Vaping nicotine as a never-smoker, why not?

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Racehorse

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Addiction is more than a physical dependence or habit like with vaping or drinking coffee: addiction is all consuming and something that very little takes precedence over. Addiction will infiltrate your happiness and destroy your quality of life! Is that nicotine in eliquid? I doubt that.

It depends.

Needing to have a pack of cigarettes all the time on my person or nearby, certainly FELT *all consuming.*:rolleyes:


Many of us suffered thru meetings at work, that went long, or having to teach a class that ran 2-3 hours .... would run outside at first chance to have a cigarette......tension and stress building up from not having nicotine for a few hours. I think we called it "jone-sing".

I see people with a PV is stuck to their person like a permanently embedded pacifier and it doesn't seem much different.

I do think it's a "dependency" if you end up getting into fights, lose your job, or can't function in the greater world out there for a few hours (airplane flight, business meeting, social function) without inhaling nicotine......isn't that is more than just a normal craving,m like needing to have a sandwich because you skipped lunch???

I would say at the very least, it is behavioral dependency?

Not sure how to qualify going into a panic because you leave the house, rushed, on an errand or to keep an appointment and realize you didn't bring vape gear. If we are describing something that you "have to have" 24/7...... What would you call that? :lol: A habit? A hobby? A dependency? An addiction?

I don't know the answer to that myself!

I can only compare it to other things.....for most human beings is: 1) breathing air, and 2) drinking water. Without doing those 2 things during the course of a day you probably don't live very long (if at all). Everything else is optional up to a certain time frame :lol:
 
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bluecat

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Ummm yes they do
Effective April 1, 1990, the Office of Environmental Health Hazard Assessment (OEHHA) of the California Environmental Protection Agency added nicotine to the list of chemicals known to cause developmental toxicity.
Known Carcinogens and Reproductive Toxicants (California Proposition 65)
NICOTINE AND SALTS

Ummmm that prop list nicotine as a reproductive toxicant. Most likely from the mice study someone linked before.

Specifically this..added to the list of chemicals to cause developmental toxicitity.

Edit... maybe I just learned something. Perhaps carcinogenic and developmental toxicity is the same thing. I'll have to ask my client tomorrow. If so.. then I was wrong.
 
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bluecat

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you must have mis-read his post. he didn't say nicotine was carcinogenic.

Estrogen and Soy aren't carcinogenic either, but if you start having chemotherapy due to cancer, you are told to avoid these things. It's because they have a tendency to accelerate / feed cancer tumors. So does sugar. Which is also not carcinogenic.

Of course, if one is battling cancer, one would probably want to give the body 200% chance of being healthy and fighting it, so I would probably not be injesting "any" extra chemicals into my body if I could at all help it.
You are correct I did misread it. The cells were already cancerous. My mother in laws cancer has returned after xhemo. It is back and worse than ever that they say it's a rare form and don't know what to do. I guess now it is a good thing she has never smoked or vaped. Man she does like wild turkey 151 over ice. Seeing a little old lady order it at dinner and the waiters expression is priceless.
 

Mr.Mann

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I used to hear that in the rooms by wet drunks quite frequently...

That nicotine is addictive? Yes, it is...
Funny those not addicted to nicotine don't all vape 0 nic...

Do you seriously think this all makes a point? Before I change my settings to make this thread not look so, ahem, repetitive, I just want to respond one last time.

What type of little box does your reasoning live in where anything that we engage in daily, that is not absolutely critical to survival, must be due to addiction? I heard sex is "addictive," and since I tend to have a good deal of it, I guess that means I am...what? Addicted to sex? By your logic of 1+1=3, I must be. All this time I thought I just liked sex.

I really should not be dignifying your comments with a response, but it boggles my mind that you think you can insinuate that people have an addiction when you know nothing real of whom you are talking to. Okay. So here we go, here is something real: I DIY my own liquid and order liquid in 0 mg/mL for those times when I am not in the mood for nicotine. But I do too use nicotine for those times when I want some. This came in the mail for me on Friday. I would also show you my DIY that is zero nic, but I am sure you wouldn't believe it was real. You'd probably just say I was in denial about what was really behind that self-made label of zero mg/mL.

kOv1yi4m.jpg


Okay. Alakazam alakazoo. 3, 2, 1. Poof.
 
