Vaping superiority?

[stols001]

That is the crux of the matter. W/D (assisted or not) is really, really AWFUL. I did my opiate taper while still working and with NOTHING not even clonidine, I did not want ANYONE to know. I think I tapered 1/10 of my dose every two weeks and if it was a bad week, it went longer. It was pretty much hell, IDK how I did it. W/d symptoms suck but for me it was more coping with how I managed my BP disorder.

Suboxone quitting was hell, and that time I had to take time off work, I used MMJ (you should if detoxing off opiates and/or benzodiazepines) and I had clonidine. I started out with two weeks of Kratom to sort of give my receptors a break from the Suboxone which, suboxone clings very tightly to receptors. I was still in WD at that point, and it still sucked, but then I began microdosing Ibogaine which is a very powerful hallucinogen that cleans out opiate receptors. I did a TON of research before I started, and the microdosing really worked (obviously I couldn't do one MASSIVE dose and hallucinate for 3 days and not take my meds.) There are small studies in the US way back actually showing it worked, and well, I think I read everything out there on the web that was accessible to the public and available. If you want a "medical vacation" detox rather than a traditional one, you could do a HELL of a lot worse for some drugs than a trip to Costa Rica and a "trip" on Ibogaine. It's such an interesting remedy I couldn't even begin to say....

Despite all this for the first 3 weeks I was pretty much laying in bed, moaning, for most of the day. I actually don't mind this fact. I remember that detox and how much it HURT it was USEFUL information for me, for sure.

So yeah ,when I'm suicidal even which has not happened until recently, the thought of Ultram doesn't cross my mind at all, my brain has been repaired, In fact, the idea of opiates are repugnant to me now. I wear an alert bracelet and if I am unconscious my husband gets to decide. Tapering benzos isn't attractive but I certainly don't crave them, like. I'd probably want to be put in a benzo sedation state not placed on opiates.

I hate them more than anything really. I cannot even being to say the pain they caused me, not just physically but emotionally, financially, the pain of everything? The irony is I was IN RECOVERY I was SO scared to take them even though there was all this false "information."

It is what it is, but I will tell you THIS .If it is the kid in middle school smoking MJ and on his way to harder things, or the elderly person with COPD????

I have plenty of sympathy, empathy, and love for them all. I don't judge someone for their life circumstances, or their brain condition, or their addiction. THERE IS NO ONE PERSON TO BLAME FOR ADDICTION CERTAINLY NOT THE ADDICT.

I have never met a single addict in dire straits who has come crawling into AA stating, "I wanted my life to be just like this, that is why I began finishing drinks left on tables at parties my parents held because they also beat me. Yes, I was thinking as I did it "This is the EXACT life I want."

That is not how addiction works. IF Your first HIGH was your LAST high, maybe there would be less addiction. But, it ISN'T. Sorry.

You know back in the day just as smoking corrals were making their beginning, I used to be on this smoking schedule with this woman who was smart, fun, friendly and enjoyable in most ways. She got really fat rather fast and I asked her what happened She matter of flatly said, "Oh, I have COPD now it's the steroids," I asked her "OMG what are you going to DO?" She replied, "I am going to keep smoking. This is what happens in our family. We all get it and we don't bother trying to quit. I will smoke until I die."

I hope she has found her way to vaping, because she was a lovely human being who appeared to have assessed her ability to quit as absolute zero, totally nil. There are times I felt like that with opiates, or smoking and if I had not found vaping I would be dead.

I don't understand any of if really? The analogies of tobacco to other drugs, the condemnation of addiction?

It has been proven over and over, the lifetime rates of tobacco cessation are lower than ANY other drug, even the 'bad" ones.

I'm actually a piece of proof. I am done with opiates but if I were not smoking during my detox? FORGET IT.

Besides WHO CARES? Why does it MATTER to you? Why all the opinion on this? You don't think you are one, I am not contesting it, WHY are you going down this road at all?

It is hard to be nonjudgmental to the judgmental, especially when you want to be because you are for addiction. I guess I'd say cling to your opinion if you must. I happen to believe I have a LOT more first hand and second hand information than you any day of the week. I guess it just makes me sad.

You would also be shocked at how many functional "maintenance" suboxone and methadone users there are. OH HELL YES, we were all complaining about being constipated all the time ,but YEAH, like, I have seen it firsthand. If you think I walked up to ANYONE at work and said "Hey! I take suboxone daily and it is fantastic!" You'd be wrong. I mean, there is so much stigma for addiction and you are demonstrating it as of RIGHT THIS SECOND.

