Vapor Flask V3 DNA40 Clone thread

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Quantum Mech

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Thanks!

So yup, there be a tank with a sensor on it!



But what kind of sensor?? @Quantum Mech ?

I will post this in the Innokin Thread, we should discuss in detail there!

Very interesting indeed - could it really allow rebuildables? Or are these just prototypes of the coil heads they will use.

Expect that's a Thermocouple

Small size / fast response
 

AtmizrOpin

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Man....... I was slightly holding on to the idea that they made a less intrusive way of measuring the temp. Oh well, to me it looks like you can by pre made coils with any type of wire as long as it has their sensor. At least that's what those zip lock bags filled with coils with the cotton hanging out of them lead me to believe. I wish that friggin camera man would zoom in on the coils and sho us what the 510 looks like, even if it is a 510 there using.
 
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TheBloke

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Man....... I was slightly holding on to the idea that they made a less intrusive way of measuring the temp. Oh well, to me it looks like you can by pre made coils with any type of wire as long as it has their sensor. At least that's what those zip lock bags filled with coils with the cotton hanging out of them lead me to believe. I wish that friggin camera man would zoom in on the coils and sho us what the 510 looks like, even if it is a 510 there using.

Check out the Innokin thread I posted lots of speculation about the 510 there.

My hope was that it would be a normal 510 + extra wires for the sensor, allowing backwards compat and theoretically allowing the use of those extra wires for future purposes. Then they could make that a standard for other mod/atty makers to follow, allowing full control of attys and the passing of data - loads of possibilities from that.

But it's far more likely, sadly, that they'll go for some custom proprietary thing that might not even have a 510. Though that would mean a mod that only works with one or few tanks, which wouldn't be popular, so at the least I'd expect 510 backwards compat. But I doubt they'll try and make an open spec for uses beyond the temp sensor.
 

Mooch

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    Expect that's a Thermocouple

    Small size / fast response

    I would agree. More expensive than a thermistor but they need the repsonse time here.
    Or, perhaps a second parallel wrap of Kanthal that they monitor for resistance instead? More to heat up but it solves a lot of problems.

    [edit] or perhaps laying the coil along a strand of Kanthal? A lot more compact and easier to fire. A thermocouple has to touch the coil anyway so perhaps they're using the known characteristics of Kanthal instead?...cheaper too.
     
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    Tpat591

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    Hey believe me, if there wasn't any profit in this for them they really wouldn't do it. All she did was order a bunch because people were asking about it. You and I can order 5pcs just as easy so it's not like she "went out of her way" to get them. Of course I appreciate that they're planning on selling them but she didn't specifically order them for the people who contacted her. That would mean everyone asking about it would have made a pre-order commitment without knowing about it. TheBloke's the one who had most contact with her but he's also buying one from Quantum Mech instead. Don't feel sorry for them, the ten they've ordered will sell like hot cakes for that price.

    Pretty much this... why dont we just do a group buy!? There's got to be more than enough people who would go in on it. (I have no idea how the whole GB procedure works here though...)

    Yup I agree completely. Doris and Focal are responsive and it's nice communicating with them, but they don't do these things out of the goodness of their heart. If we don't take up our chance of a reservation they will sell their 10 unit sample in hours. And we don't even have a reservation at the moment, she offered us the chance of getting one, with a further email, to thank us for the suggestions - it's her offering to ensure we get one, not us helping her sell them.

    In my case I arranged to get one from Quantum back when Doris was still saying it wasn't looking likely, and that means I get it for $50 in a week instead of $70 in 9-10 days. Plus of course @Quantum Mech will be providing excellent UK-based warranty and after-sales care. (I'm kidding :) )

    I'll buy one from her as soon as the resistance problems are fixed; I don't want three with the low resistance, but I certainly want at least one that doesn't have it, and it's very unlikely that Quantum's batch will have the fix.

    Each of you (and a few others) contacted Doris and gave her every impression that if she stocked the SXK on your behalf, you would purchase one from her. (after she let it be known that she could not meet the price and had chosen not to stock it)

    While you may feel that you have no obligation what so ever to her to purchase them from her now that she has fulfilled her side of this exchange because you found it cheaper somewhere else and be correct, you may also find yourself wanting to get the next new thing a little further down the road and wanting to contact Doris to again ask her for her help in stocking that too or to help you with something else dear to you.

    Really hope that works out for you then, because if I was Doris, I'm not sure I would go out of my way to help you at that point.

    I know I have no right to be upset but I was the one who initially contacted Doris & explained the FT SXK situation and told her that while I was not interested in one myself, several ECF members were and I asked her to help you all out. I'm happy Bloke took the reins from there with Doris to purse it further, but still feel like I have let Doris down.
     