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mosspa

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What do you guys think would be a reasonable nicotine concentration solution to vape for a non-smoker to start off? I am leaning towards 4-8 mg. Any suggestions?

Well, I started at 45mg. That appears to be the concentration that delivers approximately as mush nicotine in PG/VG vapor as the average regular strength cigarette does per typical drag.
 

renacer

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The whole "is nicotine argument" is ridiculous. Yes, it is. Just like caffeine. It can be a benign addiction. If caffeine was primarily consumed by something with thousands of carcinogenic chemicals like nicotine is in cigarettes, it would be dangerous. Vaping makes an addictive substance safer (and in my opinion more enjoyable) to consume.

Breaking nicotine addiction doesn't negate the fact that it can exist. The fact that most vapers, including myself have reduced their nicotine levels doesn't prove nicotine isn't addictive - anything addictive can be weaned down or off. For a more dangerous addiction like alcohol, it's actually much smarter to gradually decrease than quit cold turkey. All addictions are breakable. And all addictions may potentially never start. I would give a never-smoker who wanted to vape the same cautionary advice I'd give to a caffeine free person who wanted to try a Red Bull.
 
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Mr.Mann

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The whole "is nicotine argument" is ridiculous. Yes, it is. Just like caffeine. It can be a benign addiction. If caffeine was primarily consumed by something with thousands of carcinogenic chemicals like nicotine is in cigarettes, it would be dangerous. Vaping makes an addictive substance safer (and in my opinion more enjoyable) to consume.

Breaking nicotine addiction doesn't negate the fact that it can exist. The fact that most vapers, including myself have reduced their nicotine levels doesn't prove nicotine isn't addictive - anything addictive can be weaned down or off. For a more dangerous addiction like alcohol, it's actually much smarter to gradually decrease than quit cold turkey. All addictions are breakable. And all addictions may potentially never start. I would give a never-smoker who wanted to vape the same cautionary advice I'd give to a caffeine free person who wanted to try a Red Bull.

I believe you meant to write: "the whole 'is nicotine addictive argument' is ridiculous". Yes? If so, how would you know? Had you ever tried nicotine prior to smoking without anabasine, nornicotine, anatabine, cotinine and myosmine? If so, did you get "addicted" to nicotine on its own? If not, and you got addicted to tobacco but are sure it was only the nicotine, what role if any did those tobacco alkaloids play in your addiction? Of course you know those other alkaloids are not in found in eliquid (unless it's WTA, which by most reports, even from the maker, has more of chance of causing some dependency), so the whole caffeine comparison only works when you are on a tit-for-tat basis of one alkaloid to the next, not one alkaloid vs. six others.

Study: The addition of five minor tobacco alkaloids increases nicotine-induced hyperactivity, sensitization and intravenous self-administration in rats.

"During fixed-ratio 5, progressive ratio and the dose-response test, rats receiving nicotine plus the minor alkaloids responded significantly more than those receiving nicotine alone. Testing of each minor alkaloid in the second experiment indicated that anatabine, cotinine and myosmine individually increased nicotine-induced locomotor activity. These results suggest that the minor tobacco alkaloids, particularly anatabine, cotinine and myosmine, may increase the motivation for nicotine and thus facilitate smoking behaviour."
 
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mosspa

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This is my understanding, simplified as much as possible, of the state of knowledge of "nicotine addiction"...

1. I think it is indisputable that cigarette smoking leads to intense dependence of *something*

2. There is a lot of evidence that nicotine is the culprit, of course, because nicotine has always eased the pain of smoking cessation, in whatever form it's done (and FDA approved or not). Another duh moment.

3. There is also a huge amount of evidence that it is far more than nicotine. Words you will rarely if ever hear: "I just quit smoking and I am totally relaxed and comfortable with my NRT/Vaping replacement". No, what you hear is something to the effect "yes, the nicotine helps, but there is something seriously missing, I'm still craving cigs and I'm a basket case".