We have more important things to worry about so I am done. Sigh.
Anna
Anna
Anna

 

[dripster]

It is in the DSM and the IDC. The definitions are slightly condensed, but 100% correct.

Nicotine addiction is in there, in case you are wondering.

Also, I am not quite sure what "benefits" you think those who are addicted HAVE? Yes, there are free methadone and suboxone programs out there (I did not qualify for state funded insurance so I paid privately for mine, it was pretty expensive) BUT I don't see how methadone or suboxone is "continuing the party." I did not feel remotely high on Suboxone, I felt.... normal and functional. Suboxone has some built in mechanisms to address the ability to get high by using more, it has a terminal dose where all receptors are occupied, and it doesn't matter if you take more.

Methadone... I guess you could claim a certain number of users are briefly "continuing the party" but like, they are overseen pretty rigorously and you don't just get to up your dose all the time, you are stabilized, and hopefully "better" IDK.

It's just not a party though, and frankly those two drugs have more serious side effects than clean versions of the drug involved. I'm not going to go into that but I have been in programs and worked in them and everyone in there is NOT swinging at piñatas, let me put it that way. It is a grim, unfortunate affair indeed.

I attempted (and succeeded in) stopping so I guess I'm safe in your book. IDK if you have seen like, some of those drugs withdrawal in action, but that is also no sweet 16 party, either. Oh addicts go through it, but not USUALLY by choice.

As far as nicotine goes, there are so many opinions involved, I say everyone should decide for themselves.

Recreational use IS the number one way people get addicted as far as I can tell. Maybe doctor prescriptions play a small but crucial role. Recreational use turns into dependence more times than I can tell you. I will say, amusingly, I have never tried a "hard" drug. I kind of thought the MJ commercials were ridiculous but I believed the evidence about some of those other drugs. If you wanted to try them, I would recommend trying them ONCE and once only with the knowledge the high you get will be the best one you will ever have. Everything after that... It's all downhill from there.

But maybe there are many more working people or bored housewives who were placed on the opioid train. IDK .It seemed to be the case when I attended a few groups with my suboxone program but well, mostly, it was recreational use TO dependence.

Whether a person has tried to stop or not (although in my opinion they absolutely SHOULD) well, it makes not difference in the long run-- these programs are public health programs too they do not JUST benefit the addict involved. They reduce crime, stabilize use, and monitor problems. They are far from perfect, bur I don't know how perfect you will get when dealing with addiction. Etc.
Anna

The fact that is in the DSM and the IDC doesn't also mean that it is correct. Here's why:
Expanding the Definition of Addiction: DSM-5 vs. ICD-11

 

[CMD-Ky]

The fact that is in the DSM and the IDC doesn't also mean that it is correct. Here's why:
Expanding the Definition of Addiction: DSM-5 vs. ICD-11

The DSM is the ultimate in a scientific consensus and I was under the impression that these were not to be questioned.

 

[dripster]

The DSM is the ultimate in a scientific consensus and I was under the impression that these were not to be questioned.

If what you say is true, then why do you think the DSM keeps changing the definition over and over and over? Such is the history of the double standards police.

 

[CMD-Ky]

If what you say is true, then why do you think the DSM keeps changing the definition over and over and over? Such is the history of the double standards police.

I should have placed a "sarcasm" tag on my post because I agree with you.

 

[dripster]

Can the Diagnostic Manual for Mental Health Do More Harm Than Good?

 

[CMD-Ky]

Can the Diagnostic Manual for Mental Health Do More Harm Than Good?

I have considered it to be an economic and political document.

 

[dripster]

I should have placed a "sarcasm" tag on my post because I agree with you.

 

[stols001]

There is a lot of work put in to the DSM for sure. It is in some ways, a social document, not to mention a billing one. For example, homosexuality was once considered a "disease" and was in there. So I'm not saying it's entirely accurate.

I WILL say the addiction disorders haven't changed much over the years, because addiction also hasn't changed since the dawn of time. Maybe the specifiers have gotten even more SPECIFIC but I'm not entirely certain that's POSSIBLE.