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    dwcraig1

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    When he fires the 0.2Ω coil at 60 watts and only get 41 is because the top plate isn't well grounded the the main body.
    Or the threads that the battery cap screw into are not clean. One or the other or both most likely.
    EDIT: Rather than changing the above post let me just say it's incorrect. It hit the 16 amp limit that was advertised as a 20 amp limit.
     
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    Croak

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    Right behind you...
    When he fires the 0.2Ω coil at 60 watts and only get 41 is because the top plate isn't well grounded the the main body.
    Or the threads that the battery cap screw into are not clean. One or the other or both most likely.
    Naw. He's just hitting the 16 amp limit of the board. And also pretty good proof that the lower than expected resistance reading on that board is not just visual, since the Ohm's Law math works out (assuming it has the same amp limit as a DNA40 or Rayn).

    Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk
     

    Matty316

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    But the TCR adjustment makes up for that many times over for anyone who wants super-accurate TC in general, and especially to use wires other than Ni200 - as I would recommend everyone should try.)

    I've been thinking about trying titanium wire for some time now but have not been able to find a uk supplyer. I don't suppose you could recommend a supplyer to me could you? Also what would be a good gauge to start at? I'm using 28 gauge ni200 right now.

    Cheers.
     

    TheBloke

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    I've been thinking about trying titanium wire for some time now but have not been able to find a uk supplyer. I don't suppose you could recommend a supplyer to me could you? Also what would be a good gauge to start at? I'm using 28 gauge ni200 right now.

    Cheers.

    I got mine from Zivipf in Germany. However a little over two weeks ago I emailed my favourite UK supplier, Crazy Wire (wireandstuff.co.uk) and persuaded them to start stocking Titanium Grade 1 in vaping sizes - they have it already, but no thinner than 21G which is huge.

    They had not stocked it to date because they thought it was unsafe, but once I told them Joyetech were briniging out a Ti mod and Ti coils and that SXK and Dicodes already had mods allowing its specific use, they said they would start producing it immediately. Well, he said it would take about two weeks - we're past that now, so I'm hoping it'll be any day now.

    If you've never used Crazy Wire before, PM me as I can Refer a Friend you and we both get 15% discount for life.
     

    TheBloke

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    Naw. He's just hitting the 16 amp limit of the board. And also pretty good proof that the lower than expected resistance reading on that board is not just visual, since the Ohm's Law math works out (assuming it has the same amp limit as a DNA40 or Rayn).

    Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

    Amp limit is 20A according to manual of my 50W Flask - however I don't know if this would differ in a single battery Zero (and/or if it differs in the 60W Flask.) I suppose given the Flask can run single battery it should be the same, but not guaranteed.

    But yeah we do think the low ohms also applies to the voltage, though in the test we had it wasn't quite as low as displayed. Something like: 0.80Ω displayed, 0.96Ω real, voltage displayed when firing works out to 0.84Ω. Still doesn't quite answer the question given the voltage didn't match either figure, but it was much closer to the displayed/low value than the real value, so we think it's used for voltage calcs as well - we know for sure it's used for TC calcs, as the TP cuts in at the point appropriate for the displayed resistance, not actual resistance hence thus needing TCR / NP adjustments to fix the overall calculation.
     

    dwcraig1

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    Naw. He's just hitting the 16 amp limit of the board. And also pretty good proof that the lower than expected resistance reading on that board is not just visual, since the Ohm's Law math works out (assuming it has the same amp limit as a DNA40 or Rayn).

    Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk
    That's just 17.3 amps, I doubt it would be that low on the watts
    I think the SXK is more than 16 amps
    I am using the actual resistance of the coil and not what the display read so I'm off a bit.
    It reminded me of my own situation the day I got my SXK

    EDIT:
    So I just did a test of it and sure enough I got 40 watts with my load that reads 0.16Ω (16 amp limit)
     
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    TheBloke

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    Each of you (and a few others) contacted Doris and gave her every impression that if she stocked the SXK on your behalf, you would purchase one from her. (after she let it be known that she could not meet the price and had chosen not to stock it)

    While you may feel that you have no obligation what so ever to her to purchase them from her now that she has fulfilled her side of this exchange because you found it cheaper somewhere else and be correct, you may also find yourself wanting to get the next new thing a little further down the road and wanting to contact Doris to again ask her for her help in stocking that too or to help you with something else dear to you.

    Really hope that works out for you then, because if I was Doris, I'm not sure I would go out of my way to help you at that point.

    I know I have no right to be upset but I was the one who initially contacted Doris & explained the FT SXK situation and told her that while I was not interested in one myself, several ECF members were and I asked her to help you all out. I'm happy Bloke took the reins from there with Doris to purse it further, but still feel like I have let Doris down.