(I'll admit that some people claim to start vaping and make it sound like it was easy peasy but I'm not inside their brain and easy peasy can be relative, plus we all seem to experience the various dependencies differently. So maybe I need to modify my "rarely if ever"?)

4. A number of studies have been done where people were given essentially NRT products to infuse smoking levels of nicotine in their bloodstreams. This for periods of 6-9 months. My understanding is that it is a fact that NONE, ZERO, of these hundreds of subjects reported withdrawal at the end of the study when their nicotine was discontinued. That, I think, is conclusive proof, as best we could have at this time, that nicotine, by itself, does not create dependency within a 6-9 month period of regular use.

5. It has been argued here, by people that I personally have no respect for, that inhaling nicotine will have a different outcome. Supposedly due to the greater speed of absorption by the lungs. I have no respect for them because I have seen them argue anything, for the sake of argument, to advance an opinion that is not backed up with any facts at all. BUT...

6. Keeping an open mind, and not wanting to diss a message based on my feelings about the messenger, let's accept the possibility that inhalation is different.

(I do not buy the inhalation theory, short of actual evidence, because it is my understanding that the majority of nicotine absorbed while vaping is done through the mouth, nose and throat tissues, not the lungs. This is very often discussed here, and I assume that to be true. If it is true, then Nicotine Gum and Lozenges would have the same basic effect as vaping since the nic from the gum is absorbed through the same mouth, gum and throat tissues. The effect of the less effective lung absorption *shouldn't* make much difference, but our lab rats will prove that one way or the other)

I will also add that I've seen nic gum users talk about the "fast hit" they get from the gum, and my long experience with nic gum was similar. In my experience there is no faster and deeper "nic hit", aside from smoking, than chewing a tab of 4mg nic gum.

Now we are left with our lab rats, in the form of never smoking vapers, to basically test the following two theories:

1. Nicotine, by itself, might create dependencies over longer periods of time (many years) than the studies covered. And, in theory at least, the studies I mention were not intended to test dependencies, they were testing for neurological benefits. But if nicotine likes to form dependencies, outside of tobacco use, it shouldn't care about the motives of the people that organized the studies :)

2. Test the "inhalation theory" I mentioned in #5.

Now, as I understand things, in fact there is a great body of experimental evidence concerning long term use of nicotine sans tobacco, in the form of long term never smoking users of NRTs. NRTs have been over the counter since 1996, 19 years now. As best I understand it, although there may be a few isolated cases reported, few if any never smoking users of NRTs have been reported to have significant dependencies.

If I am correct in my facts above, there is not a whole lot (new) to test here, there is 19 years of experimental data out there. But if my facts are wrong, let's discuss that.

This is a very well reasoned synthesis of the reality of nicotine use. I don't want to rehash all of what I said in my Vaping for Nicotine Advantages? thread, but I'll summarize some of it. I have never experienced any withdrawal symptoms from nicotine cessation. Of course, I've only had three chances to experience it. First, when I quit smoking my senior year in high school (about six years of smoking culminating in about 2-packs/day Marlboro usage), second, after my initial vaping experiments on my classroom 'senior-moment' problems (about one month vaping 45mg/ml, five to 7 times/day 5-7 puffs per usage), and third, early this June, after my semester ended (about three months of vaping, 10 to 15 times/day 10-15 puffs per usage, when I quit June 1, I was using about 1.5 ml/day 45mg/ml nicotine). The third time was most instructive because I was keenly aware that I was getting the nicotine equivalent (in terms of blood nicotine) of more than a pack of cigarettes/day. Also, three months is quite an extended usage period when there is potential for a drug to lead to physical dependence. I had intended to take a break starting in June, and I took the opportunity to attend a Behavioral Neuroscience meeting in Victoria, CA without my mod or any juice. I never missed the nicotine or vaping... at all!