Oh the sex change deal is still in there, even though I'm sure the alphabet soup would love to get it out of there. BUT the psychologist HAS to bill the person for the mandated meetings to determine if a person really SHOULD amend their genitals. So, it remains a "disorder."

I think there is a lot of research done about the brain disorders like schizophrenia and the brain disorders, and well, that's good I suppose. I think the big things on the table this round were the personality disorders (especially borderline now there are legit treatments) and PTSD/anxiety disorders.

So yeah, I'm not claiming it is the be all or end all but I AM saying that is where the definitions came from and if you look at past revisions they have remained quite stable over time.

There's not a ton wrong with them necessarily, but everyone gets to decide addiction for themselves.

My favorite professor described it as: "The right drug meets the right brain." Crystal .... really does NOTHING for me (my best friend spiked a beer when I visited) in fact I was awake for two weeks and I had to go to the hospital for aid. I wouldn't try it again. OPIATES HOWEVER?

LOL if I do get cancer I will go out on a CLOUD of opiates if I am terminal and I plan to enjoy it, I mean, as much as I can. But I won't hold back if I am DYING and in pain,

It remains the best definition of addiction I have met. Simple easy and TRUE.

Anna

 

[dripster]

I have considered it to be an economic and political document.

In multiple key important ways, yes. For example, due to the DSM, a gifted person can be very easily misdiagnosed with autism or ADHD.

 

[CMD-Ky]

I think that you and I are using the words "social" and "political" to convey very similar concepts, our educational and work background are sufficiently different that the vocabulary is different. The DSM trips over itself when addressing the changing social (political) mores, it really wants be politically correct.

@stols001
"There is a lot of work put in to the DSM for sure. It is in some ways, a social document, not to mention a billing one. For example, homosexuality was once considered a "disease" and was in there. So I'm not saying it's entirely accurate."

 

[CMD-Ky]

In multiple key important ways, yes. For example, due to the DSM, a gifted person can be very easily misdiagnosed with autism or ADHD.

I have the sense that the more gifted one is the further on the "spectrum" the DSM may put you. When I was actively working I wondered if the autistic or ADHD folks were simply people with minds that were superior to mine. When mothers or teachers would tell me little Johnny has autism or ADHD, I would ask if Johnny could play video games. Almost always the answer was that Johnny could, for very extended periods of time, play video games. Given that answer, I ask if they had considered if perhaps Johnny was merely bored by the school curriculum, and if they had not considered it then perhaps they should do so before drugging Johnny.

 

[dripster]

There is a lot of work put in to the DSM for sure. It is in some ways, a social document, not to mention a billing one. For example, homosexuality was once considered a "disease" and was in there. So I'm not saying it's entirely accurate.

I WILL say the addiction disorders haven't changed much over the years, because addiction also hasn't changed since the dawn of time. Maybe the specifiers have gotten even more SPECIFIC but I'm not entirely certain that's POSSIBLE.

Oh the sex change deal is still in there, even though I'm sure the alphabet soup would love to get it out of there. BUT the psychologist HAS to bill the person for the mandated meetings to determine if a person really SHOULD amend their genitals. So, it remains a "disorder."

I think there is a lot of research done about the brain disorders like schizophrenia and the brain disorders, and well, that's good I suppose. I think the big things on the table this round were the personality disorders (especially borderline now there are legit treatments) and PTSD/anxiety disorders.

So yeah, I'm not claiming it is the be all or end all but I AM saying that is where the definitions came from and if you look at past revisions they have remained quite stable over time.

There's not a ton wrong with them necessarily, but everyone gets to decide addiction for themselves.

My favorite professor described it as: "The right drug meets the right brain." Crystal .... really does NOTHING for me (my best friend spiked a beer when I visited) in fact I was awake for two weeks and I had to go to the hospital for aid. I wouldn't try it again. OPIATES HOWEVER?

LOL if I do get cancer I will go out on a CLOUD of opiates if I am terminal and I plan to enjoy it, I mean, as much as I can. But I won't hold back if I am DYING and in pain,

It remains the best definition of addiction I have met. Simple easy and TRUE.

Anna

Simple and easy, yes of course. But true? Not even remotely close. Speaking of truth, the frequent misdiagnosis of people who are gifted is one of primary reasons why a lot of them decided to become addicts. That's a REAL truth about the DSM.

