Vapping banned at work, but the ignorant statements...

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DeliciousClouds

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I understand where Jman8 is coming from. The body is a complex organism and many, many factors can contribute to the formation of disease, of which smoking is only one. When you down a bottle of poison, the resulting affliction has a clear cause. With smoking it's much more obtuse. Yes it's not good for your lungs, nor your brain or your heart. But neither are lack of exercise, too much exercise, eating too many refined carbs and other food substances which may or may not be chemical in nature, not getting enough vitamins, working in an area with lots of air-pollution, having a stressful of physically demanding job, and of course genetics.

I can see how that makes it hard to define as how precisely the act of smoking contributes to the death toll.
 
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zoiDman

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I understand where Jman8 is coming from. The body is a complex organism and many, many factors can contribute to the formation of disease, of which smoking is only one. When you down a bottle of poison, the resulting affliction has a clear cause. With smoking it's much more obtuse. Yes it's not good for your lungs, nor your brain or your heart. But neither are lack of exercise, too much exercise, eating too many refined carbs and other food substances which may or may not be chemical in nature, not getting enough vitamins, working in an area with lots of air-pollution, having a stressful of physically demanding job, etc etc.

I can see how that makes it hard to define as how precisely the act of smoking contributes to the death toll.

It just seemed a Tad Ironic that Something was being "Skewered" as Not Being Scientific. But there was No Data to Counter the Claim that was Made.
 

AndriaD

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As a direct result? As if smoking alone was primary factor? I would say less than 1000. And would be, in my mind, heavy abusers (like 3 PAD). I could see it being less for some people (even less than a PAD), but then not sure if that would constitute 'direct result' as I would think other factors were contributing to why this person passed early on.

I also do not subscribe to idea that smoking causes body ailments. I understand it as correlation, not causation.



Severely? I would go with 1% to 5%. One person's version of "severe" may be another person's version of "best day of the past year."

But quality of life is another thing I think that gets lost in this premature death topic. So, you lived to be 85 years old, but lead by all accounts (including your own) a fairly boring life, while rock gods who died at age 27 (all of whom were smokers) got to suck out the marrow of life.

Not to mention the people who are on record living to 115 years of age and smoked 2 a day up until they turned 105 years old, when they realized, now might be a good time to cut that out. Ya know, now that I'm at 105 years of age.


Yes I think I'd go along with you on pretty much all of this. The fact which seems to be completely overlooked is that cancer, at bottom, is a genetic disorder -- something goes awry in the cellular dna which causes it to not "turn off" or kill the cell in its appropriate time frame, thus leading to tumor-type, runaway growth. And yes, the heat, and the various chemicals, in cigarette smoke can be a substantial factor in this type of problem, but I think primarily in the case where there are other causative factors -- other chemical exposures, one's genetic legacy from one's forebears, etc. COPD, previously referred to as emphysema, is another leading cause of death among smokers, and I believe it too is a disorder which tends to run in families -- another genetic problem? And if one has this little "gift" in one's dna, and is a smoker, then it would stand to reason that one might at some point be afflicted with the actual disease.

I guess the main thing is that no one can escape these genetic legacies, and certainly no one can escape the environmental causative factors -- solar radiation being the foremost, but all the petrochemical pollution being a strong contender for 2nd place. And with all these contributing factors, then smoking might just be the straw that breaks the figurative camel's back, and leads directly to these various dna factors achieving critical mass so that disease develops. But of course they never do mention any of that -- it's just "Smoking causes cancer. So just stop." So simplistic, like we're all little machines with 'stop' buttons attached to our favorite vices.