In my Advantages thread, I introduced the idea of conditioning accounting for the withdrawal phenomena in long term (20+ years smokers). After this last round of nicotine supplementation, I am more convinced than ever that learning accounts for the withdrawal, that it only was related to nicotine initially in that, in that early period, nicotine was serving as as an artificial primary reinforcer (that is, it artificially stimulates the same brain systems that become active in natural operant learning). I think that what develops over time is the development of a habit (a sequence [chain] of behaviors that is repeated nearly identically, and which leads to a terminal reinforcer (the cigarette, containing nicotine and everything else that is in the smoke). Habit strength is the label that is given to a whole mesh-mash of measures (resistance to extinction, partial reinforcer effectiveness, etc). A terminally reinforced chain that occurs as many as 60 times/day (three pack/day smoker) for as long as 30-40 years would acquire a ridiculous amount of habit strength. One would expect serious expectancy-related problems in cold turkey quitting, although very few would be due to the absence of nicotine. As I pointed out in the Advantages thread, this accounts for why the patch, and nicotine gum are so infective in quitting, and why there is an apparent much higher success rate for vapers (the vaping chain bears a lot of topographical similarity to smoking [i.e., you reach for your mod, you turn it on, you move the tip to your mouth, you inhale, and you get nicotine]). Although I am very experienced with the experimental analysis of behavior, I'm not a behavioral analysis clinician. We don't have any behavioral clinics in my area, so I haven't had the chance to run this by one. So, what I am proposing here is a hypothesis. The test of the hypothesis would come from analysis of the effects of breaking the chain at varying behavioral segments, with the prediction that breaking the chain in earlier segments would lead to more distress than breaking the chain at later segments (i.e, removing the nicotine).
 

mosspa

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Seems a little convenient if the studies showing nicotine to be a wonder cure all are sponsored by makers of the patch and nic gum...
I'm yet to see these peer reviewed studies, however...

Look in my Advantages thread. There is a ton of peer reviewed stuff presented there.
 
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mosspa

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Heh... actually to me it was sort of like... when I first got sober, and had to get those 90 meetings in 90 days... if on day 5 and day 6 I hadnt' been able to get to a meeting, I don't really know what would have happened; possibly I might have been drinking again. Maybe not; day 5 and day 6 of not-drinking, I think I still had a hangover from my last drunk. :D

Andria

Hi Andria,

Yes, and that is because alcohol leads to a real physical dependency, and any nicotine dependence is psychological. That doesn't mean that physiological brain mechanisms are not involved, it is just that the nicotine really doesn't have much to do with the dependence, since what smokers are dependent on is the whole behavioral chain.
 

mosspa

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So that woukd explain why I quit stinkies 20 years ago but still chew nic gum and vape?

No! The two things (your smoking and chewing/vaping) are entirely independent. You
I'm on a mobile device now.

a national study released in December 2014 found e-cigarette use among teens exceeds traditional cigarette smoking. The study also found that e-cigarette use among 8th and 10th graders was double that of traditional cigarette smoking. CDC studies have also shown e-cigarette use among high school students increased by 61 percent from 2012 to 2013.

American Lung Association Statement on E-Cigarettes - American Lung Association

Since vaping among teens has drastically increased and smoking among 18-25 year olds has not drastically decreased, it is safe to assume these now smokers started with vaping...

CDC - Fact Sheet - Current Cigarette Smoking Among Adults in the United States - Smoking & Tobacco Use

Why is it 'safe to assume' that. My God, man. There isn't even a correlation to work with there!
 

mosspa

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Vaping has been out for a while, but studies have not been...
If teens are vaping in droves now, yet smoking rates for 20-25 year olds have not declined dramatically, it would be safe to assume these smokers started with an e-cig...

Again, this is mindless speculation.
 

mosspa

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Excellent resource Mr.Mann, thanks for posting it :thumb:

The mere fact that the article discusses 'nicotine dependence' exposes it as a fraud. If you want to know the 'truth' look at the real peer-reviewed literature on nicotine. There is nothing there that even remotely suggests that it directly leads to dependence.
 

mosspa

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There are no hard facts; just as peer reviewed long tern studies do not exist. The federal government and it's agencies think e-cigs lead to smoking among teens. That is a fact. I do too. I was a teen once...

And, as a teen, you vaped which led you to smoking?
 
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