 

[dripster]

I think that you and I are using the words "social" and "political" to convey very similar concepts, our educational and work background are sufficiently different that the vocabulary is different. The DSM trips over itself when addressing the changing social (political) mores, it really wants be politically correct.

Although "social" and "political" have different meanings, they overlap to a certain degree. But the DSM is choc full of narrow minded conceptions based on a wide variety of failed, sad, theories.

 

[stols001]

I ask every ADHD kid I meet (and yes, I have it) who would be the hunter able to scan the brush for the signs of smallest movement, and then run fast to kill the deer, the ADHD hunter or the normal one?

ADHD has a LOT going for it, but not when it comes to organization. ADHD people are gifted, creative, and entertaining and they are often lateral thinkers. They are not designed to sit for 7 hours at a desk for sure, to learn. They're often autodidacts. The majority of what I know is self taught or learned, to be honest.

The DSM is a billing and coding document, nothing less or more. They did a study I can't find it, but they took like 50 clinicians and had actors portray the disorders, presenting the EXACT same symptoms to each clinician and the diagnoses were ALL DIFFERENT.

A) Everyone has their pet leanings leading to different questions. Everyone has their :"pet:" diagnoses, GOD this one year we had to stop referring eating dx patients to the "Full advanced psychological testing fellow" because her pet disease was like, multi personality disorder, and like, she kept sending our (previously NOT normal but MORE normal) patients back CONVINCED they had MPD.

OMG it SUCKED so bad. This one Russian doc who I both loved and hated depending found the BEST way to deal with it. He would flatly say, "Okay there is more than one of you. But I have to treat YOU. So pick the ONE you would like me to TREAT and I tell the rest of the Yous to shut the hell up."

PURE GENIUS.

This is why I always diagnosed down. There is this perfectly lovely disorder called "adjustment disorder" and you can use it for a LONG time. I would NEVER give a kid another diagnosis than that, because THAT STUFF FOLLOWS YOU around."

I have no complaints about my "almost textbook" BP I diagnosis, but one time a doc wanted to diagnose me as schizoaffective. I was like, nuh uh. It is a HUGE difference.

Also, the dang therapist I went to see to experience DBT as a PATIENT wanted to give me a "Personality dx NOS" specifier, for DBT. I was like, lady, I don't have A PERSONALITY DISORDER I AM ALSO A THERAPIST ARE YOU HIGH? Besides which, DBT can be billed for trauma and mood disorders so freaking submit THAT.

She thought about and she was like, "You are right." She was funny actually she thought I was narcissistic because I'd been burned before, so I asked to sit in on a group first before I signed up, to make sure she didn't suck. She thought that was me being special until I explained my prior DBT experience and why I was cautious then she got it.

I think I taught that woman as much as she taught me. I'm sure it was hard not just having a therapist in the class, but like, I had such creative solutions for things.

I could go on forever bur NO I do not consider the DSM the be all and end all and in AZ you can diagnose someone with ANYTHING in the DSM at all with a 2 year degree, as long as it is cosigned,

I would change and reverse dx all the time on them, because I was like, "No, sorry you don't get to diagnose this kid with conduct disorder after a 2 hr assessment and he hates therapy and doesn't want to be there, thank you I will consider that diagnosis after 12 weeks, POSSIBLY."

But I am sensible like that. Including with addiction. One might say an addiction to alcohol was one a very valuable thing, to be honest. Think about it. You can eat ALL the dang fermented berries you want and not puke. Jeez. Maybe Bipolar is ALSO useful dude, I would be the clan medicine woman and heal people (you can in psychosis, I am NOT KIDDING EITHER) and I could just be cray cray the rest of the time and my clan would care for me, I would have no boss but my Creator and no one would say mean stuff about me because they would fear my evil EYE.

Oh man I got to go, THIGNS TO DO.
Anna

Anna

 

[Territoo]

One of the key important factors is that not all addicts necessarily want to quit so they don't try to, or if they do, they possess neither the means nor the knowledge required to try it properly so then, what chance do they have to stay quit, and, if they experience withdrawal symptoms so badly that they don't actually even have to try to quit to experience these horrific symptoms anyway, then seriously what's your point? Do you mean to tell me that the fact they already are well aware that they can't see how to stay quit is not a valid reason for them to not want to try to quit? In the vast majority of cases they just don't see how it would be at all possible for them to quit and stay quit after that, even if they still have at least some hope for a better future buried someplace deep down in the back of their head.