    I am honestly very sorry you feel that way. But I'm afraid I can't agree at all.

    I did say to Doris I wanted to buy a second one, which was true at the time. But I also said that many other people wanted to buy them, which was true then and remains true. We have new enquiries nearly every day from people wanting to know where they can get one - some regular, many posting in the thread for the first time. Focal will sell their sample, and when they have full stock they will sell those as well. The demand is high. The individual purchases of a couple of us are inconsequential.

    In fact, we did her a favour more than she did us one. We persisted and indicated demand. She felt the price was too high, we informed her otherwise. We let her know that the higher price would sell units, and that is correct. Focal will sell profitable units that they would not have otherwise as a result of our actions. They will benefit, and everyone who buys from Focal will benefit.

    It was nearly two weeks ago I emailed Doris to say I wanted to buy a second and was told she did not plan to stock them; what in your view would be the correct amount of time for me to wait before buying from someone else? Two weeks? A month? Six months? If not six months, why any time at all? Must @yo han buy the mod now, since he's realised it has a defect, because he asked Doris if she would stock it prior to knowing that?

    Had I had the slightest impression that I was committing to a promise in that statement, I would not have made it. But it was never a promise, and I don't believe Doris could ever have taken it as such. My exact words were "I wanted to buy another at 60W, but now FastTech have removed all VS and VF products. I am writing to ask if you have plans to stock the VaporFlask. I want to get a second and I know of many other people who would like to get this as well." I'm sorry, but I just don't see a firm commitment to purchase in there, nor any expectation of one in any of her responses.

    And that's the key point - Doris does not for a moment believe there's an obligation. Had her reply to me been "We'll stock them in 48 hours - I will open an order for you once it is stocked", then you might be reading her correctly. In fact she said "If you need me to reserve one for you, please just simply reply email in 12 hours after we list it ". Not only is there clearly no obligation to buy, but she's not even doing me a big favour - I need to contact her again if I want to reserve one, and if I happen to miss that 12 hour window, then my bad luck; I won't get one of those flasks I worked hard to get her to stock.

    She won't even hold it for more than 12 hours, do you really think she's thinking I have an obligation to buy one?

    As we said before, Doris' decision is a business decision. She hasn't 'helped us' particularly - she may enjoy happy customers, but that was not the driver for her decision. She didn't stock the product before because she thought it would be too expensive versus FT, she stocks it now because she's realised it will sell and that she is not competing with anyone right now; in her first emails she did not even seem to know that FT were no longer stocking it. Our interventions helped her understand levels of demand, and willingness to pay a certain price. For that she is justifiably grateful to us, and willing to reserve us a unit for 12 hours, should we want one. That's a reasonable exchange. She has gained a new market - she will sell them, as we told her she would . We have gained the chance to get one of the first units, if we hurry. Frankly I think she's not even done as much as she could, but that's fine.

    As I say, I'm genuinely sorry you feel like that but I also feel unequivocally that you have no reason to. No-one has been wronged, everyone is a winner. Doris will stock any future products we ask of her if sufficient demand is demonstrated and she believes them to be profitable to the company - just as now.
     
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    dwcraig1

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    Amp limit is 20A according to manual of my 50W Flask - however I don't know if this would differ in a single battery Zero (and/or if it differs in the 60W Flask.) I suppose given the Flask can run single battery it should be the same, but not guaranteed.

    But yeah we do think the low ohms also applies to the voltage, though in the test we had it wasn't quite as low as displayed. Something like: 0.80Ω displayed, 0.96Ω real, voltage displayed when firing works out to 0.84Ω. Still doesn't quite answer the question given the voltage didn't match either figure, but it was much closer to the displayed/low value than the real value, so we think it's used for voltage calcs as well - we know for sure it's used for TC calcs, as the TP cuts in at the point appropriate for the displayed resistance, not actual resistance hence thus needing TCR / NP adjustments to fix the overall calculation.
    My test say no to 20 amps, I checked the voltage drop between the battery caps and the 510 housing as well as between one of the top plate screws and the 510 housing, no problem there. It must be 16 amps.
    It will fire a coil that reads 0.29Ω on the display and display 60 watts. I should have checked the voltage on the posts but didn't, I sure it would be a bit lower than what the screen said.
    I think I did that a couple of days back and figured 52 watts actual.
     
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    Croak

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    Right behind you...
    That's just 17.3 amps, I doubt it would be that low on the watts
    I think the SXK is more than 16 amps
    I am using the actual resistance of the coil and not what the display read so I'm off a bit.
    It reminded me of my own situation the day I got my SXK
    So I just did a test of it and sure enough I got 40 watts with my load that reads 0.16Ω

    The math on that Geeco in the video at the displayed resistance is bang on for a 16 amp limit though. Bang on.