Andria
 

AndriaD

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"The CDC says" does not equal scientific claim.
And as CDC has been shown to be biased against eCigs based on (essentially) junk science, then their credibility on all other matters, but particularly tobacco related data, is questionable. The CDC link is information about data, thus not really all that challenging to skewer. But if looking at say 2nd link cited in footnotes, I find this sort of information in that report:



Which is the type of info that I think is ripe for skewering. These reports aren't saying, as I think is often the understanding, that actual smokers are dying (while smoking) each year, and our data tracks that. Instead, it is tracking mortality rates of all people, and then taking data from surveys to determine how many of those people (sampled) are, or ever were, smokers (of at least 100 in their lifetime). Or as put in another part of this report:



So, think how many reading this on ECF would constitute as "current smokers" under this criteria. And my question would be is this scientific to classify in this manner? Or is it a way to cook the numbers to make the problem seem worse than it is? As this study concludes with recommendation for cessation (via political means), it ought to be noted that a bias is inherent.

Moreover, I would just note what I previously alluded to which is this is actually tracking rates of deaths (of any sort) and suggesting that "current smokers" are equal in risk to those rates. It is really (really really) about risk of premature death (from several causes) and then matching up data that chooses to classify who is a smoker and who is not with that risk (and not necessarily with actual mortality).

Thus, also not too challenging to skewer in light of soundbite rhetoric that wants to suggest hundreds of thousands of people die each year from smoking (and smoking alone).

Here's the thing I don't get at all. You're probably familiar with the adage "one 'oh [poop]' cancels 10 (or 100 or a 1000) 'attaboys'" -- does the CDC not understand, or just not CARE, than toeing this political line and issuing statements regarding e-cigs which are just plain WRONG, makes EVERY SINGLE THING THEY DO come under suspicion? I think this is very unfortunate, because they do a lot of worthy work in the cause of understanding and controlling disease -- but with this single stance, they're undermining every bit of useful work they've ever done.

To me, that's sad, and we, the PEOPLE, really ought not to allow it.

Andria
 

Jman8

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OK...

So what are you Basing this On?

You "Skewered" the CDC for not being Scientific in their Approach to Presenting Numbers. Just curious where you are Getting your Data?

So how many people do You think Die Prematurely every year as a Direct Result of Smoking?

Also, How many people do You think have a Severely Diminished Quality of Life as Direct Result of Smoking as a Percentage to All Smokers?

Hopefully the bolding part helps you with understanding what I'm basing my responses on.

I think "direct result of smoking" hasn't really been studied since this sort of data has been promulgated to the masses. And if it were, and all other factors were put in proper perspective, then it would be heavy abuse that would be criteria for "direct result" of smoking.

With the data as it is now determined, once vapers start dying and surveys are done, it will be shown that those "current smokers" will be at lots of risk for a whole lot of ailments. Probably could do the same thing with "water" going with this sort of methodology.

All people surveyed, that had drank at least 3 cups of water in their life, have all died.

Well, according to 'science.'
 

Jman8

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it's just "Smoking causes cancer. So just stop." So simplistic, like we're all little machines with 'stop' buttons attached to our favorite vices.

P.S. If did stop 4 years ago, and lived an otherwise healthy life, but are now terminally ill, we will attribute that 100% to you being a "current smoker."

Completed fair and totally unbiased.
 

Jman8

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does the CDC not understand, or just not CARE, than toeing this political line and issuing statements regarding e-cigs which are just plain WRONG, makes EVERY SINGLE THING THEY DO come under suspicion?

If I do research on "smoking kills 400,000 people yearly" all the sources cited have come out against vaping and/or are citing the sources that have come out against eCigs. Which is based on "we don't know long term effects" but pay no attention to that little nugget of ignorance. Instead focus on the undeniable, naive, 'fact' that smokers die from smoking and trust us on this data that no one ever really bothers to look at methodology and just spout off as if God wrote this on a stone tablet somewhere and is to be treated as gospel. Cause, ya know, that's how science works.
 

AndriaD

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If I do research on "smoking kills 400,000 people yearly" all the sources cited have come out against vaping and/or are citing the sources that have come out against eCigs. Which is based on "we don't know long term effects" but pay no attention to that little nugget of ignorance. Instead focus on the undeniable, naive, 'fact' that smokers die from smoking and trust us on this data that no one ever really bothers to look at methodology and just spout off as if God wrote this on a stone tablet somewhere and is to be treated as gospel. Cause, ya know, that's how science works.

