Vaping and dehydration.
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I think this turned into a fun thread. It reminds me yet again how diverse we all are and how much we judge the world through our own eyes. Most everyone kept it civil and entertaining. Kudos to those that did.
Vape, sip, vape, sip.
Sip, sip, sip, sip, vape, sip, vape, guzzle...fall down...pass out.
If it does, it's usually not very much. You can use a bit of water to thin VG so it "wicks" to the atomizer easier, but most of the water in the vapor is actually condensed from the air you would breathe...basically the same thing happens when you breathe on a cold day, the heated water vapor from your breath condenses with moisture in the air into a temporarily visible cloud. After all, the actual contents of a 1 milliliter cartridge cannot possibly account for more than 0.01% of the multiple liters of vapor you exhale.
1. Even if water is not added, it is there because VG and PG self-hydrate.
2. The 'litres of vapor' is actually just air with a minute amount of vapor/condensed vapor in it.
...personally, I would like t see this one closed...'nuff said on this subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!......
You can't explain the fallacy so want to tip the board over ~ lol
Yes and no. It's important because the dehydration myth has become a legend with at least an implication of severity that is unwarranted; it brings disrepute to vaping, and fear - it might well scare some people away. Yes, that is a big deal.
...only because it had become a circular debate...I have an opinion...you tell me I'm wrong but only offer your opinion...if I am wrong, I would like to know...FACTUALLY...so show me the money!!!!
madjack
I find the all PG juices, really dry out my mouth and throat. Is this what you talking about?
...it is what I am talking about...others??? I dunno..........................................
As has been said before, you state this as fact. Why not share with us your evidence? The fact that you made the above statement actually irritates me. If you have proof, then why not share it and put this case to rest? Not doing so does a great disservice to this discussion.
I've been reading a lot on Propylene Glycol (mainly since the juice I use has a high ratio of PG/VG) and I've learned a lot. Below is my final hypothesis based on the facts I have found.
First, there are some distinctions that need to be made between the use of Propylene Glycol (PG) in cosmetic products (as moisturizers have been used as an example to refute the dehydration theory), and that used in our e-liquid. For cosmetic products, studies have concluded that PG is considered safe only in concentrations up to 50%. What we vape is Propylene Glycol USP, considered as food safe, and is concentrated at just over 95%. PG in cosmetics comprises generally only 5% of the product, but comprises a much larger percentage in the e-juice depending on the ratio. While it can pull moisture from the air, air contact is extremely limited, only occurring when a container is opened. Even if it were, the humidity levels would need to be very high. This plays a factor in the grand scheme of things. Also, from what I have been able to find for e-liquid composition analysis, water content is very low. To say that PG is hydrated and thus needs no more moisture is false.
It has been stated, and is true, that PG is used in moisturizers due to its ability to hold moisture. PG is also a surfactant and thus breaks the surface tension of water. This allows the water to move more freely into your pores carrying any intended products along with it (including the PG). The problem is that as the water evaporates, PG seeks to replace it in order to maintain its balance, and since it has been able to get into the pores, its most abundant source of water available to it is in the dermis layers of the skin. So while moisture may be maintained on the top layer of skin, you do so at the sake of drying out your new skin. This is why you sometimes end up having to repeat putting moisturizer on if you are already dried out. Also, PG tends to leave a residue, and since it has been able to get into the poors, it does not wash away easily.
Of course, this also means that PG is an excellent vehicle for being able to deliver nicotine. As you breath in the vapor from the e-cig, some of that is going to cling to the inside of your mouth, long before any gets into your lungs and mixes with any water vapor that is exhaled. As it does, once again, PG goes to work by breaking the surface tension of the water, allowing it, and the nicotine to get into your poors. The more you vape, the more PG that gets into your poors, and the more water it ends up absorbing. Now, what do you think happens when the water on the surface of skin in your mouth evaporates? The PG draws it from beneath the skin. Eventually, as the amount of PG on the skin significantly increases, it draws even more moisture from you to the point that as more water evaporates on the surface of the skin, there is less water for it to draw upon from within. And as it has been shown that PG does not wash away easily, the build up will be more during periods of heavy vaping.
And that is my hypothesis based on the research I have done. I have sufficiently proven to myself that it does dry out the skin in your mouth given enough time, and under the right (or wrong depending on how you look at it) conditions. I also believe it to be practically impossible for it to cause one to become moderately or severely dehydrated and require medical attention, and any mild dehydration symptoms seem to only be localized to the mouth and not likely to affect the body as a whole. There would be several factors that would affect how fast, or at all, the skin in the mouth drys out, including the humidity level, water content of the individual, the amount of PG in the e-liquid, and how often you vape.
First, there are some distinctions that need to be made between the use of Propylene Glycol (PG) in cosmetic products (as moisturizers have been used as an example to refute the dehydration theory), and that used in our e-liquid. For cosmetic products, studies have concluded that PG is considered safe only in concentrations up to 50%. What we vape is Propylene Glycol USP, considered as food safe, and is concentrated at just over 95%. PG in cosmetics comprises generally only 5% of the product, but comprises a much larger percentage in the e-juice depending on the ratio. While it can pull moisture from the air, air contact is extremely limited, only occurring when a container is opened. Even if it were, the humidity levels would need to be very high. This plays a factor in the grand scheme of things. Also, from what I have been able to find for e-liquid composition analysis, water content is very low. To say that PG is hydrated and thus needs no more moisture is false.