They associate the thought of quitting with feeling so overwhelmingly miserable that not wanting to quit essentially becomes the only effective way for them to not have to deal with that feeling, i.e. to escape from feeling sick and tormented with agony by continuing the old habit of getting their next "fix". The simple fact you don't have any sympathy for that is the core reason why you're obviously not helping them. It's because you fail to see that which is required to help them. In fact locking them up behind closed doors in rehab very often also fails, in part because rehab is where they typically meet other addicts who encourage them to relapse. If there was more sympathy, maybe people like Amy Winehouse would be alive today. R.I.P. Amy

Have you ever been addicted to drugs or alcohol? Have you ever gone through rehab? At some point the addict reaches rock bottom and knows he needs to quit. He just might not know how. Recovery is a long, painful, lifelong process, often with setbacks. That doesn't change the need to quit. Sadly, many never make it to recovery, but that doesn't mean we stop trying to help as many as we can. I was addicted to alcohol and had relapsed and had to go through recovery again. And no, rehab isn't a group of addicts encouraging you to stay addicted.

 

[Javichu]

Been reading this thread and i wanted to post sooner but havent had much time to do so lately,just short posts once in a while but just now i put my pops in bed and while listening to some 80's music to relax a bit i thought i would post my story.

Ok so since i was 13 or so ive had really bad allergies,now it's under control and only once in a while it flares up so i take a pill and im all better but when i was younger it was bad.
I had to get a special shot every week and atleast once a week i had to miss school,that is how bad it was.

So anyway,back in the day when in this occasion that my allergies got bad they gave me an inhaler (ventolin)
During my younger years i barely used it but fast forward to my mid 20's and i was using that like if my life depended on it and it kinda did (at least in a mental way)

I do have allergies but not a hint of asthma,nothing...zilch,nada.
But mentally i would close up,i had difficulty breathing and i had to use the inhaler,now keep in mind an inhaler (the one i used) is supposed to last you 15 days (minimum) but in my case i used one every 2 days or so...
yeah i know...i can say i was addicted to that crap.
Now when i say addicted its because my mind was telling me i needed that to breathe...not that i got high or i found it enjoyable.
On some rare occasions when i didnt have a ventolin inhaler on me i would have difficulty breathing,even some times i would have to go to the emergency room and have them put the mask with oxygen on me.

Now this was getting out of hand and the doctors didn't know what to make of it because,well maybe now some people have gone thru it but back then? nope,it was the first time they heard of someone being addicted to an inhaler for asthma.

I want to be perfectly clear,this was not an addiction to something that made me feel good...only reason i used the damn inhaler is because i couldnt breathe and my mind was telling me to use it.

Back in the day i had my own bussiness where i did solicitor type work for brits,scotish and irish that came to Spain to live,so i hired some people and asked my mom (rip mom,miss you everyday) to take care of my office while i got the help i needed.

Found a clinic in Spain that dealt with addictions,best one in the country actually,private but i made a ton of money back then so i could afford it.

Went to see them a couple of time and then decided to check in.
Now keep in mind these guys thought i was telling them bs about my ventolin addiction,they never heard about it and most of the people there were there because of addictions to drugs,coke,hash and weed mostly.

We each had our own room and 2 daily meetings with the doctors,funny thing is that the second day we had a ''group'' session where everyone got up,said their name and what addiction they had,like you see in the movies basically.
So one gets up and says hey im tim and im addicted to coke,second one gets up my name is timmy and im here for hash and then i get up and im hey my name is Javier and im addicted to ventolin (asthma inhaler)
should have seen the faces of everyone there...they were like WTH!!! this has to be a joke...but no it wasnt.

Took the doctors a month to actually believe my story,i mean they tried to ration my daily usage of the inhaler but i would start to have trouble breathing so i asked for it,they said no...and i kept asking.
Basically like an addict trying to get whatever he needs,then is when the doctors started to believe me,that and all the bloodwork they got back.
They took blood all the time because they thought i would be addicted to some sort of recreational drug,even surprise tests when i was allowed to go out saturdays afternoon with my mom to grab a bite and maybe go shopping.

After a month of them seeing that my behaviour was like an addicts behaviour when it came to the use of the inhaler and that my blood tests came all negative then its when they actually believed that what i was telling them was true.