Geez... all I can think of as a response to all of that is :facepalm:.

What we need is a HUGE demonstration right outside the CDC with vaping people holding giant placards "e-cigs saved my life" "I can breathe now that I vape instead of smoke" "I quit smoking using e-cigs" etc. And call the press before it happens, so it will get as much coverage as all the inane things the ANTZ are saying. Some people might get arrested, they do tend to take the CDC's security very seriously, but that would serve to draw even MORE attention to the fact that the CDC is just being STUPID, political money-grubbing plodders who value their own ill-informed opinions far more highly than they do SCIENCE,.

Andria
 

zoiDman

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Hopefully the bolding part helps you with understanding what I'm basing my responses on.

I think "direct result of smoking" hasn't really been studied since this sort of data has been promulgated to the masses. And if it were, and all other factors were put in proper perspective, then it would be heavy abuse that would be criteria for "direct result" of smoking.

With the data as it is now determined, once vapers start dying and surveys are done, it will be shown that those "current smokers" will be at lots of risk for a whole lot of ailments. Probably could do the same thing with "water" going with this sort of methodology.

All people surveyed, that had drank at least 3 cups of water in their life, have all died.

Well, according to 'science.'

So what you are Basically saying is you have No Scientific Evidence to support the Numbers that you Posted.
 

Jman8

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So what you are Basically saying is you have No Scientific Evidence to support the Numbers that you Posted.

Nope. But wasn't asked to provide that. If I were, I'd take the millions given to the other side (that has bias, and isn't really utilizing science) and I'd do actual studies on actual data from hypotheses that are less biased.
 

zoiDman

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Nope. But wasn't asked to provide that. If I were, I'd take the millions given to the other side (that has bias, and isn't really utilizing science) and I'd do actual studies on actual data from hypotheses that are less biased.

OK... So a Person can just Post Any Number they want to "Skewer" something that they say is Not Scientifically Based.

Doesn't seem like a very Scientific approach to me.
 

Jman8

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OK... So a Person can just Post Any Number they want to "Skewer" something that they say is Not Scientifically Based.

My response to your question asking "what do you think" wasn't part of the skewering that I already did on this thread.

Doesn't seem like a very Scientific approach to me.

That wasn't asked by you, to me. Hence why you aren't getting the scientific approach. Again, that apparently takes millions of dollars to pull that off, seeing that science nowadays needs millions to justify it as 'credible.'

Takes zero dollars to skewer the scientific data put forth and ask reasonable questions about methodology and to point out what looks a lot like erroneous claims trying to pass for 'science.'
 

zoiDman

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My response to your question asking "what do you think" wasn't part of the skewering that I already did on this thread.



That wasn't asked by you, to me. Hence why you aren't getting the scientific approach. Again, that apparently takes millions of dollars to pull that off, seeing that science nowadays needs millions to justify it as 'credible.'

Takes zero dollars to skewer the scientific data put forth and ask reasonable questions about methodology and to point out what looks a lot like erroneous claims trying to pass for 'science.'

That's Fair.
 

AndriaD

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It seems perfectly obvious to me that calling people who have been quit of smoking for up to 5 yrs "current smokers" is NOT scientific whatsoever. Maybe they could make that claim for those who have been quit less than a year, but I can tell you this: I recently had an appendectomy, which entails being general-anesthetized for about 45 minutes -- about 30 minutes longer than a caesarian takes. When I had the caesarian, 10-15 minutes general anesthesia, at the age of 27, I had been a smoker for about 14 yrs, and I was forced to take "breathing treatments" for 3 days before I was released from the hospital, due to the continued wheezing and shortness of breath I suffered after that very brief anesthesia. Recently, as I said, I had that appendectomy, about 45 mins anesthesia, on the day on which I had been completely smoke-free for 110 days, after a previous 39 years of smoking. I did not suffer ONE SINGLE breathing complication, did not wake up coughing and wheezing, and nearly forgot to use my asthma inhaler after I was awake enough to be released -- THE VERY SAME DAY, within 2 hrs of the surgery. AFTER 110 DAYS SMOKE FREE.