    A real DNA40 allows up to 23 amps for an instant (preheat) in TC mode, but it won't exceed 16 amps in normal mode. That's why the non-TC resistance low limit spec is 0.16 ohms, which is just a hair under 16 amps at 40 watts. Even with Ni200, it'll soft limit low resistance loads.
     

    dwcraig1

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    The math on that Geeco in the video at the displayed resistance is bang on for a 16 amp limit though. Bang on.

    A real DNA40 allows up to 23 amps for an instant (preheat) in TC mode, but it won't exceed 16 amps in normal mode. That's why the non-TC resistance low limit spec is 0.16 ohms, which is just a hair under 16 amps at 40 watts. Even with Ni200, it'll soft limit low resistance loads.
    I agree
     

    Tpat591

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    I am honestly very sorry you feel that way. But I'm afraid I can't agree at all.

    I did say to Doris I wanted to buy a second one, which was true at the time. But I also said that many other people wanted to buy them, which was true then and remains true. We have new enquiries nearly every day from people wanting to know where they can get one - some regular, many posting in the thread for the first time. Focal will sell their sample, and when they have full stock they will sell those as well. The demand is high. The individual purchases of a couple of us are inconsequential.

    In fact, we did her a favour more than she did us one. We persisted and indicated demand. She felt the price was too high, we informed her otherwise. We let her know that the higher price would sell units, and that is correct. Focal will sell profitable units that they would not have otherwise as a result of our actions. They will benefit, and everyone who buys from Focal will benefit.

    It was nearly two weeks ago I emailed Doris to say I wanted to buy a second and was told she did not plan to stock them; what in your view would be the correct amount of time for me to wait before buying from someone else? Two weeks? A month? Six months? If not six months, why any time at all? Must @yo han buy the mod now, since he's realised it has a defect, because he asked Doris if she would stock it prior to knowing that?

    Had I had the slightest impression that I was committing to a promise in that statement, I would not have made it. But it was never a promise, and I don't believe Doris could ever have taken it as such. My exact words were "I wanted to buy another at 60W, but now FastTech have removed all VS and VF products. I am writing to ask if you have plans to stock the VaporFlask. I want to get a second and I know of many other people who would like to get this as well." I'm sorry, but I just don't see a firm commitment to purchase in there, nor any expectation of one in any of her responses.

    And that's the key point - Doris does not for a moment believe there's an obligation. Had her reply to me been "We'll stock them in 48 hours - I will open an order for you once it is stocked", then you might be reading her correctly. In fact she said "If you need me to reserve one for you, please just simply reply email in 12 hours after we list it ". Not only is there clearly no obligation to buy, but she's not even doing me a big favour - I need to contact her again if I want to reserve one, and if I happen to miss that 12 hour window, then my bad luck; I won't get one of those flasks I worked hard to get her to stock.

    She won't even hold it for more than 12 hours, do you really think she's thinking I have an obligation to buy one?

    As we said before, Doris' decision is a business decision. She hasn't 'helped us' particularly - she may enjoy happy customers, but that was not the driver for her decision. She didn't stock the product before because she thought it would be too expensive versus FT, she stocks it now because she's realised it will sell and that she is not competing with anyone right now; in her first emails she did not even seem to know that FT were no longer stocking it. Our interventions helped her understand levels of demand, and willingness to pay a certain price. For that she is justifiably grateful to us, and willing to reserve us a unit for 12 hours, should we want one. That's a reasonable exchange. She has gained a new market - she will sell them, as we told her she would . We have gained the chance to get one of the first units, if we hurry. Frankly I think she's not even done as much as she could, but that's fine.

    As I say, I'm genuinely sorry you feel like that but I also feel unequivocally that you have no reason to. No-one has been wronged, everyone is a winner. Doris will stock any future products we ask of her if sufficient demand is demonstrated and she believes them to be profitable to the company - just as now.
    Whatever you gotta tell yourself to make yourself feel good. Especially love the part about how you got her to order the units for you by convincing her that setting a higher unit price than she felt they would sell for would sell more units when it is a price that you yourself aren't willing to pay after she has acquired the products at their expense for you. Legally you are entirely correct in everything you have just stated, however We were obviously taught differently where morality is concerned.

    I have already emailed her to apologize for my involvement in this matter and I know she stepped out of her normal guidelines of running this as a mini special interest group buy requiring you to commit to purchase prior to moving forward to product acquisition in an attempt to service your needs in this instance and I personally will be very surprised if you see her take that kind of professional risk to do that again. I just hope this has not placed her in any jeopardy.

    Lets just agree to disagree and call it a learning experience all the way around.
     
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