All tests they did to see if i had asthma were negative,treadmill walking/running (out of breath a bit because i wasnt in the best shape hehe but within normal non asthamic parameters,oxygen saturation on point always perfect,x-rays,etc,etc...everything that could indicate asthma came back negative.

Well,i spent there 6 whole months (got into tai chi which helped me alot) and thank god after that time i never had to use the inhaler again.

Now i still had anxiety crisis once in a while where i had trouble breathing,maybe once every two months or so,would go to the emergency room (they already had my case files) would lay me down,give me something to mellow me along with some oxygen and an hour later i would be out the door.
Never kept an inhaler at home and i havent used one ever since.

Couple of years later the clinic got in contact with me and they asked permission to do some more tests since they wanted to write a paper on me,i said sure maybe it can help someone.
They did some weird test involving rem sleep,brain waves (weird looking helmet with some cables atached to it) similar to a EEG.
The thing is that i have a spike once in a while that is the one that is guilty of my anxiety problems,has to do with an injection they gave my mother when she was pregnant with me.

I do lead a normal life,but yeah once in a while i do get those ''spikes'',but over the years ive developed some things that work for me,tai chi,special playlists,go running and lately vaping (works better than cigs,go figure),and believe it or not but legos help me relax and lot and get thru that anxiety spike.

Docs in the study they published said that my weird spiky brain wave could be the cause of my anxiety and me latching to the asthma inhaler (even thou i dont have a hint of asthma) to keep me breathing because i did believe i was going to die because i couldnt breathe and I DID NEED the inahler to keep me alive.

Well anyway,i know this is a lot to read but i thought it would be interesting for the topic of this thread.
Yes i was an addict,even thou i wasnt addicted to a substance that made me feel good,wasnt a recreational drug it was just an inhaler that i ''thought'' i needed to breathe.

Thanks for reading folks,sorry for the long post hehe
cheers

p.s. had a busy day,tired today so sorry if any typos or grammatical errors,did the best i could and you all know english isnt my native language

 

[UncLeJunkLe]

Its completely pointless to try to educate a person about vaping if they don't want to understand, I've tried believe me.
Because of all the hype in the press etcetera people will form their own opinions and you always get the hard core that think they know best, for instance, try explaining what e juice is made with, especially diy, they just won't believe you because they don't want to

I came to that same conclusion. It's not just vaping though, it anything.

 

[dripster]

Have you ever been addicted to drugs or alcohol? Have you ever gone through rehab? At some point the addict reaches rock bottom and knows he needs to quit. He just might not know how. Recovery is a long, painful, lifelong process, often with setbacks. That doesn't change the need to quit. Sadly, many never make it to recovery, but that doesn't mean we stop trying to help as many as we can. I was addicted to alcohol and had relapsed and had to go through recovery again. And no, rehab isn't a group of addicts encouraging you to stay addicted.

No, aside from smoking I haven't been addicted to any other drugs or alcohol, and I haven't gone through rehab. But I never said they don't know they need to quit. I'm sure most of them do know that's what they need, in many cases they know it long before they hit rock bottom. (I knew I needed to quit, but still nevertheless I never really wanted to, excepting only one time which didn't go well.) Unfortunately however, they usually also already know that it is a long, painful, lifelong process, often with setbacks, and, that in fact is precisely what's causing them to not want to quit. They can change their mind about that, but it usually doesn't take very long before they change their mind again as a direct result from the fact it is so painful. (And this is what also happened to me once, and I never changed my mind again after that, despite a little over a decade later I effortlessy made the instantaneous sudden switch to vaping.) Frequently changing their mind is what makes them feel like it drives them nuts, which causes even more pain because they can't cope with the stress of feeling like they're driving theirself nuts in this manner. More pain, which translates to one more reason for them to not want to quit, and that is also in addition to no longer wanting to change their mind about not wanting to quit, in spite of knowing they need to quit.

So it's a vicious circle, and, it's a downward spiral staircase because the withdrawal symptoms grow worse and worse each time losing touch with reality, further and further with every step because reality translates to more pain, more suffering. And yes, in many cases rehab is a place where, after they get out of there, the first thing they do next is to get together with another addict who also was in there, and that causes them to immediately relapse. ...... addicts very often know. I know because it's what they testify, I've listened to them very carefully on multiple occasions, and I've studied the basics enough to know that what they say is true. I've also been friends with an alcoholic for a couple years until he died.

 

[smacuser]

tl;dr