It has been stated, and is true, that PG is used in moisturizers due to its ability to hold moisture. PG is also a surfactant and thus breaks the surface tension of water. This allows the water to move more freely into your pores carrying any intended products along with it (including the PG). The problem is that as the water evaporates, PG seeks to replace it in order to maintain its balance, and since it has been able to get into the pores, its most abundant source of water available to it is in the dermis layers of the skin. So while moisture may be maintained on the top layer of skin, you do so at the sake of drying out your new skin. This is why you sometimes end up having to repeat putting moisturizer on if you are already dried out. Also, PG tends to leave a residue, and since it has been able to get into the poors, it does not wash away easily.
Of course, this also means that PG is an excellent vehicle for being able to deliver nicotine. As you breath in the vapor from the e-cig, some of that is going to cling to the inside of your mouth, long before any gets into your lungs and mixes with any water vapor that is exhaled. As it does, once again, PG goes to work by breaking the surface tension of the water, allowing it, and the nicotine to get into your poors. The more you vape, the more PG that gets into your poors, and the more water it ends up absorbing. Now, what do you think happens when the water on the surface of skin in your mouth evaporates? The PG draws it from beneath the skin. Eventually, as the amount of PG on the skin significantly increases, it draws even more moisture from you to the point that as more water evaporates on the surface of the skin, there is less water for it to draw upon from within. And as it has been shown that PG does not wash away easily, the build up will be more during periods of heavy vaping.
And that is my hypothesis based on the research I have done. I have sufficiently proven to myself that it does dry out the skin in your mouth given enough time, and under the right (or wrong depending on how you look at it) conditions. I also believe it to be practically impossible for it to cause one to become moderately or severely dehydrated and require medical attention, and any mild dehydration symptoms seem to only be localized to the mouth and not likely to affect the body as a whole. There would be several factors that would affect how fast, or at all, the skin in the mouth drys out, including the humidity level, water content of the individual, the amount of PG in the e-liquid, and how often you vape.
One cannot prove a negative. The theory that vaping is dehydrating is your theory. I am not suggesting a theory; I am pointing out that your theory cannot be true because there is no mechanism. It is just a sensation. By all means sip some extra liquids if you want, but don't suggest there is a danger in this.
PG / VG will only hydrate themselves to a point (say 10-20%); they don't keep drawing in water. The PG/VG in moisturisers and e-liquids is already hydrated. The issue with moisturisers is possibly true but with e-liqiuds it is not because the mouth, throat and lungs are always supplied with plenty of water, so no pulling water out of the skin is required.
In some way, PG/VG maybe can make some people feel thirsty, but that doesn't mean they need water.
Here's one way this might be working. Blood sugar levels need to be carefully controlled and part of the control system is making sure the body'd water level is sufficient (one can think of dilution as being one of the controlling mechanisms). So carb intake, particularly sugars themselves, can trigger thirst. As an advanced warning system, the taste buds in the mouth might signal sugar intake and create thirst, although the amount in vaping is tiny, it is alone so it could be a trigger; and need not be noticeably sweet. Is this real? Maybe, sounds like it could be but I've no idea. The point is that something like this is the case. It's either the sensation of dryness or a triggering of thirst - but either way, extra water is not actually required because there is no extra water loss (other than blowing out through the mouth as i noted before).
The trigger might of course by something other than VG/PG - sweetner or nicotine possibly.
Nicotine is the most most likely cause of the thirst - either a trigger or, more likely, by simple dryness sensation.
There remains the possibility that there really is real dehydration occuring, though I think it unlikely on anything other than the trivial scale. But in case it is true I am happy to explore the issue; otherwsise I wouldn't be here. But this much is true - it cannot be due to PG/VG being hydrophillic; if the effect is real and extra liquid intake really is required (glasses of the stuff) the mechanism must be something else. And is it not a case of false signal (thirst without real need), then the mechanism almost certainly involves increased urine production.
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That's fine if there is no mechanism, I'm just not seeing that to be true. That is why I am asking for the evidence since you speak from a place of knowing which implies it exists. And overall I'm not suggesting there is danger in this. Folks seem to be so hung up on the word dehydration as this big evil monster coming to devour us. It happens to us every day, all day, and is replenished by the intake of foods and water. If something happens to increase localized dehydration, it deserves mention.
And your second response, which I did enjoy, shows that you are thinking this through to explain in it from your side. I do, however, read in that you are theorizing as well.
Now, two things you mentioned did peak my interest which may not seem related, but actually are (nicotine and blood sugar). Nicotine does cause your body to release adrenaline, which in turn tells your body to release extra sugars for fuel. This is something I can stand behind, but my only hangup is that I had been using 12mg nicotine juice, and recently switched to 6mg nicotine juice. I feel no reduction in the symptoms in this short term, but will give it time to see. I guess one question in this area would be whether or not the level dosage of nicotine affects the amount of adrenaline released, and thus the amount of sugars that are triggered to be released. I have not found anything to answer this.
It is also important to point out that since PG breaks the surface tension of water, the evaporation rate of that water is thus affected and occurs faster. I also am unable to find any figures to show exactly how much water PG will actually absorb, so I'd like to know where you got your 10-20% figure from. In fact, from what I have read, it seems it is able to absorb much more than that. PG is also used in humidors in a 50/50 solution with distilled water. As the humidity increases, PG will absorb the extra moisture, and as it decreases, it will release it. And as for how PG relates to moisturizers, it is not a just a possible occurrence, it is fact.
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