Calling 5-yr quit smokers "current smokers" is a pure TRAVESTY, a TRANSPARENT cooking of the numbers to reflect the ideology they support.

Andria
 

zoiDman

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It seems perfectly obvious to me that calling people who have been quit of smoking for up to 5 yrs "current smokers" is NOT scientific whatsoever. Maybe they could make that claim for those who have been quit less than a year, but I can tell you this: I recently had an appendectomy, which entails being general-anesthetized for about 45 minutes -- about 30 minutes longer than a caesarian takes. When I had the caesarian, 10-15 minutes general anesthesia, at the age of 27, I had been a smoker for about 14 yrs, and I was forced to take "breathing treatments" for 3 days before I was released from the hospital, due to the continued wheezing and shortness of breath I suffered after that very brief anesthesia. Recently, as I said, I had that appendectomy, about 45 mins anesthesia, on the day on which I had been completely smoke-free for 110 days, after a previous 39 years of smoking. I did not suffer ONE SINGLE breathing complication, did not wake up coughing and wheezing, and nearly forgot to use my asthma inhaler after I was awake enough to be released -- THE VERY SAME DAY, within 2 hrs of the surgery. AFTER 110 DAYS SMOKE FREE.

Calling 5-yr quit smokers "current smokers" is a pure TRAVESTY, a TRANSPARENT cooking of the numbers to reflect the ideology they support.

Andria

You do Understand why Smoking Death Figures are Over-Estimated don't you?
 

zoiDman

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Umm.. because it suits their political ideology, that Smoking and SmokERS are EVIL and Must Be Persecuted With Lies?

Andria

A Little Cynical Today? LOL

No. The Main reason that Smoking Deaths are Over Exaggerated is so Health Agencies can receive More Funding to do Cancer Research.

Funding for Research/Cures is directly related to how many Deaths something causes. More Deaths = More Funding.
 

AndriaD

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A Little Cynical Today? LOL

No. The Main reason that Smoking Deaths are Over Exaggerated is so Health Agencies can receive More Funding to do Cancer Research.

Funding for Research/Cures is directly related to how many Deaths something causes. More Deaths = More Funding.

Ahh, so THAT's why they don't want us to stop smoking and start vaping... we'll stop dying in such droves, and that hurts their bottom line, right along with BP's whose cancer/COPD drugs won't be so necessary anymore! That's exactly what I've been saying all along -- they actually WANT us to die, and if we stop smoking, not so many of us will, or at least, not as quickly. We'll live long enough to cause the liars all KINDS of problems! :D Hell yes! I've thought all along that BP has a great deal more to lose in this entire hullaballoo than BT does. If e-cigs were NOT "tobacco products," then BT wouldn't have to pony up as much to the states, which would actually reinforce THEIR bottom line.

Also.. I forgot to add, in what I said: "...that Smoking and SmokERS are EVIL and Must Be Persecuted With Lies?" -- "...and if it LOOKS like smoking, we'll just lie and persecute that too!"

So, what we have here are quite a lot of people who'd like to live longer, healthier lives, versus a lot of lying, cheating, death-dealing greedy multibillionaire corporations. But at some point, the truth must out -- that e-cigs save lives, and that is a GOOD thing.

Andria
 

zoiDman

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Ahh, so THAT's why they don't want us to stop smoking and start vaping... we'll stop dying in such droves, and that hurts their bottom line, right along with BP's whose cancer/COPD drugs won't be so necessary anymore! That's exactly what I've been saying all along -- they actually WANT us to die, and if we stop smoking, not so many of us will, or at least, not as quickly. We'll live long enough to cause the liars all KINDS of problems! :D Hell yes! I've thought all along that BP has a great deal more to lose in this entire hullaballoo than BT does. If e-cigs were NOT "tobacco products," then BT wouldn't have to pony up as much to the states, which would actually reinforce THEIR bottom line.

