Using Citric Acid in DIY

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mikepetro

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pH is the key.

It takes more acid to protonate 24mg of nic, than it does to protonate 6mg of nic. That why it is not as simple as saying just add X% to your mix, unless you have worked it out for a specific nic strength and always use that strength.

I use a pH of 7.5 because I want to boost the nic level in a stealth Pod Mod. I was shooting for maximum nic strength. The idea being that I can get a significant nic fix with one small stealth hit.

Vermont Vapors used a pH of 8ish, and to my knowledge they used it in all their mixes. Their intent was to smooth the harshness of the nic, and reduce the nic odor. Adam understood well the effects of pH on a juice, but in his era they just werent calling it "salts" yet.

Now both of the above are with unflavored nic. Once you add flavorings it changes everything, and the change is very flavor specific. Some flavorings change the pH as well. Some flavorings might taste great at a pH of 10, but lousy at a pH of 8, and vice versa.

So, take my 7.5 pH example, if I were to add flavorings that also reduce the pH to that, it could result in sour notes in the final flavor. Conversely, some flavorings raise pH, and the acid helps balance them out. Think about any recipe that calls for lemon juice, and what the lemon juice did towards the final flavor, in some mixes it brightened it, and it others it smoothed it out. Well, lemon juice is loaded with acid.

I will also say that the type of acid used to protonate the nic makes a big difference in taste and physiological sensation. While I find CA to be fairly neutral, I find the Nic River nic salts to be a bit unpleasant. I dont feel CA in my lungs, but I do feel Nic River's in my lungs, and I am not talking about throat hit, but rather specifically in my lungs.

All of that being said, I use regular freebase nic most of the time as I like the throat hit of it. Heck, I even like a small amount of black pepper notes in my unflavored nic, ie somewhat harsher nic. The only time I reach for the nic salts is if I want to boost the nic level above my norm for whatever reason.
 
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Rossum

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Yeah... I always wondered if a Red Light started to Blink somewhere in an Underground NSA Facility when we 1st started to talk about it.

LOL

Disclaimer: No Illegal or Illicit Drugs were Used In or During the Creation of this Post.
Meh, we didn't start. There was an article in the Washington Times titled "Nightmare of crack nicotine" (Google it) published in 2002 -- the year before Hon Lik invented vaping. The premise was that if taxes on tobacco were raised too much, someone would figure out that it's incredibly cheap to make freebase nic, which would then be used as a means of avoiding those taxes....
 

zoiDman

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Meh, we didn't start. There was an article in the Washington Times titled "Nightmare of crack nicotine" (Google it) published in 2002 -- the year before Hon Lik invented vaping. The premise was that if taxes on tobacco were raised too much, someone would figure out that it's incredibly cheap to make freebase nic, which would then be used as a means of avoiding those taxes....

It's Funny how History has a way of foreseeing the Future sometimes.

I switched for Health Reasons. But Saving a Boat Load of Money sure made it a Win - Win.
 

Rossum

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I started vaping to save money. Not too sure it's working out that way.:rolleyes:
Give it some time.

The amount I've spent on consumables this year (not counting nic base that I bought for "science experiments") is: $0.00.

The amount I've saved over the (few days shy of) 4 years I've been vaping by not buying cigs is in excess of $17,500!
 

Stoneface

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Give it some time.

The amount I've spent on consumables this year (not counting nic base that I bought for "science experiments") is: $0.00.

The amount I've saved over the (few days shy of) 4 years I've been vaping by not buying cigs is in excess of $17,500!
^THIS^
 

zoiDman

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I started vaping to save money. Not too sure it's working out that way.:rolleyes:

If I'd Stop buying Mods that I really Don't Need, or RTA's and RDA's that are No Better then the ones I have, then then Money I would spend on Vape stuff would have been about Zero for 2017.

But who I'm I Kidding... LOL.
 

IDJoel

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It definitely seems like this is something that one may not perfect the first time using. Much like getting to know your sweet spot for flavor percentages, this will take some time to get right!
I agree that this would likely take some experimentation to find any given individual's preferred sweet spot. And, it seems to me, that @mikepetro's recommendation to use a pH meter is essential, for one to have a true means to measure (and understand) what changes are being made, and permit repetition.

Which brings up another question: looking at the pH probe example @mikepetro posted, and doing a quick google search of my own, it appears all the probes intended for fluids are rather wide/bulky. Can these be used in/with small sample sizes?

When I am mixing up testers, that I have no idea whether they going to work, I will only mix 5-10mL. Then, as I start getting closer to my intended result, will I increase the sample size. Are these probes going to get an accurate reading with only a 5-10mL sample? If not; what would you suggest is the minimum workable sample size to get a reasonably accurate reading?
 

AzPlumber

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I agree that this would likely take some experimentation to find any given individual's preferred sweet spot. And, it seems to me, that @mikepetro's recommendation to use a pH meter is essential, for one to have a true means to measure (and understand) what changes are being made, and permit repetition.

Which brings up another question: looking at the pH probe example @mikepetro posted, and doing a quick google search of my own, it appears all the probes intended for fluids are rather wide/bulky. Can these be used in/with small sample sizes?

When I am mixing up testers, that I have no idea whether they going to work, I will only mix 5-10mL. Then, as I start getting closer to my intended result, will I increase the sample size. Are these probes going to get an accurate reading with only a 5-10mL sample? If not; what would you suggest is the minimum workable sample size to get a reasonably accurate reading?

I wonder if a 1-14 PH test strip would work?
 

Rossum

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I wonder if a 1-14 PH test strip would work?
Old pic from 2-1/2 years ago:

cUzs5k2.jpg


Various flavored juices that I had, all in the same ballpark of pH, except the last one, which was some juice extracted from a Juul pod, which was the only one with "salty" nic.
 

mikepetro

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Which brings up another question: looking at the pH probe example @mikepetro posted, and doing a quick google search of my own, it appears all the probes intended for fluids are rather wide/bulky. Can these be used in/with small sample sizes?

Probably not, I would say about 25ml in a 50ml beaker would be the smallest you could sample.

In order to submerge the business end of the probe you have to be about a half inch deep.


upload_2017-12-9_19-57-25.png
 

IDJoel

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Probably not, I would say about 25ml in a 50ml beaker would be the smallest you could sample.

In order to submerge the business end of the probe you have to be about a half inch deep.
Fair enough; thanks Mike!:)
 

Letitia

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It’s amazing how much more there is to learn about diy other than just mixing some flavors together. I’m definitely buying a ph meter and/or strips and am going to have a go at this!
Not me, perfectly happy with my salts.
 

IDJoel

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It’s amazing how much more there is to learn about diy other than just mixing some flavors together. I’m definitely buying a ph meter and/or strips and am going to have a go at this!
Chelsea, keep in mind that you need to start with freebase nicotine (regular nic; not nic salts), and add CA, in order to make nic salts. I don't think there is any advantage to be had by adding CA to existing nic salts.
(Didn't you say all you use are nic salts?)
 

ChelsB

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Chelsea, keep in mind that you need to start with freebase nicotine (regular nic; not nic salts), and add CA, in order to make nic salts. I don't think there is any advantage to be had by adding CA to existing nic salts.
(Didn't you say all you use are nic salts?)

No, not me. I have 100mg vg nic
 

ChelsB

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Oops; my bad. "Never mind... ":D

But never say never! I’m curious about those too!
Unfortunately, lately when I’m outside and smell my husband or neighbors smoking, I’m really liking the smell. That’s kind of why I want to try something different. So I go back to zero cravings when I smell it
 
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