I came up with something like adding 0.02ml of CA base to my 3mg nic base when mixing my ejuice flavors. I am really thinking that your PH testing is the best way of knowing how much to add. That doesn't make my head hurt. lol

Thanks so much for providing this info. It's greatly appreciated.

I am going to amend my previous statement^^^^^^^ until I do further testing. The one flavor I have been using NR nic salts with is the Succulent Strawberry from OSDIY. I have made up another bottle of SS using just my regular nic to see if it really is the nic salts or maybe the new flavoring. Results to follow.

 

[pwmeek]

From an older (currently locked) thread:
pH values and harshness of eliquid

Making nicotine more potent
"Increasing the pH of a medium in which nicotine is delivered increases the physiological effect of the nicotine by increasing the ratio of free base to acid salt form, the free base form being more readily transported across physiological membranes. We are pursuing this project with the eventual goal of lowering the total nicotine present in smoke while increasing the physiological effect of the nicotine which is present, so that no physiological effect is lost on nicotine reduction."23(Liggett 1971)
​

So, this seems to say that adding acid (lowering pH) weakens the rush of the nicotine by slowing its absorption. Hardly what I'm looking for, since I've already raised my nicotine level in my ADV to 65 mg/ml. Any higher and I might as well vape plain nic base.

Before I went totally flavorless (don't miss flavors at all) I used to add about 1% of Ultra Sour (40% malic acid in PG) for making my e-juices sour or tart. I wonder if it was also reducing the nicotine-rush-effectiveness of my e-juices?

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

From an older (currently locked) thread:
pH values and harshness of eliquid

Making nicotine more potent
"Increasing the pH of a medium in which nicotine is delivered increases the physiological effect of the nicotine by increasing the ratio of free base to acid salt form, the free base form being more readily transported across physiological membranes. We are pursuing this project with the eventual goal of lowering the total nicotine present in smoke while increasing the physiological effect of the nicotine which is present, so that no physiological effect is lost on nicotine reduction."23(Liggett 1971)
​

So, this seems to say that adding acid (lowering pH) weakens the rush of the nicotine by slowing its absorption. Hardly what I'm looking for, since I've already raised my nicotine level in my ADV to 65 mg/ml. Any higher and I might as well vape plain nic base.

Before I went totally flavorless (don't miss flavors at all) I used to add about 1% of Ultra Sour (40% malic acid in PG) for making my e-juices sour or tart. I wonder if it was also reducing the nicotine-rush-effectiveness of my e-juices?

That is not what I read at all. They seem to say that you should be getting the same effects on lower amounts of nicotine by using nic salts. I see nothing that suggests slowing its absorption.