Also.. I forgot to add, in what I said: "...that Smoking and SmokERS are EVIL and Must Be Persecuted With Lies?" -- "...and if it LOOKS like smoking, we'll just lie and persecute that too!"

So, what we have here are quite a lot of people who'd like to live longer, healthier lives, versus a lot of lying, cheating, death-dealing greedy multibillionaire corporations. But at some point, the truth must out -- that e-cigs save lives, and that is a GOOD thing.

Andria

LOL... You're on a Roll Tonight.

BTW - There are a LOT of people who develop Cancer who Never Smoked.
 

WharfRat1976

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I read the 22 pages of the "Drexel Report." I kind of wish I had not. On page 18, it lists the checmicals that Vapors are putting into their lungs in aerosol form. The levels are considered "safe" based on a scale of 10 juxtaposed to the unsafe levels and additional chemicals inhaled by an analog smoking machine.

Any employer that gets their hands on the Drexel Report which was paid for by The CASSA Research Fund would have to ban ecigs in their workplace. The report states: "Burstyn reviewed all of the available chemistry on e-cigarette vapor and liquid and found that the levels reported — even in those studies that were hyped as showing there is a danger — are well below the level that is of concern."

It claims "contaminants in ecig bi-products but at levels that are of no concern to anyone."

Go to page 18 and look at the contaminants then tell me if you were an employer, insuring employees and invitees that you would not ban ecigs in the work place.

Here is a link to the report and CASSA's media release: Breaking News: New study shows no risk from e-cigarette contaminants | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

Here are the key claims of the report:

The list of key conclusions in the paper:

Even when compared to workplace standards for involuntary exposures, and using several conservative (erring on the side of caution) assumptions, the exposures from using e-cigarettes fall well below the threshold for concern for compounds with known toxicity. That is, even ignoring the benefits of e-cigarette use and the fact that the exposure is actively chosen, and even comparing to the levels that are considered unacceptable to people who are not benefiting from the exposure and do not want it, the exposures would not generate concern or call for remedial action.
Expressed concerns about nicotine only apply to vapers who do not wish to consume it; a voluntary (indeed, intentional) exposure is very different from a contaminant.
There is no serious concern about the contaminants such as volatile organic compounds (formaldehyde, acrolein, etc.) in the liquid or produced by heating. While these contaminants are present, they have been detected at problematic levels only in a few studies that apparently were based on unrealistic levels of heating.
The frequently stated concern about contamination of the liquid by a nontrivial quantity of ethylene glycol or diethylene glycol remains based on a single sample of an early technology product (and even this did not rise to the level of health concern) and has not been replicated.
Tobacco-specific nitrosamines (TSNA) are present in trace quantities and pose no more (likely much less) threat to health than TSNAs from modern smokeless tobacco products, which cause no measurable risk for cancer.
Contamination by metals is shown to be at similarly trivial levels that pose no health risk, and the alarmist claims about such contamination are based on unrealistic assumptions about the molecular form of these elements.
The existing literature tends to overestimate the exposures and exaggerate their implications. This is partially due to rhetoric, but also results from technical features. The most important is confusion of the concentration in aerosol, which on its own tells us little about risk to heath, with the relevant and much smaller total exposure to compounds in the aerosol averaged across all air inhaled in the course of a day. There is also clear bias in previous reports in favor of isolated instances of highest level of chemical detected across multiple studies, such that average exposure that can be calculated are higher than true value because they are “missing” all true zeros.
Routine monitoring of liquid chemistry is easier and cheaper than assessment of aerosols. Combined with an understanding of how the chemistry of the liquid affects the chemistry of the aerosol and insights into behavior of vapers, this can serve as a useful tool to ensure the safety of e-cigarettes.
The only unintentional exposures (i.e., not the nicotine) that seem to rise to the level that they are worth further research are the carrier chemicals themselves, propylene glycol and glycerin. This exposure is not known to cause health problems, but the magnitude of the exposure is novel and thus is at the levels for concern based on the lack of reassuring data.
 
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